185 replies to this topic

[JaxRiot]

Deathlike, on 27 July 2016 - 10:21 PM, said:

To be fair, there are some simpler ideas. The thing is that more complicated things need a good base foundation first.. or it's just not going to work the way you'd like them to.

Ok. Thats fair to say.

But where are the more immediate and simple 'Base' ideas that those are supposed to grow from?

Dont get me wrong, some of those ideas sound interesting, but they seem very extreme. Very complicated, costly, and time consuming. Nowhere near simple nor immediate like I thought the Round Table thing was supposed to be about.

I may be wrong, but it looks like they are trying to use this Round Table Discussion as a platform to pitch their own vision of what they want FP to be instead contributing much more immediate and simple tweaks like the Round Table is intended for.

Guess we will find out tomorrow for sure

Edited by JaxRiot, 28 July 2016 - 12:19 AM.

[Elizander]

Can this game stop dropping our mechs with our backs facing the enemy? :3

[meteorol]

AnTi90d, on 27 July 2016 - 11:48 PM, said:

The crapmap:

• prevents small group dropcallers from being able to organize pugs because of the lack of spacial relationship and the lack of knowing which way they're even facing. Look at that guy over to the left. Is he sniping or is he looking west? The dropcaller has no idea, because he's currently engaged in trying to not die.

• prevents pugs from knowing if they're correctly lined up with the rest of the people.

• prevents pugs from being able to react to threats that come out of nowhere that their team sees. ECM mech on the hill and the pilots that see it turn around but the pug just continues to look down the hallway because the map doesn't let him know that his team turned around.

You people only see the game through the eyes of someone in a coordinated unit and have no ability to see from the pug's perspective.

And non of that was any different with the old map, either. Pugs weren't able to line up correctly or respond to "threads that came out of nowhere" with the old map aswell.

Listen, I'm solo pugging 99% of my CW drops. I have been playing CW since the very first second, and i played a lot more CW than regular queue for large parts of my time spent with MWO since CW has been released. I played countless CW matches before the new map was released. I continued solo pugging after it was released. From my experience, the new map made zero difference.

PUGs get crushed because a shocking amount of them is unable to deal more 400 damage between 4 mechs, are unable to hit an atlas within 100m, and never learned the easiest concepts of this game (like torsotwisting). Reality is that there is a considerable amount of players in CW that is so bad you are basically playing 11v12 if you get them on your team. Often more like 7 vs. 9 or something like that, because both teams get them (in a pure pug vs. pug match)

Thinking the new map makes any notable difference in how good or bad pugs do (even in pure pug v. pug situations 48:11 rolls without a single word spoken on the winning team are not uncommon) is delusional at best, imo.

I have played WAY too many CW pug matches to believe the map makes a difference, honestly.

[XX Sulla XX]

In the end the problem with CW is... its just not fun. The basic design of the game play is just well not fun. Thats the place to start.

[Johnny Z]

meteorol, on 28 July 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

And non of that was any different with the old map, either. Pugs weren't able to line up correctly or respond to "threads that came out of nowhere" with the old map aswell.

Listen, I'm solo pugging 99% of my CW drops. I have been playing CW since the very first second, and i played a lot more CW than regular queue for large parts of my time spent with MWO since CW has been released. I played countless CW matches before the new map was released. I continued solo pugging after it was released. From my experience, the new map made zero difference.

PUGs get crushed because a shocking amount of them is unable to deal more 400 damage between 4 mechs, are unable to hit an atlas within 100m, and never learned the easiest concepts of this game (like torsotwisting). Reality is that there is a considerable amount of players in CW that is so bad you are basically playing 11v12 if you get them on your team. Often more like 7 vs. 9 or something like that, because both teams get them (in a pure pug vs. pug match)

Thinking the new map makes any notable difference in how good or bad pugs do (even in pure pug v. pug situations 48:11 rolls without a single word spoken on the winning team are not uncommon) is delusional at best, imo.

I have played WAY too many CW pug matches to believe the map makes a difference, honestly.

