41 replies to this topic

[Yellonet]

All the crying going on now tells me something, deep down, you people want everything to be the same.
The differences between different mechs must be leveled out with quirks to make as many mechs as possible viable, without quirks there would likely be much fewer mechs that you could be successful in.
With all the hate against any and all balancing efforts from PGI it's clear that some people would prefer everything to be equal, make everything the same between every mech, IS as well as Clan and there would be no need for balancing because there would be nothing to balance.

If you like mechs to be different you have to accept that there will be ongoing balancing changes throughout the life of MWO - some of which you will not agree with - because the changes are essential and unavoidable. And as there are so many different mechs and different technologies involved there will NEVER be perfect balance.
So accept imperfect and ongoing balancing or start lobbying for everything to be the same, all you'd get to choose would be how your mech would look, wouldn't that be nice?

[Alistair Winter]

I would like for light mechs not to be underpowered, at least. How about that?

PGI isn't going to stop nerfing light mechs untill heavy mechs are 80% of the queue and make up half of the teams in the solo queue. gg 3-3-3-3.

[Cy Mitchell]

Yellonet, on 16 July 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

All the crying going on now tells me something, deep down, you people want everything to be the same.
The differences between different mechs must be leveled out with quirks to make as many mechs as possible viable, without quirks there would likely be much fewer mechs that you could be successful in.
With all the hate against any and all balancing efforts from PGI it's clear that some people would prefer everything to be equal, make everything the same between every mech, IS as well as Clan and there would be no need for balancing because there would be nothing to balance.

If you like mechs to be different you have to accept that there will be ongoing balancing changes throughout the life of MWO - some of which you will not agree with - because the changes are essential and unavoidable. And as there are so many different mechs and different technologies involved there will NEVER be perfect balance.
So accept imperfect and ongoing balancing or start lobbying for everything to be the same, all you'd get to choose would be how your mech would look, wouldn't that be nice?

You would not even be able to make them look different unless you are just talking about paint, decals and camo. They would all have to be the exact same shape and size. Just look at all the complaining in the re-scale threads about frontal target area.

If you want true balance then there can only be one Mech with one loadout. Customization would just be a cornucopia of aethetic items.

[Bud Crue]

Yes because nerfing mechs no one is playing (quickdraws) and mechs that are clearly NOT OP (locusts, Kodiak 2 and 4, Marauders) is somehow going to make other mechs better, increase diversity and help advance this balance that you speak of?

Quirks were supposed to be about making each mech and each variant have an equivalent value and usefulness (see Paul's comments and thread when PTS2 was a thing). Nerffing mechs that are in no way, shape or form OP does nothing to enhance their value or usefulness. It sure as heck doesn't help balance.

I can see an argument for buffing the agility of the PHX to make it "balanced" relative to the greater ruggedness of the BJ, but nerfing that ruggedness of the BJ at the same time destroys that balance. This is what they do, time and time again. It is PGI that is ruining balance not the players.

Edited by Bud Crue, 16 July 2016 - 06:29 AM.

[Yellonet]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

I would like for light mechs not to be underpowered, at least. How about that?

PGI isn't going to stop nerfing light mechs untill heavy mechs are 80% of the queue and make up half of the teams in the solo queue. gg 3-3-3-3.

Honest question.
Are lights really underpowered?
Or is it that people keep playing them in a way that is not playing to the strength of the light they are in?

For me personally I've played less of lights after the rescale, but I'm not sure if that has to do with my playstyle being wrong, or the fact that I always end up meeting enemy locusts or ACH that I find quite difficult to fight in my lights.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

I think people just want PGI to make decisions for change/balance based on some coherent philosophy that doesn't seem like spitballing. This is why people think PGI is just making changes so that they can sell mech packs. If PGI had an actual philosophy as to why they are balancing, and communicated it better, then changes would seem predictable and people would come to expect what/why it is done.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

I would like for light mechs not to be underpowered, at least. How about that?

