67 replies to this topic

[iliketurtles87]

Dear Mechwarriors this is not a rant. This is my observation over the last 3 years. I started playing mwo before the clan invasion. I mainly play assaults but i have also mechs from the other weight classes aswell. I play clan and Is, if have the IIC, Resistance and Kodiak-Packs.

If you ask me, i would say IS mechs are not their money worth.

The following example shows why: During leveling the kdk-2 up i tried difference build. This build is maybe not the best, but it gives me less facetime and as a result hihger survibility (lot torsotwisting). So after i got good matches in it, i tried the same build on a IS-Assault: I know the banshee ist 5 tons lighter, but it doesnt matter. you will get the same results on a atlas or king crab. Here are the builds:






Now if we compare, beside the kdk can carry an Ultra ac-20:

kdk/bnc
firepower: 40 (60) / 40
speed: 64.8 / 62.3 (BNC with speed skill!)
heat: 1.53 / 1.32
number of
dbl heatsinks 14 / 7

Now if we compare the quirks:

acceleration rate: 15 / 0
decceleration rate: 15 / 0
turn rate: 10 / 0
Torso turn rate (yaw): 25 / 35

Structures:
LT: 5
Rt: 5
LA: 10
RA: 10
CT: 15
LL: 10
RL: 10

(no structure quirks for the Banshee and aswell no acc/decc quirks)

Weaponsquirks: (only BNC got)
laser duration: -10
balistic cooldonw: +10
mediumlaser duration: +5
ppc velocity: +20
Energy range: +5
mediumlaser range: +5

I mean honestly those weapons quirks are for nothing, when you see how hot the Banshee compare to the kdk is. The BNC suffers from the low engine cap, and has to use a STD. It doenst get acc/decc quirks.... This is just one example, but the same thing is with boating balistics. The Kodiaks just obsolete my Maulers in every way.

So i ask you or PGI, why schould i buy any more IS-mechs?

You pay the same Money (example: Cyclops/Kodiak-Packs) but you will get on the IS-Side a junk chassis with starved Hardpoints, then it comes with SHS, STD...you have to invest millions of c-bills to make them even a slighty enjoyable. On the opposite you will get 3 xl 400, DHS, endo... everything out of the box.


So i ask you or PGI again, why schould i buy any more IS-mechs (with the current tech)? I really dont know...

[kesmai]

Wow.
This made my head explode.
But I learned: The chassis most comparable to the Kodiak is the Bungee.
This seems absolutely on spot.
Like it's well thought out.
Grats to the op.

[adamts01]

Some mechs win and some mechs lose. You're comparing a lower tier mech to possible the most powerful and OP mech the game has yet seen. Warhammers, Black Knights, Ravens, Griffins, the energy Banshee.... They all have things they do better than their Clan counterparts can do. I don't like the vast separation of usefulness between chassis either. I won't spend anything on this game anymore, so I'm not buying anything regardless, but you do make a very good point.

[DovisKhan]

ARP Haruna, on 20 July 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

Wow.
This made my head explode.
But I learned: The chassis most comparable to the Kodiak is the Bungee.
This seems absolutely on spot.
Like it's well thought out.
Grats to the op.

Sarcasm aside he has a point



IS in general is as costly as Clans, because you have to buy Engines, Endo and DHS, after you do that, they become sort of comparable to Clan tech


On average the factions are kind of balanced, because both have real ****** mechs



However, the top tier IS is not on par with top tier Clan, KDK is the strongest overall mech, and it's without debate the best per dollar buy in the game, cause of the 400XL engine bloating the price you can sell it for, cause who needs 3 chassis of the same mech, master and sell the 2 you don't use


so Assault class medal goes to Clans


that's 0 : 1

Heavies
75 tonners, IS contenders Black Knight and Marauder and Timbie on the Clan side


IS has a slight edge in close combat, Timbie wins long range


so lets be generous and say it's even

so

1 : 2


Mediums


Not even a contest, Nova, Crow, Hunchie IIC will blow anything IS has to offer


1 : 3

Lights


ACH is still king

1 : 4



There is no point in playing IS if you just wanna score higher, whenever I farm cbills for something I always take out my Timberwolf (S)


I just keep CAT-K2, MAD-3R and JM6-DD and KGC, because there is 1 thing IS does indeed to better and that's ballistics

[adamts01]

DovisKhan, on 21 July 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

However, the top tier IS is not on par with top tier Clan, KDK is the strongest overall mech, and it's without debate the best per dollar buy in the game, cause of the 400XL engine bloating the price you can sell it for, cause who needs 3 chassis of the same mech, master and sell the 2 you don't use

You're a little off there. Kodiaks can't swap omnipods like other Clan mechs.

[DovisKhan]

adamts01, on 21 July 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

You're a little off there. Kodiaks can't swap omnipods like other Clan mechs.