The invasion maps being used are half done. They are missing the ECM towers and lots of stuff. Really.

More importantly those invasion maps are only a tiny part of faction play when its more done.

I am very disappointed that this game is taking so long to be built though. Also they should tell players whats going on because most replies on this subject are 2 years behind.

Edited by Johnny Z, 28 July 2016 - 12:57 AM.

[AnTi90d]

(Foreward: Kurita has zero units that can form 12-man groups, so if you see a Kuritan group, it's either mercenaries, a PUG from our Teamspeak, or one small Kuritan group among skittles. Literally, all Kurita can do is PUG in one form or another.)

meteorol, on 28 July 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

And none of that was any different with the old map, either. Pugs weren't able to line up correctly... with the old map.

I disagree. With the good minimap, dropcallers could tell people to line up and face a certain way (yeah, sometimes it required repeating yourself a bit) and visually see whether they were facing towards their assigned direction on the minimap and whether people were too far forward or back. People could look at their maps and see what everyone else was doing and do that.

Now, they bark the order and just hope for the best.. and when people look at their map, it's just a sloppy jumble of blue lines.

Removing tactical information about your team mates from the minimap hurts people's ability to coordinate.

meteorol, on 28 July 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

PUGs get crushed because a shocking amount of them is unable to deal more 400 damage between 4 mechs, are unable to hit an Atlas within 100m, and never learned the easiest concepts of this game (like torso twisting).

A good minimap provides tactical information; it isn't a magic wand that makes pugs more accurate or skilled. I never claimed such.

meteorol, on 28 July 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

Thinking the new map makes any notable difference in how good or bad pugs do (even in pure pug v. pug situations 48:11 rolls without a single word spoken on the winning team are not uncommon) is delusional at best, imo.

Thinking that the removal of tactical information used to coordinate with your team has no effect on a team's performance, especially if that team has never or doesn't often work together is delusional, at best, IMO.

[Johnny Z]

meteorol, on 27 July 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

What really holds CW back are the terrible, terrible maps. Some of the worst mapdesign i have seen in any game i played online, ever.

All ideas about resources, rewards etc. are mood as long as maps aren't fixed. People won't magically start playing CW if the maps stay as terrible as they are. The core gameplay of CW is critically flawed, which is the reason why it was a bust from the very first second.

Fixing maps should be their first and highest priority before everything else.

No offense. But see this is a reply that would have been relevant before phase 1 was out and players could use their heads a bit and figure out where the game is going. There are like 1000 of these replies. Really they should tell players whats up so these guys don't look silly.

I feel like going into a detailed description because they havnt bothered telling players. Phase 1 was like 2 years ago......

Edited by Johnny Z, 28 July 2016 - 01:08 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Combined queues eliminate all the factors that drive the current pugfarming and more or less require all units to drop in attack queue and pugs flocking to defense queue. It also eliminates the balance issues between attacking and defending. Attack takes worlds, defense just buys you time.

So if you have split attack/defend queues you'll always have premades in attack and pugs in defense and an inevitable grind victory for attackers as the odds play out.

Combining the queues means everyone attacks, defends and counter-attacks. It means pugs and premades on always mixed on both sides; If you're on the Davion/Kurita border you'll play with and against every Davion/Kurita unit dropping there while attacking, defending and counter-attacking.

It cuts queues in half, dramatically compressing population too. It's a must-have. Probably the single most useful and impactful change we could want. Without that even new content wouldn't fix population because the gameplay would still essentially drive premade teams grinding pugs - it'd just be a race to who grinds the other pugs the fastest to secure their win, then flipping to defense to see if you can roll it back before the bell.

Queue fix is first and foremost. That, Alliances and Logistics (picking what planet to attack and cutting off connection to capital causes captured worlds to slowly revert and blocks advancing until it's re-opened) along with short-term and long-term objectives fixes a ton of core drama with FW. It also uses existing mechanics in FW.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Once again it's another case of the faction players thinking they know better than everyone else. Isn't that the complaint about PGI?.

They want solos to service them. Well how has that worked out so far?

