72 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

Camm2310, on 14 July 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

Hey, could someone link me to the lore behind as to why all different factions are at war please, and why the clans invaded. I've tried searching for this material but it just brings up IS vs Clan balancing topics

Kerensky was an emo tool and decided to take his ball and run away with all of the sub-tools that worshiped his tool-ness. Then, the inner sphere turned into a bunch of Trumps and Clintons until the baby tools of Kerensky came back.

[dervishx5]

Trauglodyte, on 15 July 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

Kerensky was an emo tool and decided to take his ball and run away with all of the sub-tools that worshiped his tool-ness. Then, the inner sphere turned into a bunch of Trumps and Clintons until the baby tools of Kerensky came back.

[ScarecrowES]

dervishx5, on 15 July 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

I have to throw some Godwin out here: the naazis didn't think of themselves as evil either.

In fairness, noone actually suffers under Clan rule. Technicians may be a lower caste than warriors, but they're hardly being thrown to the gas chamber, are they?

In fact, most every man, woman, and child in Clan society is well taken care of as long as they are willing to pull their weight. There really isn't "poverty" per se in Clan culture. There's no concept of wealth. The caste system is just a more formal version of the hierarchy that already exists throughout any other society. The different castes have their own councils and inform the decisions of Clan government. In some Clans, the rigidness of the caste system is virtually non-existent.

Not to mention Clans have better genetics, better health, better technology... your quality of life is likely to be better and for longer than a typical Spheroid.

It's much better to part of the 95% in the Clans than it is in the Inner Sphere.

[Baulven]

You are also confusing a merit based caste society with a regular caste society. In a regular caste you are born and will die within that caste and nothing will change it. In the clans anyone could potentially become a mechwarrior (though canister babies got better gear and training making completion more likely.) While the clans excesses are better detailed I don't think of the Inner Sphere as peace and love hippy land. It's no where near as dark as warhammer 40k, but BT doesn't hold your hand or pretend people aren't people. If you didn't want to play an "evil" person in the universe then likely you would never pilot a mech.

Edited by Baulven, 15 July 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[dervishx5]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

In fairness, noone actually suffers under Clan rule. Technicians may be a lower caste than warriors, but they're hardly being thrown to the gas chamber, are they?

In fact, most every man, woman, and child in Clan society is well taken care of as long as they are willing to pull their weight. There really isn't "poverty" per se in Clan culture. There's no concept of wealth. The caste system is just a more formal version of the hierarchy that already exists throughout any other society. The different castes have their own councils and inform the decisions of Clan government. In some Clans, the rigidness of the caste system is virtually non-existent.

Not to mention Clans have better genetics, better health, better technology... your quality of life is likely to be better and for longer than a typical Spheroid.

It's much better to part of the 95% in the Clans than it is in the Inner Sphere.

Uh... are we reading the same fiction? I've read innumerable examples of suffering under clan rule through all the novels and sourcebooks. Some clans are more fair than others but they're all guilty of discrimination, not to mention all the purging of populations over the years.

I mean the scientists wouldn't have revolted if there wasn't suffering.

Edited by dervishx5, 15 July 2016 - 04:03 PM.

[CK16]

The amount of "All Clans are evil bad guys" in this thread is disturbing at how uneducated people really are to the Btech lore o.O or just informed by Davion Propaganda.

[Walsung]

ScarecrowES, on 14 July 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

Spoken like a spheroid .

come on; Nicholas Kerensky was a straight up fascist dictator with a Machiavellian bent and delusional paranoia and the clans were fairly clearly modeled on Stalinist Russia. With the Wolverine clan trying to hold on to at least some of the original ideals of the star league and being crushed for their recalcitrance. Alexander would have jumped his ship into the sun if he new what the outcome of fleeing the scene would be.

Aleksandrs motivation was to preserve the SLDF against the likely-hood of being broken up by the successor states and being forced to fight their former comrades and potentially being used against civilian populations (and as you see in our own world so many military juntas do such a great job anyway) which puts their return into a pretty appalling context.

Nicholas motivation was to create a culture that maximized preservation of scarce resources and minimize collateral damage in the resource poor environment they found themselves in and reduce the consequences of infighting. Unfortunately he was a malignant narcissist and what you got was a travesty of his fathers intent.

[ScarecrowES]

Walsung, on 15 July 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

come on; Nicholas Kerensky was a straight up fascist dictator with a Machiavellian bent and delusional paranoia and the clans were fairly clearly modeled on Stalinist Russia. With the Wolverine clan trying to hold on to at least some of the original ideals of the star league and being crushed for their recalcitrance. Alexander would have jumped his ship into the sun if he new what the outcome of fleeing the scene would be.