PGI isn't going to stop nerfing light mechs untill heavy mechs are 80% of the queue and make up half of the teams in the solo queue. gg 3-3-3-3.

Explain to me why light mechs are under powered.

Telemachus Rheade, on 16 July 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

I think people just want PGI to make decisions for change/balance based on some coherent philosophy that doesn't seem like spitballing. This is why people think PGI is just making changes so that they can sell mech packs. If PGI had an actual philosophy as to why they are balancing, and communicated it better, then changes would seem predictable and people would come to expect what/why it is done.

Exactly this.

Mech has 9 energy hardpoints and 1 missile hardpoint. Is a great all round mech. Not overpowering, performing as intended.

Lets REMOVE ALL ENERGY QUIRKS AND GIVE IT MISSILE QUIRKS!!!!

That seems to be their attempt at "balance" Nothing is inherently wrong with the mechs, and they are performing decently. The battlemaster had good generic energy quirks and good generic ballistic quirks leaving both build options available, and they gimped it.

[Yellonet]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

I would like for light mechs not to be underpowered, at least. How about that?

PGI isn't going to stop nerfing light mechs untill heavy mechs are 80% of the queue and make up half of the teams in the solo queue. gg 3-3-3-3.

I look forward to more information warfare, then I think lights could get more popular again. The current state of the game is based solely on fighting prowess, and obviously many people find their golden ratio between firepower, speed and survivability in the Heavy Class.
If we get more information warfare with appropriate rewards we could see more roles that aren't primarily for fighting.
I like being a scout, but as there is no game mechanic for it it is seldom rewarded in QP...

[Cy Mitchell]

Telemachus Rheade, on 16 July 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

I think people just want PGI to make decisions for change/balance based on some coherent philosophy that doesn't seem like spitballing. This is why people think PGI is just making changes so that they can sell mech packs. If PGI had an actual philosophy as to why they are balancing, and communicated it better, then changes would seem predictable and people would come to expect what/why it is done.

While I agree with what you say here, I do not think that it would really make any difference in people's reaction to their favorite toy getting nerfed. No matter what PGI does, someone complains. Even when they give free stuff for just playing a few matches, someone complains. If they have a sale, someone complains. If they buff something or nerf something, someone complains.

There is a trend here.

[Alistair Winter]

Yellonet, on 16 July 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

Honest question.
Are lights really underpowered?
Or is it that people keep playing them in a way that is not playing to the strength of the light they are in?
For me personally I've played less of lights after the rescale, but I'm not sure if that has to do with my playstyle being wrong, or the fact that I always end up meeting enemy locusts or ACH that I find quite difficult to fight in my lights.

Basically, light mechs have certain advantages over other mechs that don't compensate for their weaknesses. Yes, they are better at capping, scouting, NARCing, spotting, and yes, they are faster and more agile and harder to hit. But this doesn't make up for their lack of armour and firepower.

It's like putting a 155 lbs boxer in the ring with a 265 lbs heavy weight. Yes, the smaller boxer has advantages. Yes, he can stick and move, he's faster, he's harder to hit, he has better stamina. But it's not just a matter of playing to your strengths. It's not a fair match. The advantages of the smaller boxer do not make up for the advantages of the bigger boxer.

Light mechs are the least popular, do the least damage, get the fewest kills, get paid least amount of C-bills, have the least ability to carry pugs to victory, and just as a little cherry on top... there's a whole weapon type in MWO designed to wipe out light mechs. If you encounter a Clan streakboat at close range, you either run away or die.

Light mechs are underpowered. Remove all restrictions from the group queue and from the tournament, and you will see how balanced the different weight classes are.

Yellonet, on 16 July 2016 - 06:49 AM, said:

I look forward to more information warfare, then I think lights could get more popular again. The current state of the game is based solely on fighting prowess, and obviously many people find their golden ratio between firepower, speed and survivability in the Heavy Class.
If we get more information warfare with appropriate rewards we could see more roles that aren't primarily for fighting.
I like being a scout, but as there is no game mechanic for it it is seldom rewarded in QP...