So done with the clown dance as they are just as corrupt as any other. Big can of fail.

[MischiefSC]

Mudhutwarrior, on 28 July 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

Once again it's another case of the faction players thinking they know better than everyone else. Isn't that the complaint about PGI?.

They want solos to service them. Well how has that worked out so far?

So done with the clown dance as they are just as corrupt as any other. Big can of fail.

Okay, so you didn't read any of it or pay attention to any of it? Where did you get 'solos service them' out of any of it?

Please identify for me, precisely, what of the suggested changes would do that?

[meteorol]

Johnny Z, on 28 July 2016 - 01:01 AM, said:

No offense. But see this is a reply that would have been relevant before phase 1 was out and players could use their heads a bit and figure out where the game is going. There are like 1000 of these replies. Really they should tell players whats up so these guys don't look silly.

I feel like going into a detailed description because they havnt bothered telling players. Phase 1 was like 2 years ago......

I really don't understand what you are trying to say here. I literally read it 5 times and don't get it. Maybe you should rephrase whatever you are trying to say.

That aside, Phase 1 was like 2 years ago, and PGI didn't fix the core issue for two whole years: CWs core gameplay is bad thanks to dogsh*t maps. There is really nothing else that PGI can do, fix the maps or scrap CW alltogether. They need to be redone entirely.

There is no way of fixing CW otherwise. Non. The core gameplay is bad, and the main reason for that are the maps. You will never get enough people to play CW when gameplay is bad. That's the whole reason why CW fell flat on its face in first place. It's not about lacking immersion, lack of resources, lack of lore, lack of RP, lack of whatever. Huge parts of this playerbase doesn't give a rats a** about all of that. They simply don't play CW because it's bad.

Johnny Z, on 28 July 2016 - 12:52 AM, said:

The invasion maps being used are half done. They are missing the ECM towers and lots of stuff. Really.

Doesn't matter if they are missing the ECM towers and "lots of stuff" (source). The very basic layout of all CW maps is critically flawed. They are terrible. They could add 1 gazillion ECM towers and whatnot, it wouldn't change a damn thing. The layout of all maps has do be redone, from scratch. And they didn't do jack sh*t to adress this for two years now. Nothing.

AnTi90d, on 28 July 2016 - 12:58 AM, said:

Thinking that the removal of tactical information used to coordinate with your team has no effect on a team's performance, especially if that team has never or doesn't often work together is delusional, at best, IMO.

And that's the whole issue. The overwhelming amount of PUGs didn't use the old map to coordinate with their team, either. That's all i'm saying. The impact, if there was any, was negligible at best. My CWs W/L ratio even got better after the changed map, while 100% pugging.

CW maps are so incredibly limited from a tactical standpoint that you don't need a whole lot of coordination via the map. Lining up properly is something that can be done without looking at the map much if you know the map, know the chokepoints and got a minimum of situational awareness. This is the area where most Pugs fail before even looking at the map. When getting lucky with a team with little potatoes, i do see good firing lines being build without a single word spoken.

Good PUG teams coordinate just fine even with the new map, i do see it on a regular basis. Playing with bad pugs has always been a caotic mess, and while the new map maybe made this a little bit worse, it surely isn't responsible for them being unable to set up a firing line in the right place. They have been unable to do so before, even with a dropcaller trying to get them to do it.

Deathlike claimed "If PUGs knew where to line up properly (know where the chokepoints are, etc etc.), they wouldn't be rolled the way they do.".

And that is true. The new map maybe makes it harder to line up in a very specific order, carefully controlled by a dropcaller that can see in which direction everyone is facing. But that doesn't make them lose games. They lose because they don't even know where to line up in first place.

Where a single mech is facing or if someone stand too far to the left or right don't lose those PUG matches in the grand scheme of things. The vast, overwhelming majority of PUG matches is lost or won before it even comes down to those small nuances. They are losing thanks to issues that are affecting the matches outcome before things like "the dropcaller can't see where a specific mech is facing to" even come to play.

