206 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

DrxAbstract, on 26 July 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

I'd say 2x more, personally... Only because Lights can meld with the shadows and appear from the bottom of the screen right as its target turns from looking in its direction.

On that note, no Lights have been quirked enough to seal club like a Heavy in years... Looking at you, FS9-A. ACH came close once, probably 8/10th of the way there, but not quite. The Oxide once attempted to reach this mythic pinnacle of achievement, but alas was washed from the cliff face by a torrential downpour of tears... For the gods atop mount devnoobs hath decreed: Never again shall any Mech of shallow step ascend to the throne of success atop the mountain of questionable competence and stone!

The point remains. Lights are gonna be so heavily quirked if they are to be popular with the masses, that it is far better for PGI to develop role warfare better, than to give them Heavy class competence.

[Darian DelFord]

DrxAbstract, on 26 July 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

As of this second: Light 3%, Medium 24%, Heavy 34%, Assault 34%... Why doesnt it equal 100%? o.O... Buff Lights!

See - I can peek at the queue, make assumptions from incomplete data and make irrelevant conclusions too! ... Except... my data set extends over a period of 2 years rather than 2/3rds of a single day and indicates single-digit Light queue percentages to be the overwhelming majority... I'm un-happy to report.

Which is more the norm nowadays than the exception.... the only time that I have seen it consistently go above 10% is EST Prime Time..... Usually 8pm to 10pm... after that it goes back to single digits again

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 12:47 AM, said:

Which is why we need to decouple engine size and twist rate, but that's for another thread.

Also when a Light is quirked enough to do it, it is 10x more annoying than a Heavy.

This really is a big part of the problem. A 100 ton mech should NOT be able to face its rear torso in less than 2 seconds, nor twist like they are "Chubby Checker"


And for those that do no know who Chubby Checker is....

Edited by Darian DelFord, 26 July 2016 - 04:38 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Why would I want to play in a light? IMO lights are horrible. Are you saying they are viable? Maybe English isnt your first language.


Look closer, I've barely played all since then. Game is a borefest right now.

Nope, my point is: you should play them to actually experience how terrible they really are (they are so fragile, it is a bad joke). You know, it is always better to experience something for yourself when you talk about it.

Idealsuspect, on 25 July 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

Just give Cbills bonus to empty queue like merc have contract bonus for take empty faction contract.

Oh wait i'am not PGI and only PGI know what is good for MWO also it's better i stfu

Lights would still suck. An additional CB reward would just mean to put some cream on a pile of poo hoping that someone would bite into it

Graal Bladefury, on 25 July 2016 - 09:11 PM, said:

Lights should not be as combat capable as heavier mechs. That being said, there should be substantial benefit to having lights on the battlefield. Maps are too small for the speed difference of light mechs to be beneficial strategically, as opposed to tactically. The greater speed of lights does not really provide that much of a benefit when it comes to scouting, simply because scouting is not important enough. Close in scouting is far too dangerous for lights to do effectively (without being a sacrificial lamb) and too easily provided by a UAV. Long range scouting just isn't really needed. If long range, strategic scouting was important, every team would have dedicated scouts and dedicated scout hunters.

The main thing comes down to damage. Lights aren't supposed to be doing the same damage as larger mechs, but damage and kills are pretty much the only things that give cbills or xp. If a light occupies 3 or 4 enemy mechs on the left flank with a game of "chase the squirrel" for a minute while his team is hitting the enemy on the right flank, he gets no reward for that. If a light holds target on an assault (staying in LOS and dodging fire the whole time) for his team's LRMs to get lock, he gets no reward for that.

Speed is really overrated. Why? It let's you reposition quickly but a medium can do that as well in a reasonable time. However, the agility quirks on most heavies and assaults totally negate the light's speed because it is easy to keep a light in the front field.

However, now the size of many light's got increased as well...which means easier to hit on top of that.

This also goes for harassing or sniping. Mediums are far better suited because they can eat an alpha if you pop up somewhere and someone is looking into your direction.

Most lights without ECM have a hard time.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 26 July 2016 - 05:49 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

The point remains. Lights are gonna be so heavily quirked if they are to be popular with the masses, that it is far better for PGI to develop role warfare better, than to give them Heavy class competence.

...or maybe PGI could just take some of those bloated agility quirks on the heavies (often 30%+ accel/dece, turn rate, yaw e.g. a Grasshopper Acceleration35% Deceleration35% Turn Rate15% Torso Yaw Speed35%...Jenner IIC 0% in all all regards. Yeah, balance my arse)

Oh well, if someone touched those sick agility quirks on the heavies so that heavies actually moved like heavies, the forum would be washed away in a flood of tears.

And I bet lights would be nerfed again afterwards haha

Edited by Bush Hopper, 26 July 2016 - 06:00 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

The point remains. Lights are gonna be so heavily quirked if they are to be popular with the masses, that it is far better for PGI to develop role warfare better, than to give them Heavy class competence.

Or not... An improvement to the Light situation doesnt necessarily require changes to Lights themselves or only Lights and you know it.

