84 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 26 July 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Entirely irrelevant when your dependent on PGI's coding capabilities. But i guess another consumable is exactly what we need.

I guess you've run out of valid arguments then. LOL!

[Wintersdark]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 26 July 2016 - 07:57 AM, said:

It would actually be an improvement. If that laser can't go x meters further than it's optimum range there is less suppression which makes it easier to close distance, as you trade less armor.

That's silly. You have to close CLOSER, so you trade the same amount of armor, but worse, you're only able to engage if you CAN get closer, whereas in the current model (for example) an AC20 brawler can still engage at 300m just fine.

Hard range caps hurt brawlers way more than they hurt long range builds.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Mystere, on 26 July 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

I guess you've run out of valid arguments then. LOL!

No..it is a valid argument. Have you not paid any attention to some of the things they have coded, or been unable to fix in how many years? Zoom? Ghost heat ( which still appears to not be able to count cause CUAC 10's...)
And you want them to code smoke, that's also hot and dense enough to not be see through and not absolutely crush game performance......

Wintersdark, on 26 July 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

That's silly. You have to close CLOSER, so you trade the same amount of armor, but worse, you're only able to engage if you CAN get closer, whereas in the current model (for example) an AC20 brawler can still engage at 300m just fine.

Hard range caps hurt brawlers way more than they hurt long range builds.

Some would be disadvantaged yes, others would benefit. See SRM's for example, AC 10's would benefit as the AC20 no longer encroaches into it's range bracket.

Edited by Oderint dum Metuant, 26 July 2016 - 10:04 AM.

[Mystere]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 26 July 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

No..it is a valid argument. Have you not paid any attention to some of the things they have coded, or been unable to fix in how many years?

The glaring flaw in your argument is that it can also be used to call for the immediate shutdown of the servers and cessation of all further development.

[Wintersdark]

Darian DelFord, on 26 July 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Well for one it would slow down all this darn long range peek a boo the game has turned into. On most maps it has literally turned into... find a rock and Laser Vomit at 600+ for the first 5 to 7 minutes of the match until there is an advantage then push.

It would not make the short ranged weapons worse.

[snip]

My point exactly.... I sit here and constantly see the assaults built for brawling just get annihilated before they can get within range... due to the fall off boated weapons just stripping them.

How do you figure it won't make short ranged weapons worse? An AC20 has an effective range of 270m. If that was a hard cap, a brawler running, say, Medium Lasers and an AC20 would have to be within 270m to do any damage at all. If they're unable to get that close, they'd be utterly helpless, and faster mechs able to maintain 271+m could dance around them safely. This is a critical point: It's easier to maintain distance the closer you are. It's way, way easier to stay 271+m away from an enemy mech than it is to be 401+m away, for example.

Then the poor small lasers, they'd become literally useless in many cases.

Seriously, sir, I understand that you dislike long range poke fests, but you're not really thinking this through. Hard range caps would bring poke fests a bit closer, but that doesn't hurt long range builds... But in limiting the short range weapons too, it REALLY hurts them.

Particularly in Quickplay (which is well over 90% of MWO gameplay), there are few maps that can even support 600+m engagement ranges at all. Most "long range" combat is in the 400-600m range, and that puts you very close to short range brawling - you're spending very little armor to get into usable range for brawling weaponry.

Including Polar Highlands, if you're being shot on quickplay maps at 600 or more meters, it's because you piloted poorly (or the guy shooting you is charging in the open and should die instantly) - all of them provide multiple routes to 400-600 in complete safety.

[Wintersdark]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 26 July 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

Some would be disadvantaged yes, others would benefit. See SRM's for example, AC 10's would benefit as the AC20 no longer encroaches into it's range bracket.

The AC10 would be equally impacted. It's able to do reasonable damage out to ~600m right now, this would pull it down to 450m. Currently, the AC10 is a great weapon for midrange poke fights (it'll never be a good brawling weapon, as the AC20 is grossly superior for a tiny increase in tonnage) as the AC20 loses too much damage and carries too little ammo to remotely compete. *shrugs* Equally impacted.