Edited by meteorol, 28 July 2016 - 02:35 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 02:19 AM, said:

Okay, so you didn't read any of it or pay attention to any of it? Where did you get 'solos service them' out of any of it?

Please identify for me, precisely, what of the suggested changes would do that?

I read it. You just can't see the forest for the trees. All your assumptions are you will have pugs to bolster the ranks in FW.
Thing is FW has never been popular as solo que has. Now you can make any of a hundred excuses why that is so but it boils down to many just don't want to be bothered with any of that. They want to build and drive mechs and fight.

Your suffering due to dwindling numbers so the logical conclusion is to increase them. Focusing on FW like it will solve the problem will only solve it for faction players and only for a short while then the cycle will start again.

Faction players will whine and Pgi will try and appease them with Unicorns and councils and round tables that only factions control and participate in.

Until you are ready to understand the base is solo and they need to be fed first you will continue in this self defeating prophecy.

Its great to have a circle of officers with brilliant command but if you let your army slowly dwindle form lack of care you will have nothing in the end.

I just don't understand how so many supposedly intelligent people can be so damn dense.

[2fast2stompy]

Mudhutwarrior, on 28 July 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:

...

lolwat

[Mudhutwarrior]

2fast2stompy, on 28 July 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

lolwat

Pointless to try and educate you from you response but here goes. Maybe you will learn something. Probably not.

[Satan n stuff]

Mudhutwarrior, on 28 July 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

Pointless to try and educate you from you response but here goes. Maybe you will learn something. Probably not.

If there's anything to learn here it's that the opinion of someone who can't stop complaining but also can't stop himself from playing is irrelevant. PGI already owns you so there's no reason for them to pay attention to your endless river of salt.

[Jables McBarty]

Dago Red, on 27 July 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'm saying this as a person in a unit so bias I know but how would you submit that they find leading voices among a group of the population that by it's very nature has none? Short of just grabbing people at random and hoping they're not raving madmen I'm not sure what method one would even use.

You make a good point--that the roundtable format is inherently biased towards units because they have clear leadership and can select representatives to speak for them.

If you want solo/pug voices, start with a forum discussion that PGI can guarantee will be read and interacted with. Bombadil is doing a good job of reading and interacting on the main page, but the premise wasn't to "get the pulse of the solos" but to "ramp up for the roundtable."

With a mix of discussion and polls they could get a good idea of what solos want. They could run a quick Excel macro to just filter out anybody who is part of a large unit from dominating the discussion--though I don't even think that's necessary. Make it clear that PGI will listen and engage, and enough solos/pugs will show up to counterbalance the big units.

Deathlike, on 27 July 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

The only idea I could come up with is trying to add a button to insert into faction chat for those needing to quickly connect to TS through the built-in TS interface in the MWO client - if just to hear drop calls and stuff. That would be a massive improvement over that 1 minute rush-to-adjust the dropdecks sequence.

Wait, what, there's a TS interface in MWO? You aren't talking about MWO's VOIP, right?

MischiefSC, on 27 July 2016 - 08:52 PM, said:

They would work like trials. No modules, cant spend XP on them, can't modify them. Why make an "alt army"? It's an insane hassle. You've got a period of trial matches where you get no rewards, you'd need 4 unit trials per person (the idea is that they'd be very expensive) and it would be easier to just change career from merc to freelancer then join the merc unit in question. A few million recruitment cost and you've got your full mastered decks.

Only real value would be helping new players get into FW and it would be a big expense.

This doesn't solve the larger problems that contribute to low population. Sure, it might help a few new unit members get into it, but I doubt it will have a significant impact. (EDIT for clarification: I doubt it will have a significant impact even on the target population--new unit members--for the reason enumerated below)

I'm not in a large unit, but my honest guess--from personal experience learning in QP and FP--is that dropping with experienced, confident, and vocal teammates is far more effective at generating mastery and interest in FP than dropping with "the right" deck. Only one Trial 'mech currently has LRMs anyway--the Treb--and all the rest are pulse laser metabuilds.