Role Warfare always has been a farce. PGI has no idea how to do it because they cant, and you know that too. They lack the vision and imagination to even conceive it, much less do it or get it right. 2 Years and they cant even get FW off the ground, which was supposed to be the embodiment of Role Warfare in MWO... Tell me: Does it resemble its parent idea at all?

And how, with Role Warfare, are they going to satisfy all the people that play Lights purely for the gameplay style, which would be the majority of them... Ship them to the Island™? All Mechs need the same combat effectiveness in different flavors first and foremost... Then PGI can try working on Role Warfare.

[El Bandito]

Bush Hopper, on 26 July 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

...or maybe PGI could just take some of those bloated agility quirks on the heavies (often 30%+ accel/dece, turn rate, yaw e.g. a Grasshopper Acceleration35% Deceleration35% Turn Rate15% Torso Yaw Speed35%...Jenner IIC 0% in all all regards. Yeah, balance my arse)

Oh well, if someone touched those sick agility quirks on the heavies so that heavies actually moved like heavies, the forum would be washed away in a flood of tears.

And I bet lights would be nerfed again afterwards haha

That's a start.

[Darian DelFord]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

That's a start.

Which part...... Taking away all the over inflated agility quirks from the heavies and assaults...... or nerfing lights again?

[El Bandito]

Darian DelFord, on 26 July 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Which part...... Taking away all the over inflated agility quirks from the heavies and assaults...... or nerfing lights again?

Whichever makes you start a thread.

[Darian DelFord]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Whichever makes you start a thread.

heheheh Don't tempt me

Maybe I need to take a page out of the Heavy and Assault pilot's playbook and spam the forums with agility threads against the heavies seeing as they love to post about OP lights.

[4rcs1ne]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

The point remains. Lights are gonna be so heavily quirked if they are to be popular with the masses, that it is far better for PGI to develop role warfare better, than to give them Heavy class competence.

I agree that it would be better if PGI did develop a relevant, good paying role warfare system. However, as of now, this isn't the case. Therefore, lights as a whole need to be more competitive. Am I asking for lights to be as good as heavies? Not at all. All I'm trying to say, is that PGI needs to slightly close the gap in the effectiveness of lights vs any other mech class.

[Darian DelFord]

Matt2496, on 26 July 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

I agree that it would be better if PGI did develop a relevant, good paying role warfare system. However, as of now, this isn't the case. Therefore, lights as a whole need to be more competitive. Am I asking for lights to be as good as heavies? Not at all. All I'm trying to say, is that PGI needs to slightly close the gap in the effectiveness of lights vs any other mech class.

The biggest issue.... IMHO.... really is agility..... trying to stay in the back arc of an assault is damn near impossible..... even the DW and stalker which used to be almost sure kills, can shake all but a locust loose.

[El Bandito]

Darian DelFord, on 26 July 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

The biggest issue.... IMHO.... really is agility..... trying to stay in the back arc of an assault is damn near impossible..... even the DW and stalker which used to be almost sure kills, can shake all but a locust loose.

And... what changed? The Whale and Stalker do not have agility quirks, while many Lights got accel/decel/turn quirks.

[Darian DelFord]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

And... what changed? The Whale and Stalker do not have agility quirks, while many Lights got accel/decel/turn quirks.

Prior to the "Great Re-scaling" staying behind those two mechs was easier than any other assaults. They were the two almost sure kills. Now.... not so much. They are much more difficult to kill in the 35 ton mechs vs pre patch. Even with the last patch with the accel and decel quirks to the Jenner... trying to stay behind them is not near as easy as it once was.

Don't ask me why... I have not been able to put my finger on it yet. I am currently about done testing the Jenner Changes.... moving on in a day or so to the other mechs.

[SHIN BRODAMA]

I can't comment on the 35 tonners as I don't play them often, but I've still been wrecking face with my ACH in solo and group qp (several 6-700 dmg games with SPLs). As for some of these posts... Lights are not supposed to be viable in single combat with heavies/assaults. They get their benefits thru coordination (hunting in packs) and mobility (freedom to engage and disengage).

Edited by Sho sa ShinYodama, 26 July 2016 - 10:50 AM.

[DAYLEET]

DrxAbstract, on 26 July 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

As of this second: Light 3%, Medium 24%, Heavy 34%, Assault 34%... Why doesnt it equal 100%? o.O... Buff Lights!
See - I can peek at the queue, make assumptions from incomplete data and make irrelevant conclusions too! ...

Better yet, dont peek at queue and play light consistently. Most of the night yesterday the light queue was healthy, thats a fact for the hours that i played. Maybe it will go back down for the next 3 hours and just keep fluctuating. If theres anything we can take from this is that people are slowly getting tired of their shiny new toys.

DrxAbstract, on 26 July 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

Except... my data set extends over a period of 2 years rather than 2/3rds of a single day and indicates single-digit Light queue percentages to be the overwhelming majority... I'm un-happy to report.

Single digit queues for light were never the norm, it was always around 12%-15% and still under 20 when we had stupid strong lights. How strong/weak lights are isnt a good representation of the queue% because lights targets a smaller percentage of pilots.