Like you need any other Kodiak than KDK-3, neutering its firepower using lazors is just a travesty

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Why should you buy IS stuff instead of clan when clans have numerically superior tech? Well, because how the mech feels, not everything is about being as effective as possible, in fact, that is why I dread the day I cross into T2 (probably mid august) because I mostly play IS mechs as clan mechs don't really excite me, nor does playing the most effective ways possible, it feels dull. So if you are someone who has to win, has to be the most effective, ect, ect. Then go buy clan mechs with large percent of their weight being pod space with healthy amount of hard points in your eyes, you do you I will do what feels fun and wait for the Cyclops to drop due to it just has a layout that clicks with how I think a mech should work.

[PhoenixFire55]

How many quirks must Inner Shere get
Before you call it OP
How many seals must a tryhard club
Before they start to nerf skill
And how many times must the LRMs fly
Before they're forever banned?

The answer, my friend, is simply gitgud
The answer is simply gitgud.

[adamts01]

DovisKhan, on 21 July 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

Like you need any other Kodiak than KDK-3, neutering its firepower using lazors is just a travesty

Not going to argue with you there. But you know how it goes, today's trash might be tomorrows gold. I'm just pointing out that it's not the same as mastering 3 Hellbringers and keeping 1.

[DovisKhan]

adamts01, on 21 July 2016 - 12:36 AM, said:

Not going to argue with you there. But you know how it goes, today's trash might be tomorrows gold. I'm just pointing out that it's not the same as mastering 3 Hellbringers and keeping 1.

true

[DovisKhan]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 21 July 2016 - 12:35 AM, said:

Why should you buy IS stuff instead of clan when clans have numerically superior tech? Well, because how the mech feels, not everything is about being as effective as possible, in fact, that is why I dread the day I cross into T2 (probably mid august) because I mostly play IS mechs as clan mechs don't really excite me, nor does playing the most effective ways possible, it feels dull. So if you are someone who has to win, has to be the most effective, ect, ect. Then go buy clan mechs with large percent of their weight being pod space with healthy amount of hard points in your eyes, you do you I will do what feels fun and wait for the Cyclops to drop due to it just has a layout that clicks with how I think a mech should work.

T2 is nothing different, you'll have good players and you'll have brainless chickens running around suiciding


All builds still work as they do in lower tiers


You can even use crap like PPCs to decent results, I just can't take them of my K2, ithey look too good


Ballistics still rule


Lazors still as effective


LRMs still get you plenty free kills

[adamts01]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 July 2016 - 12:36 AM, said:

How many quirks must Inner Shere get
Before you call it OP
How many seals must a tryhard club
Before they start to nerf skill
And how many times must the LRMs fly
Before they're forever banned?

The answer, my friend, is simply gitgud
The answer is simply gitgud.

How does "gitgud" apply to an objective mech comparison, with a cost/benefit analysis? Really, what was your thought process that led to that enlightening comment?

DovisKhan, on 21 July 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

T2 is nothing different, you'll have good players and you'll have brainless chickens running around suiciding

All builds still work as they do in lower tiers

This is all because half of tier 1 matches still have the same skill level of players. Tier is all a sick joke.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

DovisKhan, on 21 July 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

T2 is nothing different, you'll have good players and you'll have brainless chickens running around suiciding


All builds still work as they do in lower tiers


You can even use crap like PPCs to decent results, I just can't take them of my K2, ithey look too good


Ballistics still rule


Lazors still as effective


LRMs still get you plenty free kills

That is good news, just frustrated after entering T3 after T4 as the games feel less... fun? There is less communication, more frustration from pilots, and more difficult matches due to unreliable pilots on either side of the match. Then again, new players are for some reason thrown into T3 rather quickly if they don't lose majority of their matches in their cadet bonus time or so.

Oh well, I have been doing well in T3, already a 6th of the way through it with Phoenix Hawk 1B with ERPPC+3ML and LRMisher Archers so I guess I should do just fine so long as I remember to take a break every other match.

Honestly while the numbers shown above by our spreadsheetwarrior show that clans have better equipment due to it is lighter more compact, and has better range on average, IS still is fun and I still say outside of some outliers, like the KDK-3 which even with the changes is still a monster, the game is rather balanced. If you ignore that lights are needing some help as a class in general, there are exceptions to this rule, the game balance wise is pretty healthy, even in Faction Play. Yes some mechs have some rather nasty number advantages on paper, but, they need a good pilot to do well otherwise even a Kodiak 3 can fall to a ERPPC+3ML ECM equipped Phoenix Hawk coring them out from the front at 240m.

[PhoenixFire55]

adamts01, on 21 July 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

How does "gitgud" apply to an objective mech comparison, with a cost/benefit analysis? Really, what was your thought process that led to that enlightening comment?

Sigh.

Because it a simple fact that with the exception of some clan chassis it is the IS mechs that are top of their weight classes.

Currently:

Battlemaster > Warhawk
Warhammer > TimberWolf
Catapult > EbonJaguar
BlackJack > ShadowCat

And so on and so forth ...

OP claims about how Kodiak-2 is good compared to a Banshee with the same-ish build which is simply silly. Yes, KDK-2 is better than Banshee, because its 5 tons heavier, can safely take an XL engine which gives it about 15t more tonnage for weapons and heatsinks, and most importantly because Banshee is crap. A meta Battlemaster will dissassemble that Kodiak even tho its 15t lighter.

