206 replies to this topic

[Wulfen]

I'm certainly not suggesting that I'm an expert here. Scores like this maybe aren't the norm for me (I've had a couple of 1k matches), but I typically score fairly high in pubs, especially once I got the Locusts equipped properly. I learned the hard way not to play the Locust like the heavies want me to. I'm not there to charge ahead and die for them.

I imagine that once you get into higher PSR matches, light pilots probably have a harder time, even good ones. Is it hard to do well in lights like the Locust? Absolutely. Should it be? Well, maybe it should. Light pilots have a unique challenge, in that a couple hits and you're spectating. Do we deserve better rewards because of that? I dunno.

One thing I can say for sure, with my scores, my KDR and all, is that I think the PSR system needs looked at. Light pilots, especially solo ones, are heavily penalized from the get-go.

I'm not equipped to answer in regards to faction or competitive play when it comes to lights - do you guys laugh at light pilots that want to drop into faction warfare (other than Ravens, or ECM mechs)? Is Scouting the only answer there? I'd love to see faction warfare where lights have a role besides separate 4v4 matches.

[Idealsuspect]

dario03, on 25 July 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

While that is better than nothing I don't think it wouldn't be as good as buffing lights. Just increasing rewards would get more spread in the classes but buffs would mean more cbills by actually doing more in the match. So you would get more spread across the weight classes and better balance.

yea of course it will not buff lights but why lights need to be buffed now after resize, massive quriks nerf and massive structures quirks nerf for light mechs ?
Coze there is too many mediums and heavies .. not becose of others lights rights? Specially with all thoses streaks boats and recent viper release the best anti-light ( if we forget all no-skills streaks boats ofc )

Also if you solve empty light queue number well you solve a part of light durability problem in same time, i guess.


But give cbills bonus to empty queue is maybe agaisnt pauleconomy also forget this we arent PGI they dont need us.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 25 July 2016 - 02:43 PM.

[Idealsuspect]

Wulfen, on 25 July 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

I'm certainly not suggesting that I'm an expert here. Scores like this maybe aren't the norm for me (I've had a couple of 1k matches), but I typically score fairly high in pubs, especially once I got the Locusts equipped properly. I learned the hard way not to play the Locust like the heavies want me to. I'm not there to charge ahead and die for them.

Man nice story, but ... are the locust all the lights mechs in MWO ? Locust was the only light to be resized down, artic wasn't resized and all others lights were resized to be taller than before... Also what is your point.?

And plz you say " but I typically score fairly high in pub " but if i look yours stats i see
113 games 84 kills, 0,88 W/L and 183 matchscore average for light class.
And 0 games played for others weight class.


Also what we are talking about when you say " i typically score fairly high" and what your screen have to say to the OP ??

Edit 3 second after post : 114 games 84 kills, 0,87 W/L and 183 matchscore average for light class.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 25 July 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

The light pilots are not asking for the over quirkiness of structure that the assaults and heavies have.

The light pilots are not asking for the over inflated quirkiness of agility that assaults and heavies have

The light pilots are not asking for the over inflated quirkiness of weapon quirks that assaults and heavies have

The light pilots ARE asking to make the playing field a bit more even.

[Jables McBarty]

dario03, on 25 July 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

While that is better than nothing I don't think it wouldn't be as good as buffing lights. Just increasing rewards would get more spread in the classes but buffs would mean more cbills by actually doing more in the match. So you would get more spread across the weight classes and better balance.

And yet....perhaps with the artificial queue inflation, more people would be forced to see how non-viable the class is, and would start clamoring for balance.

Wulfen, on 25 July 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

...
I'm not equipped to answer in regards to faction or competitive play when it comes to lights - do you guys laugh at light pilots that want to drop into faction warfare (other than Ravens, or ECM mechs)? Is Scouting the only answer there? I'd love to see faction warfare where lights have a role besides separate 4v4 matches.

On reflection, the heavy/assault-oriented gameplay of Invasion is what kept me out of FP for a very long time.

[Flutterguy]

Idealsuspect, on 25 July 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Also what we are talking about when you say " i typically score fairly high" and what your screen have to say to the OP ??

Edit 3 second after post : 114 games 84 kills, 0,87 W/L and 183 matchscore average for light class.

Let's be fair, those stats probably actually put him on the higher end of the average lights performance curve.

[Tarl Cabot]

Darian DelFord, on 25 July 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

The light pilots are not asking for the over quirkiness of structure that the assaults and heavies have.

