314 replies to this topic

[Steel Claws]

Now you know how it felt when they nerfed the crap out of jump sniping, gauss rifles, and PPCs.

[Mekwarrior]

I hardly ever played with gauss once or twice but I was against the bow and arrow mechanic nerf purely because it didn't seem to make mechanical sense.

I care about balance, good gameplay and realism etc, not just about buffing my mechs and nerfing other mechs that I don't play.

I could easily switch to heavies, assaults etc and blast lots of lights like everyone else, but I think the game would massively suffer and become slow and boring, or rather it has already since these light nerfs.

Edited by Mekwarrior, 22 July 2016 - 08:52 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Steel Claws, on 22 July 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

Now you know how it felt when they nerfed the crap out of jump sniping, gauss rifles, and PPCs.

More like "broken jump jets". Gauss/PPC is currently one of the most dominant Kodiak metabuilds, BTW.

Jump sniping was the equivalent of bunny-hopping with an AK47. Dozens of tons of metal held in midair in an unstable configuration solely by thrust while being pelted with fire should never a stable firing platform make. I cry no tears at the gimping of poptarts, only that the cost was jump jets being ruined as a mobility tool to do it.

[Mystere]

Bilbo, on 22 July 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

They should go back to 8v8 and enforce a 2/2/2/2. I believe everyone would be much happier.

Have less players? I'd rather have more ... along with much larger maps and better game modes.

Steel Claws, on 22 July 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

Now you know how it felt when they nerfed the crap out of jump sniping, gauss rifles, and PPCs.

I wonder if the crybabies that demanded the poptart and associated nerfs who are still around are the same crybabies that demanding the light nerf as well?

Edited by Mystere, 22 July 2016 - 09:23 PM.

[Mole]

DAYLEET, on 22 July 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

3/3/3/3 would really help make matches more interesting.

Unless they've changed something the MM still tries to get a 3/3/3/3 game but since the game has such a small playerbase, if it can't find enough of one weight class within a certain amount of time of searching it pulls in players with other weight classes just to keep things moving. The fact that we are getting teams with one to zero lights on it regularly and a whole bunch of heavies only serves to showcase how truly unattractive the light weight class has become since the rescale.

[L3mming2]

operatorZ, on 22 July 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

Appreciate the reasoned response.

I don't understand how a mech that is 1/3 the weight and 1/3 the armor and 1/3 the firepower can be expected to achieve average damage scores that are equal to a mech that is 2-3 times bigger and has all the armor and firepower that goes with it. It's just not logical. In my mind the only thing that would allow this smaller mech to do that is 1) really good pilot, or 2) if the mech was not in fact 1/3 of everything. In all the MOBA's I have played this relationship is the same, If you play a heavy tank in WOT your damage range the equals good or average play per match is X-X and the mediums are a little lower and the lights are a little lower than that, on average over the playerbase.

I am not saying a well performing light is OP (although I do understand some pilots can't handle being killed by a light and cry endlessly). A light should be rewarded by its damage or kills in a way that makes these expected and totally rational lower damage numbers worth it for the player. But if the average damage of lights is less than heavies and light pilots consider this UP then I don't know what to say....it's just not how the game at its core is designed.

I honestly have no idea if PGI listens to the players or not, yes it does seem suspicious the timing of thier "balance decisions". But few people can deny that at one point lights did benefit from a bugged hit reg. Never bothered me but I noticed it.



I would be open to nerfing agility on heavies. I doubt PGI would though, at the end of the day the vast majority of its players play heavier classes and I don't think they would want to piss them off, no they are much more comfortable pissing off the small % of light pilots.

I like fighting locusts they are a challenge to hit.

I am not saying that lights aren't combat viable but they are not "As" combat viable as other classes. If we are equating getting an equal amount of damage/kills as a heavier class as "equally combat viable". As far as I know the rewards in XP and C bills are not scaled to the mech that achieves them by tonnage, which they should.

But back to the MOBAs, I don't see this equality of class in other MOBAs, I played 10,000 matches in World of Tanks and 5,000 in World of Warships and the lighter classes do not, on average achieve the same damage levels that heavier classes do. That doesn't mean they are combat ineffective, it just means that, on average they will have a hard time getting the same amount of kills and damage as heavier classes.

Lights do have a niche and a niche that isn't defined by being able to put out the same damage as heavier units. PGI has done a terrible job with any role warfare or real time economy that might offer more for light pilots. For example in the WOT or WOW games you have to grind up to heavier weight classes that then punish you for using them by thier high repair costs, an economy of balance in a sense. If it actually cost more in time and money to play heavier units you might see more focus on the smaller, cheaper weight classes and once the class had a lot of players in it, PGI would have to give it equal attention. But as it stands anybody can get a heavy or assault and game on with basically no need to play a light ever. Nevermind that I think forcing people to play lights by having a "grind up" system would invariably result in more light players and better players overall.