If the OP made a topic named "How Banshee sux compared to Kodiak" then I'd have replied differently, but to make any sort of conclusion about IS vs clan balance based on what he wrote is kinda stupid.

No offense intended tho.

P.S. I mostly hoped that my reworked lyrics will make people smile rather than start throwing tomatoes at me, but whatever ...

[Chuck Jager]

In FW the structure quirks and burn times really make a difference in IS mechs in a push if both teams are equal. I am seeing IS taking heavily quirked heavies just like clan did before the ermlas range nerf.

In solo pugz, just snipe with high mount whatever and you will do good even if your w/l does not (part sarcasm part truth)

FOR GODZ sake remember one good mech IS or Clan is not the representation of the whole line of either side.

[L3mming2]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 July 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:

Sigh.

Because it a simple fact that with the exception of some clan chassis it is the IS mechs that are top of their weight classes.

Currently:

Battlemaster > Warhawk
Warhammer > TimberWolf
Catapult > EbonJaguar
BlackJack > ShadowCat

And so on and so forth ...

OP claims about how Kodiak-2 is good compared to a Banshee with the same-ish build which is simply silly. Yes, KDK-2 is better than Banshee, because its 5 tons heavier, can safely take an XL engine which gives it about 15t more tonnage for weapons and heatsinks, and most importantly because Banshee is crap. A meta Battlemaster will dissassemble that Kodiak even tho its 15t lighter.

If the OP made a topic named "How Banshee sux compared to Kodiak" then I'd have replied differently, but to make any sort of conclusion about IS vs clan balance based on what he wrote is kinda stupid.

No offense intended tho.

P.S. I mostly hoped that my reworked lyrics will make people smile rather than start throwing tomatoes at me, but whatever ...

this is the average of all 75 leaderboard scores for eatch mech

1 nova 3175
2 hunchback IIC 2908
3 stormcrow 2790
4 shadowcat 2693
5 cicada 2643
6 Blackjack 2641
7 shadow hawk 2572
8 hunchback 2535
9 centurion 2518
10 griffin 2483
11 enforcer 2435
12 wolverien 2429
13 crab 2368
14 trebuchet 2308
15 kintaro 2308
16 ice feret 2257
17 vindicator 2141
18 phoenix hawk 2013

so its confirmed the cicida is the best IS medium mech XD

ps dont forget after the leaderboaards they nerfed the BJ again...

pps just to make sure you get it 4 out of 5 clan meds make the top 4 spots... this might be seen as a indication that they are good...

Edited by L3mming2, 21 July 2016 - 01:22 AM.

[adamts01]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 July 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:

P.S. I mostly hoped that my reworked lyrics will make people smile rather than start throwing tomatoes at me, but whatever ...

Ok, lets make up and use those tomatoes for a pizza or something. He makes a valid point though. Forget chassis/variant strength. For the same real money cost, you get a tricked out Clan package or an IS package that requires at least another 25 million c-bills to get to a workable state, between motors, structure, armor.......

[DovisKhan]

Chuck Jager, on 21 July 2016 - 01:05 AM, said:

In FW the structure quirks and burn times really make a difference in IS mechs in a push if both teams are equal. I am seeing IS taking heavily quirked heavies just like clan did before the ermlas range nerf.

In solo pugz, just snipe with high mount whatever and you will do good even if your w/l does not (part sarcasm part truth)

FOR GODZ sake remember one good mech IS or Clan is not the representation of the whole line of either side.

You just forgot to mention that 3 IS ERLL do the same as 2 CLPL, but they weight more, have more heat and more burn time, so yes, Clan is way ahead


The only place where IS is better than Clans is medium weight ballistics, namely UAC5, 3 UAC5 Jager will shred pretty much any mech its weight class it stares at, but that's at medium range, at 800+ poke distance Clans outshine IS by a long shot because their lasers are simply much better

[PhoenixFire55]

L3mming2, on 21 July 2016 - 01:21 AM, said:

this is the average of all 75 leaderboard scores for eatch mech

...

so its confirmed the cicida is the best IS medium mech XD

ps dont forget after the leaderboaards they nerfed the BJ again...

pps just to make sure you get it 4 out of 5 clan meds make the top 4 spots... this might be seen as a indication that they are good...

lol ... Ok, lets discuss if you guys want it to get serious.

What are those leaderboards? They show one thing ... the relative ability of better players to farm PUGs in certain mechs.

Cicada is stronk because it is fast and can farm lots of lemmings scattered all over the map.
Nova is stronk because it can pump out 144 damage in 3 seconds and no lemming survives that.
Punchbag-IIC is stronk because it has high hardpoints and can poke lemmings from 800m away all day long without taking return fire.
Stormcrow is stronk because it can boat streaks and farms solo kills on lights and KMDDs like no tomorrow.
ShadowRat is stronk because it has the magic invisibility box and lemmings don't shoot smth that doesn't have a red box around it.
etc.etc.

So, if you want to balance the game based on your average day in PUGs then yeah, leaderboards tell you a lot.

[Yellonet]

Balance between IS and Clan is worse now that it has been for a while. In almost every match more clan mechs are left standing than IS mechs.