Deathlike, on 27 July 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

I could give you a list of a few things covered, based on memory.

Thanks! I'll add my solo/pug/small unit reactions. Not for Deathlike's benefit, but to contribute to the discussion.

Quote

There was a small segment in figuring out how to restrict new players from getting into FW immediately.. the need to handhold them so they don't get a terribly bad experience for the first time (and it's not easy). References to a FW Tutorial was made (gee, where have I heard this before...).

Needed.

Quote

There was a small discussion about the Long Tom (mostly in favor of removing it, and replacing it with something worth reaching for).

Probably needed. (EDIT: I'd say just reduce it to a very maneagable amount of damage, then move on to other things. Would I like to see it replaced? Yes. But there are so many options and voices that it'll end up being a waste of PGI's time)

Quote

There was a side discussion about dropship spawn points - the idea that you can position the dropship optimally away from the enemy, especially in a camping situation.. which was semi-allievated in Phase 2, but still not an option. I don't even understand why there aren't selectable dropship spawns really.

My guess is that PGI can't do moveable spawnpoints. This comes up often in map feedback threads. They are set in the code for each map/mode combo.

End camping by making dropships super OP. Or have a LT fire on dropzones whenever there are enemies there. Solved. On to developing more/better maps/modes.

Quote

There was a specific discussion about Scouting mode - the win condition for those going away with Intel. The problem was that the scouting team won by default when standing in the dropship zone when time was in and was being contested by the opfor.

Some ideas were to tweak that, that like capping Intel, the mech that arrives @ the dropship must be in that circle for X # of seconds (3 to 5 seconds or whatever) like when you were downloading the Intel. A variation would involve the time spent in that circle relative to how many Intel points were collected (like 1 second per Intel point, though maybe realistically .5 seconds per Intel point). It wouldn't be a instant win for the Scouting team for that instance (for the mechs left to goto the dropship needs to be able to survive those precious seconds after all).

This is a complete red herring.

At a basic level, I'm of the mind to just keep all existing game modes as-is, and ask PGI to develop more varied maps, and if possible, modes. They'll never get everything "perfect" but if people have another toy they like better, they might complain less.

RE Scouting in particular, I think it's great. Do the specific mechanics make sense? No. But here's a mode where being a stealthy, situationally-aware Light pilot can benefit your team. These suggestions sound like they are coming from Crow and Griffen pilots who are pissed that they can't hit the Locust or Jenner who sprnts in at the very end. I've been on both sides of the equation. It sucks when you lose--again, on both sides. But take the premise or leave it.

Sort of like FP in general. Invasion mostly sucks. So I leave it. No amount of lore or fluff or overworld logistics/mechanics will change that. Add in other modes that suck less to me and I'm engaged. Or add new Invasion maps that are bigger, or more open, and thereby, dilute the ****** chokepoint maps (so only one in two is a ****** chokepont map) and I'm engaged.

Sort of like with QP. I hate Domination. I hate HPG Manifold. But I'll tolerate them so long as there is a significant chance that I'll get to play Polar Highlands or Conquest.

Quote

That's a few things I recall anyways (had a convo with a friend about the event, so I'm referring to the limited log that I have on it).

Again, thanks for the synopsis.

Edited by Jables McBarty, 28 July 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[Mystere]

AnTi90d, on 27 July 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

This times a thousand.

Don't reach for the stars; reach for what is within your grasp.

90% of this stream is impractical dreaming.

As I mentioned in another thread, what is PGI's vision for CW? Without knowing that, everything suggested might just end up as wasted saliva.

[Mystere]

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Has there even been a single workable idea to bring large numbers of players back into CW?

Go for broke. Integrate solo QP into CW.

[Sjorpha]

I did a thread with a possible vision for FW endgame and win condition a while back, bumping that for this occasion: http://mwomercs.com/...94#entry5112394

[SilentWolff]

Why either bother trying anymore. PGI doesn't listen, they have been on the same pathetic course of, they know best since closed beta. They also just don't seem to have the resources to accomplish what they need to, to make this game as great as it should be.