I don't think we are far apart here but I just as light pilots get pissed when they see a thread complaining about lights OP, some of us heavy pilots get a little tired of the endless hyperbole about how the weight class is dead when I see good light pilots dominating games all the time.

in WOT the DPS of a med is higher then the DPS of a heavy, and a light can circle a heavy faster than it can turn its gun on it... but here when a light has the agility to stay on the *** of a assault or god forbid a heavy its called OP and cryed about till its nerfed in to the ground...

[Bilbo]

Mystere, on 22 July 2016 - 08:55 PM, said:

Have less players? I'd rather have more ... along with much larger maps and better game modes.



I wonder if the crybabies that demanded the poptart and associated nerfs who are still around are the same crybabies that demanding the light nerf as well?

There are now two maps left that might encourage a brawl... if I try really hard to make it happen.
They keep improving them....

[Talorien]

Brain Cancer, on 22 July 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

Or if they really wanna have the four-thing stay there needs to be a bonus percentage "pool" that gets split to whatever weight class is forced to play out of fewer slots. Only get two lights when you should have three? Give the light pilots a bit sweeter share of the pot at the end of the game. Everyone has to deal with 6 assaults because it's Cyclops release day? Bonuses go to the most neglected weight class(es) in a drop.

Encourage people in neglected weight slots by lightening the grind.

Very nice ideas!

I don't think all weightages should be equally powerful, but I do think that all weightages should be equally rewarding to play.

And by that I mean in-game rewards.

[dario03]

Steel Claws, on 22 July 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

Now you know how it felt when they nerfed the crap out of jump sniping, gauss rifles, and PPCs.

What do you mean "now"? Theres no rule saying you can only play one weight class or style. I was playing that style when it got over nerfed too. And I say over nerfed because it needed nerfed but that last nerf that put it into the ground, went to far. Thing is the light nerfs weren't needed at all.

[Xelos]

operatorZ, on 22 July 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

Nevermind that I think forcing people to play lights by having a "grind up" system would invariably result in more light players and better players overall.

I don't think we are far apart here but I just as light pilots get pissed when they see a thread complaining about lights OP, some of us heavy pilots get a little tired of the endless hyperbole about how the weight class is dead when I see good light pilots dominating games all the time.

The WoT grind system is about the worst thing they could do to MWO. Game has enough pointless progression gimmicks. You are calling for making lights objectively worse mechs and creating a mech tier system in a way. I don't think that is the best direction if we want MWO to grow beyond its tiny little player-base.

L3mming2, on 23 July 2016 - 01:22 AM, said:

in WOT the DPS of a med is higher then the DPS of a heavy, and a light can circle a heavy faster than it can turn its gun on it... but here when a light has the agility to stay on the *** of a assault or god forbid a heavy its called OP and cryed about till its nerfed in to the ground...

Ah another former (or current?) WoT player. They need to accentuate the advantages and disadvantages and make them worthwhile. I'm of the opinion everything should be 1v1 capable.

Taking a mobility advantage cross-section we may think in a 1v1 vacuum that lights should be able to out mobility Assaults significantly and Heavies enough to be effective in 1v1. When fighting mediums the light mobility advantage should be weak where the medium's firepower and mobility together is strong vs a light in a 1v1.

Edited by Xelos, 24 July 2016 - 08:16 AM.

[Stone Wall]

Almost any mech was 1vs1 capable in MW3. I carry that same play style into MWO with the knowledge that there is no lag shooting, so that means more backshots and hit and runs.

[Talorien]

Darian DelFord, on 20 July 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

The problem is the rescale has brought to fruition the vulnerability of lights even more by making them bigger. We simply can not take the hits the assaults........ BUT we are also held to the SAME standard as heavies and assaults when it comes to match score... C-bills and XP

It is SIMPLE for a heavy or an assault to pull off a 500+ damage game.... but a light pilot has to work his arse off for it. This is a major part of the imbalance.

QFT.

The rescale had a huge, wrong assumption: that scaling should be linear because TTK increases proportionately to size.

It does NOT, because of the following math:

• If I have 30 hits (e.g. armor + structure in CT), and your alpha is 30 dmg it takes 0 seconds to kill me
  
• If I have 60 hits, it takes 3 seconds to kill me (assuming 3s weapon cycle)
  
• If I have 90 hits, it takes 6 seconds to kill me

As you can see there's a HUGE dropoff in TTK around where Lights are. That's why they need to be proportionately smaller than other weight classes.

TLDR: The rescale hit Lights badly. Because math.