Information warfare and role warfare (i.e. new skill trees) will hopefully sort out the issue. But PGI has a tendency to leave certain mechs in the dumpster for months or years with a future patch in mind. Like "Don't worry about the Locust. In 2 years, when we give it some proper quirks, it will be a good mech. You'll see. Meanwhile, buy some new mech packs."

[Yellonet]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

Basically, light mechs have certain advantages over other mechs that don't compensate for their weaknesses. Yes, they are better at capping, scouting, NARCing, spotting, and yes, they are faster and more agile and harder to hit. But this doesn't make up for their lack of armour and firepower.

It's like putting a 155 lbs boxer in the ring with a 265 lbs heavy weight. Yes, the smaller boxer has advantages. Yes, he can stick and move, he's faster, he's harder to hit, he has better stamina. But it's not just a matter of playing to your strengths. It's not a fair match. The advantages of the smaller boxer do not make up for the advantages of the bigger boxer.

Light mechs are the least popular, do the least damage, get the fewest kills, get paid least amount of C-bills, have the least ability to carry pugs to victory, and just as a little cherry on top... there's a whole weapon type in MWO designed to wipe out light mechs. If you encounter a Clan streakboat at close range, you either run away or die.

Light mechs are underpowered. Remove all restrictions from the group queue and from the tournament, and you will see how balanced the different weight classes are.


Information warfare and role warfare (i.e. new skill trees) will hopefully sort out the issue. But PGI has a tendency to leave certain mechs in the dumpster for months or years with a future patch in mind. Like "Don't worry about the Locust. In 2 years, when we give it some proper quirks, it will be a good mech. You'll see. Meanwhile, buy some new mech packs."

With the boxing analogy we are talking 1 on 1, and yes, then a light should be in a disadvantage, unless perhaps in certain terrain. I consider lights to be support weapons rather than main weapons. So that a light lance could flank or get behind a group of enemies, make them turn around or get shot in the back, and as they do, the main force moves in and the enemy is caught between two "fronts".

[Rampancy]

Yellonet, on 16 July 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

Honest question.
Are lights really underpowered?
Or is it that people keep playing them in a way that is not playing to the strength of the light they are in?

For me personally I've played less of lights after the rescale, but I'm not sure if that has to do with my playstyle being wrong, or the fact that I always end up meeting enemy locusts or ACH that I find quite difficult to fight in my lights.

Ding ding ding

The biggest thing that made me quit playing my Jenners back in the day wasn't being shot by other mechs, it was losing any and all engagements where a 8xSPL FS9 or a 6xSPL ACH managed to get near me. Even if you get away, you're doing so with some serious hurt on your mech, and unless they do something dumb and shut down, you're never going to win with 6ML against a halfway competent one of those.

The increased size is definitely annoying, but it really doesn't bother me against larger mechs, because I'm playing peekaboo against those anyway. It's fighting the other lights that makes it obnoxious.

[Alistair Winter]

Yellonet, on 16 July 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

With the boxing analogy we are talking 1 on 1, and yes, then a light should be in a disadvantage, unless perhaps in certain terrain. I consider lights to be support weapons rather than main weapons. So that a light lance could flank or get behind a group of enemies, make them turn around or get shot in the back, and as they do, the main force moves in and the enemy is caught between two "fronts".

Again, if all weight classes were useful and role warfare actually worked in MWO, there would be no need for restrictions in solo queue, group queue or the tournament. If light mech lances were so devastating, teams would bring them out of their own volition, rather than because of restrictions.

[Alistair Winter]

Yellonet, on 16 July 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

With the boxing analogy we are talking 1 on 1, and yes, then a light should be in a disadvantage, unless perhaps in certain terrain. I consider lights to be support weapons rather than main weapons.