When you get super strong assault mech released and medium mech events with new cool medium mech released and you couple that with a rebalance that is controversial you can expect the light queue to get under 10. It's gona get back up to where it belongs which is about 17%. Bad news though, more heavies get released and more assault gets released in the near future and nothing for light pilots. You cant sustain an acceptable queue% of the least popular weight class if you give all the new toys to the others.

Also dont be unhappy about low % of lights, they never were intended to be easy mode and the bigger tank with more hardpoint/armor will always more alluring regardless of balance.

BTW it makes a hell of a difference when you get 3 lights rather than 1 in a team. Its much more balanced when you arent the only light in the team and it makes match much more interesting and ofcourse it suddenly make sense to play something else than skirmish.

Am i saying lights dont need love at all? no, but im tired of insane quirks and magical powers and powercreep and the "lights are crap". There was a culling, im not denying that, im even embracing it, dont mean lights wont get backup. Lets balance downward not upward again. PGI talked about increasing tkk and yet they lowered it...again.

Edited by DAYLEET, 26 July 2016 - 10:57 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Sho sa ShinYodama, on 26 July 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

I can't comment on the 35 tonners as I don't play them often, but I've still been wrecking face with my ACH in solo and group qp (several 6-700 dmg games with SPLs). As for some of these posts... Lights are not supposed to be viable in single combat with heavies/assaults. They get their benefits thru coordination (hunting in packs) and mobility (freedom to engage and disengage).

Problem is.... the Cheetah is the only premiere light left, that has not lost its identity,

[Clownwarlord]

They are combat viable, you just have to be better at playing how a light mech was intended. A light mech was intended to not get hit, a light mech was intended to scout, a light mech was intended to shoot while not getting shot, a light mech was intended to sneak up on its target, a light mech was intended to swarm an enemy mech in a pack, but a light mech was not meant to be able to run through the enemy on its own getting shot numerous times. As for the volume of many mechs being increased, light mech most assuredly, you have to change your play style more so to play a light how it was intended because now that you are at a realistic scale for your tonnage.

So basically get good, again. Just like when any other mechanic changes or so on that affects your game play to change meta you have to change and find a new groove.

[dario03]

Captain Luffy, on 26 July 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

They are combat viable, you just have to be better at playing how a light mech was intended. A light mech was intended to not get hit, a light mech was intended to scout, a light mech was intended to shoot while not getting shot, a light mech was intended to sneak up on its target, a light mech was intended to swarm an enemy mech in a pack, but a light mech was not meant to be able to run through the enemy on its own getting shot numerous times. As for the volume of many mechs being increased, light mech most assuredly, you have to change your play style more so to play a light how it was intended because now that you are at a realistic scale for your tonnage.

So basically get good, again. Just like when any other mechanic changes or so on that affects your game play to change meta you have to change and find a new groove.

Or just play heavies and assaults since they are just overall better since even playing lights as "intended" was nerfed. And bigs were already better pre nerfs so no amount of play style changes will change that.

[Darian DelFord]

Captain Luffy, on 26 July 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

They are combat viable, you just have to be better at playing how a light mech was intended. A light mech was intended to not get hit, a light mech was intended to scout, a light mech was intended to shoot while not getting shot, a light mech was intended to sneak up on its target, a light mech was intended to swarm an enemy mech in a pack, but a light mech was not meant to be able to run through the enemy on its own getting shot numerous times. As for the volume of many mechs being increased, light mech most assuredly, you have to change your play style more so to play a light how it was intended because now that you are at a realistic scale for your tonnage.

So basically get good, again. Just like when any other mechanic changes or so on that affects your game play to change meta you have to change and find a new groove.

LOL

Obscene Agility quirks on heavies and assaults......Obscene structure quirks on heavies and assaults.....The Great Re-Scale increasing some lights size by up to 25%.......No need to scout in MWO.......Seismic Sensor........Need a light queue in order to have light packs......

How about you get good with the facts. How much time have you spent in lights since the Re-scaling?

Edited by Darian DelFord, 26 July 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

I love all the comments "lights are supposed to hunt in packs."

Tough to do when you are the only light and the three mediums in your lance hop on the deathball.

And then the argument that the peek&poke light makes it a viable weight class.

Okay, what of the LCT-3S? 4M hardpoints and 1E hardpoint. poking with 1ML is useless. Switch to 1MPL? Okay, but now I've sacrificed range. Oh, mount a single LPL? Uh, okay...I'll just hop in my 1V then.

Actually, here's my theory: The light striker/knife fighter was the apex predator of the P&P warrior. Now that the predator is gone, the P&P warrior is wreaking havoc on the ecosystem. Brawlers--who once lamented the light striker's beneficial predation--will soon succumb to extinction as the population of their competition, no longer kept in check, runs wild.

Bush Hopper, on 26 July 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

Speed is really overrated. Why? It let's you reposition quickly but a medium can do that as well in a reasonable time.

This, a thousand times.

You get spotted by a SCR within 400m, you're dead. Because even with your higher speed (max 160% if you are in a Locust), as you dodge to avoid fire and stay under cover, they end up closing with you and killing your ***. And I'm not talking about streakcrows, any crows.