[davoodoo]

L3mming2, on 23 July 2016 - 01:22 AM, said:

in WOT the DPS of a med is higher then the DPS of a heavy, and a light can circle a heavy faster than it can turn its gun on it... but here when a light has the agility to stay on the *** of a assault or god forbid a heavy its called OP and cryed about till its nerfed in to the ground...

Dps maybe, but since when dps in wot mattered??
What mattered is whether you can pen at which point it was all about stationary aiming and frontloaded dmg and retreating behind cover...
Also mind you arty had lowest dps, yet still oneshotted tanks and good arty driver was mighty useful asset.
And dont even start me on french clip cannons with "same dps".

Also i havent played for quite a while but when i played lights could at best pen back and meds had problems with sides of heaviest tanks and tds while using premium pay2win ******* ammo.
I even remember matching against e100 with my t-54(pre t10 meds) back in the day, 50 shots to the side 0 pen.

Apples to oranges...

Talorien, on 25 July 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

QFT.

The rescale had a huge, wrong assumption: that scaling should be linear because TTK increases proportionately to size.

It does NOT, because of the following math:

• If I have 30 hits (e.g. armor + structure in CT), and your alpha is 30 dmg it takes 0 seconds to kill me
  
• If I have 60 hits, it takes 3 seconds to kill me (assuming 3s weapon cycle)
  
• If I have 90 hits, it takes 6 seconds to kill me

As you can see there's a HUGE dropoff in TTK around where Lights are. That's why they need to be proportionately smaller than other weight classes.






TLDR: The rescale hit Lights badly. Because math.

kodiaks with huge alphas use burst weapons, laservomit got dmg spread in time, lbx have huge spread, 3 erppcs shutdown most mechs and still good luck having all of them hit same part against moving target.

Where do you have these consistent 30 dmg+ alphas to ct on a moving at 100+ kph light mechs?? Report those ppl for aimbot...
You can make argument that kodiak got effectively 170 hp cause his ct is huge and hes slow but lights?? wolfhound 35 tons, 60 effective hp at ct with both side torsos having ~25 armor, so good pilot will have at least 110 effective hp(~65% of a kodiak) while moving at nearly 3 times speed of kodiak and still being tiny.

You can focus dmg on ct of assaults, you cant focus dmg on any part of lights. Thats why most common tactic is shooting until you take leg off and then blow the rest.

Edited by davoodoo, 25 July 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Talorien, on 25 July 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

QFT.

The rescale had a huge, wrong assumption: that scaling should be linear because TTK increases proportionately to size.

It does NOT, because of the following math:

• If I have 30 hits (e.g. armor + structure in CT), and your alpha is 30 dmg it takes 0 seconds to kill me
  
• If I have 60 hits, it takes 3 seconds to kill me (assuming 3s weapon cycle)
  
• If I have 90 hits, it takes 6 seconds to kill me

As you can see there's a HUGE dropoff in TTK around where Lights are. That's why they need to be proportionately smaller than other weight classes.


TLDR: The rescale hit Lights badly. Because math.

While true.... increasing the size of the Jenner's (Amongst Others) CT by 20 to 25% made it MUCH easier to hit. It is now truly a walking magnet if you get into someone's front view... which with 12 mechs on the field as well as the damage drop off of some weapons being 800+ meters..... is very easy.

[Talorien]

davoodoo, on 25 July 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

kodiaks with huge alphas use burst weapons, laservomit got dmg spread in time, lbx have huge spread, 3 erppcs shutdown most mechs and still good luck having all of them hit same part against moving target.

Where do you have these consistent 30 dmg+ alphas to ct on a moving at 100+ kph light mechs?? Report those ppl for aimbot...
You can make argument that kodiak got effectively 170 hp cause his ct is huge and hes slow but lights?? wolfhound 35 tons, 60 effective hp at ct with both side torsos having ~25 armor, so good pilot will have at least 110 effective hp(~65% of a kodiak) while moving at nearly 3 times speed of kodiak and still being tiny.

You can focus dmg on ct of assaults, you cant focus dmg on any part of lights. Thats why most common tactic is shooting until you take leg off and then blow the rest.

TTK is made up of four variables:

• Average size of enemy alpha (assume 30 for the sake of argument)
  
• Defensive hits (armor + structure)
  
• Defensive size
  
• Defensive mobility (speed + agility)

Your reply assumes that variable #4 mitigates the increase in #3 caused by the rescale.

It does not, for the obvious reason that lights were fairly balanced before the rescale. The rescale had the erroneous assumption that making #3 linear would be objectively fair for balance. Instead it threw out the balance between these four factors.

TLDR: The rescale overnerfed lights because the math of TTK requires light scaling to not be linear to other sizes.