Aleksandrs motivation was to preserve the SLDF against the likely-hood of being broken up by the successor states and being forced to fight their former comrades and potentially being used against civilian populations (and as you see in our own world so many military juntas do such a great job anyway) which puts their return into a pretty appalling context.

Nicholas motivation was to create a culture that maximized preservation of scarce resources and minimize collateral damage in the resource poor environment they found themselves in and reduce the consequences of infighting. Unfortunately he was a malignant narcissist and what you got was a travesty of his fathers intent.

Reference my comments above about how the difference in philosophy between Aleksandr and Nicholas Kerensky informs the differences between the Crusader and Warden Clans.

[Walsung]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Reference my comments above about how the difference in philosophy between Aleksandr and Nicholas Kerensky informs the differences between the Crusader and Warden Clans.

true but ultimately the structure and inbred biases of their culture were owing to Nicholas and he clearly demonstrated early on that the choices were either play by his rules or get smashed. Some clans were able to preserve a better sense of balance within themselves then others but they were still essentially fascist societies some dictators were just more benevolent then others.

That's not to say that the inner sphere were often any better with their feudal society.

Or comstar with it's cultist behavior an messiah complex who knowingly and deliberately perpetrated centuries of barbarism to satisfy it's self indulgent doctrine until it realized that it faced and existential threat and would actually have to allow access to some of its stash.

I just have a visceral dislike to figures like Nicholas (and Blake and Katherine steiner-Davion) these guys are bad guys you are supposed to dislike them. Nicholas's finger prints are just a bit deeper then these two.

For the most part Invasion was written with lots of memories of the cold war when Russia was the bad guy (Clans=Russia)
Jihad was self explanatory in this context.

Take you pick of the current hot spots to figure out the next chapters China vs rest of Asia and consequently the US and everyone else. Putin invading rest of Ukraine, Balkans, Finland (clans resurgent pushing through GBD) etc. Jihad just keeps going on etc. God knows how Trump would be interpreted.

[Coralld]

Walsung, on 15 July 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

true but ultimately the structure and inbred biases of their culture were owing to Nicholas and he clearly demonstrated early on that the choices were either play by his rules or get smashed. Some clans were able to preserve a better sense of balance within themselves then others but they were still essentially fascist societies some dictators were just more benevolent then others.

That's not to say that the inner sphere were often any better with their feudal society.

Or comstar with it's cultist behavior an messiah complex who knowingly and deliberately perpetrated centuries of barbarism to satisfy it's self indulgent doctrine until it realized that it faced and existential threat and would actually have to allow access to some of its stash.

I just have a visceral dislike to figures like Nicholas (and Blake and Katherine steiner-Davion) these guys are bad guys you are supposed to dislike them. Nicholas's finger prints are just a bit deeper then these two.

For the most part Invasion was written with lots of memories of the cold war when Russia was the bad guy (Clans=Russia)
Jihad was self explanatory in this context.

Take you pick of the current hot spots to figure out the next chapters China vs rest of Asia and consequently the US and everyone else. Putin invading rest of Ukraine, Balkans, Finland (clans resurgent pushing through GBD) etc. Jihad just keeps going on etc. God knows how Trump would be interpreted.

For the most part you are correct.
Blake him self wasn't a bad guy, it's that his mission was bastardised and twisted into a cult.

Edited by Coralld, 15 July 2016 - 07:35 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

History is full of "not a bad guy"s whose names are placed on banners that are waved by those of nefarious purposes.

[Yellonet]

dervishx5, on 15 July 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

I have to throw some Godwin out here: the naazis didn't think of themselves as evil either.

I was just going to say that too, lol

[Yellonet]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

In fairness, noone actually suffers under Clan rule. Technicians may be a lower caste than warriors, but they're hardly being thrown to the gas chamber, are they?

In fact, most every man, woman, and child in Clan society is well taken care of as long as they are willing to pull their weight. There really isn't "poverty" per se in Clan culture. There's no concept of wealth. The caste system is just a more formal version of the hierarchy that already exists throughout any other society. The different castes have their own councils and inform the decisions of Clan government. In some Clans, the rigidness of the caste system is virtually non-existent.

Not to mention Clans have better genetics, better health, better technology... your quality of life is likely to be better and for longer than a typical Spheroid.

It's much better to part of the 95% in the Clans than it is in the Inner Sphere.

Much of what you say are good about the Clans are exactly the reasoning behind the {Godwin's Law} rule over Germany. To create a better, genetically "cleaner" society where the right and strong people were in power and the weak weeded out.

One is a real empire whose practices are considered to be crimes against humanity, the other is just a made up fictional group. The ideas powering these two powers are however the same and they are real so I find it troubling that some players actually think these ideas are good...