121 replies to this topic

[FLG 01]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

A 75 ton 'Mech having decent firepower while being stuck at the same maximum speed as a Kodiak getting some agility boosts to help it not get reamed by faster heavies was OP to you?

I never said anything even remotely similar to this.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

I never said anything even remotely similar to this.

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

However, the BH2 deserved it. That one is buffed massively already due to the more than liberal engine cap. (not that I am totally against that, but it is worth remembering and makes the nerf in mobility reasonable).

That doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.

[Bishop Steiner]

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

I never said anything even remotely similar to this.

then we must really be misreading this, mate

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

I agree that the nerf was totally and absolutely unnecessary for the main line of Marauders.

However, the BH2 deserved it. That one is buffed massively already due to the more than liberal engine cap. (not that I am totally against that, but it is worth remembering and makes the nerf in mobility reasonable).

because it seems that by saying the BH2 deserved it, and it was "buffed massively"....well it looks like you were saying it WAS OP, and good riddance to it.

*shrugs*

Deathlike, on 15 July 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

Obviously it's the person that can tickle our Balance Overlord's fancy.

that just sounds downright dirty

[Y E O N N E]

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

I never said anything even remotely similar to this.

Really?

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

However, the BH2 deserved it. That one is buffed massively already due to the more than liberal engine cap. (not that I am totally against that, but it is worth remembering and makes the nerf in mobility reasonable).

If the BH2 deserved it, then you thought what it had was too much. Pretty much the definition of "overpowered" something being better than it should be.

The engine cap rule has been violated many times. There are several 'Mechs that would love for it to be violated some more, because they are slow to run and don't have the agility to defend themselves even if some target happens to enter their power zone. The BH2 was fine where it was, hardly tearing up the field.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 July 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

that just sounds downright dirty

I know, but there was this one video where our balance overlord was giggling over this person.

/shrudder

[FLG 01]

I merely said the reduced mobility quirks on a Mech with extra liberal engine cap - which itself, again, is ok - sound reasonable to me.
That does not mean the BH2 is great, it does not mean the BH2 should not get other quirks, especially offensive quirks.

If that cannot be agreed to, fine. But this kind of "discussion" ...

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 15 July 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

I know, but there was this one video where our balance overlord was giggling over this person.

/shrudder

You have successfully piqued my curiosity...

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 15 July 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

You have successfully piqued my curiosity...

will we need to ingest copious quantities of alcohol before viewing this footage?
*pours large glass of tequila, regardless*

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 July 2016 - 09:53 PM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 15 July 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

You have successfully piqued my curiosity...

Our community needs to be managed better.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 15 July 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

Our community needs to be managed better.

Hint hint, wink wink?

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 15 July 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

Our community needs to be managed better.

that has a rather....
flair to it......

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 15 July 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

Hint hint, wink wink?

I'm pretty sure our balance overlord has epilepsy.

Bishop Steiner, on 15 July 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

that has a rather....
flair to it......

So, you're gonna order the costume?

[Y E O N N E]

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

I merely said the reduced mobility quirks on a Mech with extra liberal engine cap - which itself, again, is ok - sound reasonable to me.
That does not mean the BH2 is great, it does not mean the BH2 should not get other quirks, especially offensive quirks.

If that cannot be agreed to, fine. But this kind of "discussion" ...

We're not coming down on you over your position on the 'Mech having a bigger engine; that you think that's fine is great, because otherwise that is something we would probably frown upon. We're coming down on you because you think that a 'Mech, which is too slow for the field in spite of having a higher cap than the arbitrary formula should allow, deserved to lose a quirk that mitigated this deficiency to a limited extent.

That you think it deserved to lose those quirks implies that you believed it was over-powered as a whole before the nerf. Which it is not.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 15 July 2016 - 09:57 PM.

[FLG 01]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

That you think it deserved to lose those quirks implies that you believed it was over-powered as a whole before the nerf. Which it is not.

I did not mean to imply it was overpowered. If that was the case I am sorry. Just keep in mind, English is my third language.

Yes, I do believe it should not have these mobility quirks. Why? Not because I hate the design and want it to fail. I believe so because the design, in the lore, was slow and cumbersome. But it was very powerful in its armament. Hence I do believe its quirks should reflect that aspect of lore.
I am all for better offensive quirks, and against better mobility quirks. If you want to disagree on that, fine (again). But please do not presume I advocate any OPness of the BH2.