The light pilots are not asking for the over inflated quirkiness of agility that assaults and heavies have

The light pilots are not asking for the over inflated quirkiness of weapon quirks that assaults and heavies have

The light pilots ARE asking to make the playing field a bit more even.

When are lights feared? Either when one was on your six, after the fact, or when there is more than one light or light/med around you. Not all mechs are meant to out by themselves, but most lights have the speed to dictate their location. But most light players do the solo job, and rarely is there any communication. hmm......

Now, how long would mechs last if both armor/internal structure was still at BT base value? Would not matter if it was a light or an assault. Of course having seen a few of the early closed beta videos, PGI staff/etc never really used any sort of tactics except to close in on each other and start firing away, leading us to the 2x armor, and the inadvertently 2x internal structure.

If PGI had used more "lore" and BT/Solaris baselines, the one thing lights would not be doing would be knife fights. After 1 or 2 alphas they would need to run away since their top speed would have been reduced due an actual working Heat Scale.

So what if PGI gives a few structural quirks to lights? That would equate to 1 medium laser damage or less, but looks good on paper though. Or quicker firing weapons, either cooldown and/or duration? For IS mechs, the first step would be to make isXL engine as durable as cXL with different penalties. Again, one light should not be knife fighting anything but another light or a light medium but using hit and run tactics.

PGI could triple the base amount of armor/is of mechs across the board which that would increase TTK. But even in lore/novels, the inexperienced light pilots never fared well. And there is no FFA (Solaris-type fight) though many Pug drops can feel like that at times.

1. Add obscene structural/weapon quirks because that appears most are suggesting, give lights the structural of a medium, or even a heavy/assault ROFL!!! /sorry..
2. PGI should but most likely would not reconsider reviewing and 1redo their rescaling of lights. There is a min Max Game Scale and the locust crossed that line, imho
3. Make isXL durable as the cXL
4. 3x armor/structural across the board.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 25 July 2016 - 03:32 PM.

[Morticia Mellian]

Just had a beautiful match with my Locust-1E with over 600 dmg, over 400 match score, on HPG Manifold domination. Most of that was sticking to the middle below, undermining that nice push by the opposing team that kept our heavies/assaults from rushing in as well. If they focused on holding my teammates out, I laser knife them. If they focused on me, I run weaving between them letting off some shots while causing team damage between them as they get hit in the back or flanked by my team.

I only got back into Locusts yesterday after a couple of weeks with Wolverines, Arctic Cheetah, and short stint with a Wolfhound. Whoever says Lights are useless now after the nerfs do not know what they are talking about. Those saying lights are OP especially the Locust simply do not know how to fight them. I was pretty beating up and one good shot away from getting legged or cored.

[topgun505]

GreenHell, on 22 July 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Really... I've heard people say the exact opposite to the OP.

Imho a couple of lights ARE combat effective.

FTFY

[Graal Bladefury]

Lights should not be as combat capable as heavier mechs. That being said, there should be substantial benefit to having lights on the battlefield. Maps are too small for the speed difference of light mechs to be beneficial strategically, as opposed to tactically. The greater speed of lights does not really provide that much of a benefit when it comes to scouting, simply because scouting is not important enough. Close in scouting is far too dangerous for lights to do effectively (without being a sacrificial lamb) and too easily provided by a UAV. Long range scouting just isn't really needed. If long range, strategic scouting was important, every team would have dedicated scouts and dedicated scout hunters.

The main thing comes down to damage. Lights aren't supposed to be doing the same damage as larger mechs, but damage and kills are pretty much the only things that give cbills or xp. If a light occupies 3 or 4 enemy mechs on the left flank with a game of "chase the squirrel" for a minute while his team is hitting the enemy on the right flank, he gets no reward for that. If a light holds target on an assault (staying in LOS and dodging fire the whole time) for his team's LRMs to get lock, he gets no reward for that.

[dario03]

Morticia Mellian, on 25 July 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

Just had a beautiful match with my Locust-1E with over 600 dmg, over 400 match score, on HPG Manifold domination. Most of that was sticking to the middle below, undermining that nice push by the opposing team that kept our heavies/assaults from rushing in as well. If they focused on holding my teammates out, I laser knife them. If they focused on me, I run weaving between them letting off some shots while causing team damage between them as they get hit in the back or flanked by my team.