And if you want a better analogy, consider the use of cavalry in world war 1. In the start of WW1, vehicles were not yet a part of modern armies. There were no light tanks or APCs yet. So cavalry units were unique in their ability to take ground quickly and exploit openings. However, the use of cavalry was still extremely limited and most cavalry units provided very little to actually winning battles. Yes, they were faster and they were mobile, but they were cut down easily by concentrated machine gun fire and artillery.

In this sense, light mechs in MWO can be compared to cavalry in WW1, although it's obviously not to the point of light mechs being useless. They're part of a greater army and they offer their own advantages and disadvantages. But ultimately, the metagame doesn't justify bringing them in many cases. 3-3-3-3 is not the ideal team composition in MWO.

[Yellonet]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

Again, if all weight classes were useful and role warfare actually worked in MWO, there would be no need for restrictions in solo queue, group queue or the tournament. If light mech lances were so devastating, teams would bring them out of their own volition, rather than because of restrictions.

I just hope PGI bring info warfare back, and more extensive than before, the Cyclops may be a sign?
I just don't think beefing up all lights so they can stand toe to toe with assaults and heavies is the solution to the low amount of lights out there.

[Rampancy]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

Light mechs are the least popular, do the least damage, get the fewest kills, get paid least amount of C-bills, have the least ability to carry pugs to victory, and just as a little cherry on top... there's a whole weapon type in MWO designed to wipe out light mechs. If you encounter a Clan streakboat at close range, you either run away or die.

Not sure I agree with this. My Jenners are by far my winningest/killingest chassis of all time in pub drops. My stats will obviously go down over time with the nerfs, but they'll still probably settle in at top dog.

[El Bandito]

From what I see in the patch notes, some balancing makes sense, while others feel like PGI is playing on a dart board.

I have given up trying to divine Paul's mind.

[Alistair Winter]

RampancyTW, on 16 July 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

Not sure I agree with this. My Jenners are by far my winningest/killingest chassis of all time in pub drops. My stats will obviously go down over time with the nerfs, but they'll still probably settle in at top dog.

I don't doubt that at all. Some people will always overcome, some people will always have special skills. Maybe players like Krivvan or Adiuvo (or whoever the top light mech pilots are) would disagree with me too. But it's just not the case for most players. And every time you say "X is underpowered", you will see someone say "Yeah, but I'm doing just fine with X and I have a 10.0 WLR in the solo queue".

In other words, your personal accomplishments, impressive as I'm sure they are, are not enough for me to be satisfied.

[Rampancy]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

I don't doubt that at all. Some people will always overcome, some people will always have special skills. Maybe players like Krivvan or Adiuvo (or whoever the top light mech pilots are) would disagree with me too. But it's just not the case for most players. And every time you say "X is underpowered", you will see someone say "Yeah, but I'm doing just fine with X and I have a 10.0 WLR in the solo queue".

In other words, your personal accomplishments, impressive as I'm sure they are, are not enough for me to be satisfied.

I'm definitely a solid player, but I don't really have any special skills in that regard. No incredible aim, no particularly awesome piloting. I've disagreed with Krivvan, Adiuvo, and others plenty on these forums.

The average comp fight lasts around 60 seconds, which is too short for lights to make much of a difference unless they're splat builds. Which is a lot of where their perspective comes from.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Alistair Winter, on 16 July 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

I don't doubt that at all. Some people will always overcome, some people will always have special skills. Maybe players like Krivvan or Adiuvo (or whoever the top light mech pilots are) would disagree with me too. But it's just not the case for most players. And every time you say "X is underpowered", you will see someone say "Yeah, but I'm doing just fine with X and I have a 10.0 WLR in the solo queue".

In other words, your personal accomplishments, impressive as I'm sure they are, are not enough for me to be satisfied.

My biggest fear in this game is not the 100 ton KD3, or the Madcat/blackknight/stormcrow "meta" monsteres, It is the Jenner pilot that knows what hes doing. Short of getting lucky leg shots, or him running into a dedicated light mech killer that thing can solo any mech in this game. Especially oxides, or clanIIC jenners with all those dam SRM's.