[FupDup]

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

...But it was very powerful in its armament. Hence I do believe its quirks should reflect that aspect of lore.
I am all for better offensive quirks, and against better mobility quirks.

Okay, so we're making some progress here. However, this leads to the following issues:

1. PGI is not willing to give out large weapon quirks anymore.

2. A lot of the player base has an abject hatred of all weapon quirks that are stronger than 5%, if even that high.

Remember the old Grid Iron or Dragon 1N forum complaints? That would get repeated.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

in the lore, was slow and cumbersome. But it was very powerful in its armament. Hence I do believe its quirks should reflect that aspect of lore.

Look! I found your problem!

Powerful armament means nothing in MWOs environment if it doesn't also have adequate mobility.

Q.E.D: The Kodiak has obsoleted the Dire Wolf.

[Requiemking]

So, after reviewing the IS Quirk PDF, some of the nerfs and buffs do make some sense.

The Jenner buff was a long time coming, and thank PGI the Oxide got nothing.

The Locust nerf seemed a little extreme, but oh well. I'm just thankful they didn't hurt Pirates Bane that badly.

The Black Jack nerf was a major WTF. I mean, Black Jack isn't exactly a meta mech, albeit the BJ-3 and BJ-1X were the most commonly used(I use a BJ-1).

The Centurion AL nerf is kinda a WTF. I mean, a Centy nerf was bound to happen at some point, I just don't understand why they hit that particular variant.

The Kintaro buff seems ok. Always nice to see the weak being strengthend.

The Phoenix Hawks got buffed, which is fine by me. I felt they were a little frail for their size, so, ok.

The Quickdraw nerf doesn't really make sense. Since the Rescale I have yet to see a Quickdraw. Hell, I have yet to see any of the non-Rifleman IS 60 tonners since the Rescale.

Catapult nerf was totally expected. Ditto for the Warhammer nerf.

Marauder nerf was to be expected, but kind of a shame none the less.

Battlemaster nerf was, again, to be expected.

Over all, I have the feeling that the meta will shift as the meta mechs are hit repeatedly with the nerf bat while weaker mechs are brought up.

Edited by Requiemking, 15 July 2016 - 10:11 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

FLG 01, on 15 July 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

I did not mean to imply it was overpowered. If that was the case I am sorry. Just keep in mind, English is my third language.

Yes, I do believe it should not have these mobility quirks. Why? Not because I hate the design and want it to fail. I believe so because the design, in the lore, was slow and cumbersome. But it was very powerful in its armament. Hence I do believe its quirks should reflect that aspect of lore.
I am all for better offensive quirks, and against better mobility quirks. If you want to disagree on that, fine (again). But please do not presume I advocate any OPness of the BH2.

Well then, that's where we differ. As far as I am concerned, if anybody wants a lore fix they have plenty of books and older single-player games they can play. However...

...MWO is a PvP game. As such, it depends on creating an environment that is fair to all players. To add, it also makes its money by selling 'Mechs. If 'Mechs cease being effective on the field, people get frustrated and stop buying because they think this is the fate of everything they buy. They stop buying, they stop playing. No more game.

As such, all 'Mechs should ideally be quirked to compensate for inherent deficiencies due to shape, hard-points, faction tree, etc. The BH2, being heavily engine capped compared to its peers while not actually possessing superior firepower, needs more agility and more range to offset. That's why losing the agility buffs is a big deal to us.

To boot, being able to turn nicely doesn't go against the lore. Not really. It's still a slow 'Mech with lots of guns.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Requiemking, on 15 July 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

1. Catapult nerf was totally expected. 1a. Ditto for the Warhammer nerf.

2. Marauder nerf was to be expected, but kind of a shame none the less.

3. Battlemaster nerf was, again, to be expected.

1: I guess
1a: No it wasn't
2: No...no it wasn't
3: Sort of, the one that realistically should have been, was barely touched.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 15 July 2016 - 10:13 PM.

[Requiemking]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 15 July 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

1: I guess
1a: No it wasn't
2: No...no it wasn't
3: Sort of, the one that realistically should have been, was barely touched.

1: It really was.
1a: It actually was, considering the Warhammer has been meta since it's arrival.
2: Again, it was to be expected due to the Marauder being meta for so long.
3: Ah well. I'm not entirely sure if PGI's data collecting covers specific variants, or if it's just based on Chassis alone.
Over all, it seems like PGI is finally making an active move towards changing the meta, albeit, going the wrong way about it.