I only got back into Locusts yesterday after a couple of weeks with Wolverines, Arctic Cheetah, and short stint with a Wolfhound. Whoever says Lights are useless now after the nerfs do not know what they are talking about. Those saying lights are OP especially the Locust simply do not know how to fight them. I was pretty beating up and one good shot away from getting legged or cored.

Useless? No.
Weaker than heavies and assaults by to much? Yes.

[DrxAbstract]

Graal Bladefury, on 25 July 2016 - 09:11 PM, said:

Lights should not be as combat capable as heavier mechs. That being said, there should be substantial benefit to having lights on the battlefield. Maps are too small for the speed difference of light mechs to be beneficial strategically, as opposed to tactically. The greater speed of lights does not really provide that much of a benefit when it comes to scouting, simply because scouting is not important enough. Close in scouting is far too dangerous for lights to do effectively (without being a sacrificial lamb) and too easily provided by a UAV. Long range scouting just isn't really needed. If long range, strategic scouting was important, every team would have dedicated scouts and dedicated scout hunters.

The main thing comes down to damage. Lights aren't supposed to be doing the same damage as larger mechs, but damage and kills are pretty much the only things that give cbills or xp. If a light occupies 3 or 4 enemy mechs on the left flank with a game of "chase the squirrel" for a minute while his team is hitting the enemy on the right flank, he gets no reward for that. If a light holds target on an assault (staying in LOS and dodging fire the whole time) for his team's LRMs to get lock, he gets no reward for that.

Consider for a moment that the majority of Lights were not in a great place and a handful of them, specific variants, barely held on to 'adequate' status before the recent changes and that most Mediums needed some more tweaks to be in the right spot. Now, remove some of the quirks for Lights and make them all larger - Think about that for a moment... Now think about it some more... Get it now?

Lights are not Lights anymore; They are Mediums with 35% less Armor+Structure and Firepower.

If being a Medium pre-patch was barely sufficient and most Lights were crap, how does increasing Light Mech size to Medium Mech levels while removing a few various quirks from them not qualify as a blatantly stupid development choice that exemplifies incompetence or insanity... likely both. That this concept seems to evade opponents of Light Mechs as they justify their nonsensical arguments is appalling.

The T3-5 crowd coming in here exclaiming "Look what I did in mine, they're fine." - Good for you. Going from pre-K to real life is going to be one hell of a shock once you realize you were swimming in the kiddie pool the whole time and the deep end is an abyss filled with clones of the Irwin stingray.

There are, and should be, many differences between the weight classes... But the fundamental difference should always remain: Play Style. Mechs in MWO are not a progress ladder and heavier Mechs should not, nor ever, mean 'better Mechs'. MWO being a pure fighting oriented game with little else to offer but fledgling strategic mediocrity, every Mech of every weight class should be tactically sound in combat... Currently they are not, and what you're seeing with the Light queues is not proof people want easy mode or that most pilots suck - It's empirical evidence there is a massively disproportionate imbalance between the weight classes... Light Mechs especially.

A Light should do comparable DPS as an Assault. Not Damage Per Shot, mind you, but DPSecond. More shots for comparable damage, less armor to go faster, more hectic and hair raising game play style... Damage should be a slight but steady increase as you progress from Lights to Mediums, Mediums to Heavies and Heavies to Assaults as Speed+Armor are the reverse... That's not how it currently is. Heavies and Assaults have insane firepower; Absolutely revolting, disgustingly more than they should. Combined with the movement and structure/armor quirks, MWO very much has turned into a 'bigger is better' game and the obvious end result of that is one completely defunct weight class and one weight class that's barely holding on... Sound familiar? It should - That's what's going on in MWO right now... I'm shocked, really.

All you blowhards suggesting Lights should have more 'strategic' use to compensate for their lack of combat prowess please wake up; It's a FIGHTING game... Or just do that long walk and short pier thing.

[DAYLEET]

Im happy to report that i have seen light queues being at 20% 2 third of the night. They all did as lights always did, 1 or 2 were better than most in the team, the rest either passing the "i contributed" level or got creamed early(like many of every weight class did). Looks like people have the power to learn and adapt. The old meta of lights going in the trenches from start to finish is gone. Dont mean they sucks, just mean you have to look at your loadout, maybe even the Variant of your Chassis and ofcourse gamestyle. No more excuses.

[L3mming2]

El Bandito, on 23 July 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

^
|
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What he said.





There is no way we can have stable 25% Light queue. If we make Lights just as easy to play as Heavies for the average players, then actual good Light pilots will basically seal club the pug queue with their improved Lights.

right now good heavy pilots basically seal club the pug queue...

[El Bandito]

L3mming2, on 26 July 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

right now good heavy pilots basically seal club the pug queue...

Which is why we need to decouple engine size and twist rate, but that's for another thread.

Also when a Light is quirked enough to do it, it is 10x more annoying than a Heavy.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 July 2016 - 12:48 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

DAYLEET, on 26 July 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

Im happy to report that i have seen light queues being at 20% 2 third of the night. They all did as lights always did, 1 or 2 were better than most in the team, the rest either passing the "i contributed" level or got creamed early(like many of every weight class did). Looks like people have the power to learn and adapt. The old meta of lights going in the trenches from start to finish is gone. Dont mean they sucks, just mean you have to look at your loadout, maybe even the Variant of your Chassis and ofcourse gamestyle. No more excuses.

As of this second: Light 3%, Medium 24%, Heavy 34%, Assault 34%... Why doesnt it equal 100%? o.O... Buff Lights!

See - I can peek at the queue, make assumptions from incomplete data and make irrelevant conclusions too! ... Except... my data set extends over a period of 2 years rather than 2/3rds of a single day and indicates single-digit Light queue percentages to be the overwhelming majority... I'm un-happy to report.

[DrxAbstract]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 12:47 AM, said:

Which is why we need to decouple engine size and twist rate, but that's for another thread.

Also when a Light is quirked enough to do it, it is 10x more annoying than a Heavy.

I'd say 2x more, personally... Only because Lights can meld with the shadows and appear from the bottom of the screen right as its target turns from looking in its direction.

On that note, no Lights have been quirked enough to seal club like a Heavy in years... Looking at you, FS9-A. ACH came close once, probably 8/10th of the way there, but not quite. The Oxide once attempted to reach this mythic pinnacle of achievement, but alas was washed from the cliff face by a torrential downpour of tears... For the gods atop mount devnoobs hath decreed: Never again shall any Mech of shallow step ascend to the throne of success atop the mountain of questionable competence and stone!

[L3mming2]

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

You want lights, that have less armor, less firepower and cost less cbills be equal 1v1 vs, and lets be specific, a TBR? That is beyond asinine. What would be the point of any other weight class if lights are equal? Cbills is a good measurement since this is a f2p game and BV, which is a real value, is not found. Why would the cheapest mechs be equal the most expensive mechs? That make zero sense.

Im starting to think light pilots want everything and not give up anything...


Obviously you arent following a thing Im saying. I've never once said lights are good or too good. I said maybe 3 chassis of lights are good. All others suck. What I've been saying over and over is that lights should NOT be viable in our current TDM game modes. I'll use my COD analogy, a light is like bringing a pistol vs assault rifles in COD.

so you want to balance on c-bill value... k my lct-E with endo fero and DHS its 6.7 mil add to that siesmic, redar dep, and fall damage reduction, +2 weapon mods, thats +24 mil

for a total of 30.7 mil...

now a timber laser vomit mech is 16.15 mil +18 mil modules thats 34.15

so a timber should be 11% better on avrage.. i am totaly up for that make it happen...

[Besh]

L3mming2, on 26 July 2016 - 01:11 AM, said:

so you want to balance on c-bill value... k my lct-E with endo fero and DHS its 6.7 mil add to that siesmic, redar dep, and fall damage reduction, +2 weapon mods, thats +24 mil

for a total of 30.7 mil...

now a timber laser vomit mech is 16.15 mil +18 mil modules thats 34.15

so a timber should be 11% better on avrage.. i am totaly up for that make it happen...

And it would STILL favour the Timber Pilot, since its so much easier raking in the CBills with, as compared to any Light .

Edited by Besh, 26 July 2016 - 01:36 AM.

[L3mming2]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 12:47 AM, said:

Which is why we need to decouple engine size and twist rate, but that's for another thread.

Also when a Light is quirked enough to do it, it is 10x more annoying than a Heavy.

there you put the finger on the soar spot, lights are underpowerd but even than heavy and assault pilots want to nerf them because being outplayed by a light and to die the death of a thosand cuts is so annoying to them that they would be happy to see them removed compleetly, baring that made so bad that its nearly inposible for a light to do that again to them..