The SRM argument is pretty valid, as they don't have falloff damage, but breaking every other brawling weapon to bring "pairity" or SRM ranges is a fools errand.

Seriously, guys, removing falloff damage and hard capping range will ravage brawlers, but impact ranged builds way less.


And while (to my knowledge) nobody has accused me of trying to maintain some "long range poke meta" or something of the sort, that's definitely not the case. I vastly prefer brawlers myself - my argument here IS entirely self serving, because I don't want to see brawlers utterly mangled.

[Wintersdark]

Mystere, on 26 July 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

If the problem is the PeekabooWarriorOnline game we have now, then I think it's time for long-lasting smoke screens.

Lasers that suddenly do 0 damage at X+10^-6 meters (where X is max effective range) just does not sit well with me.

And ballistics, too. Gods above, the notion that a ~50kg shell traveling at, what, 2340km/h goes from doing crushing damage at 270m to 0 damage at, as you put it, 270+10^-6 meters is just silly.

[Darian DelFord]

People keep saying it would be a horrible idea... it would destroy game play........

Yet we had it and at the time the player base was up in arms when they increased the damage ranges.....

Like I said I just am trying to remember why it was changed....

Honestly the battles were much better back then... and that is one of the reasons why.

[AztecD]

in all case make the drop-off range more steep, ac20 -> 270 = 20 ac20 ->300 = 10 Ac20-> 350 = 0

[Darian DelFord]

I think this is one of the reason's the laser vomit builds are so prominent.

With projectiles you have 1 shot and have to aim accordingly. However with lasers you have hit scan so at least some of your damage will register. I think this is why some in this thread are so against it.... It does change the laser builds a tad.

But as I stated in my original post... I just can't remember why is all..... thats all I really want to know.

[Mystere]

Darian DelFord, on 26 July 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

But as I stated in my original post... I just can't remember why is all..... thats all I really want to know.

Are you sure you are remembering correctly? I myself do not. I only remember we used to have 3X damage falloff.

Heck, for all we know, the reason it was changed (if indeed we did not have damage falloff before) is that it did look silly as a few here have said.

[Pjwned]

Darian DelFord, on 26 July 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

The fall off came at the end of closed beta ish.... really don't remember when they did it... but I do remember an upheaval over it.... just can't remember why they did it.... which is the entire point of this thread.... I just can't remember why.

I don't see any particularly good reason to not take your word for it, so okay.

Quote

In regards to game play being better.... yes it was...... you did not have your CT blown off at 600+ meters just because you were running between two rocks and someone got a lucky shot off.

The current state of convergence has a lot more to do with that than the current state of weapon ranges though.

Quote

in regards to it working the way it did then in today's environment I dunno...... but it could actually bring a few aspects back to the game.... like true brawling... which we really do not have until there is a numbers advantage.

It still creates huge problems though and it also makes brawling a pain in the *** as well, unless you literally only use SRMs I guess in which case there wouldn't be any difference. The only "problem" this really addresses is getting poked to death from range while trying to close into brawling distance, but there are so many other factors to consider when arguing about something like that, and that includes player skill, so that's its own separate discussion if you ask me.

Edited by Pjwned, 26 July 2016 - 11:10 AM.

[Pjwned]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 26 July 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

The problems you speak of, were never spoke of in past games where this occurred. You can't have everything. Some things just don't work well together. Ranged falloff damage while adding realism and sense it causes issues with the balance of gameplay (which is even more pronounced when the map design is terrible)

I honestly just don't believe you there, and even if I did that's still not a convincing argument for this game.

[Darian DelFord]

Mystere, on 26 July 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

Are you sure you are remembering correctly? I myself do not. I only remember we used to have 3X damage falloff.

Heck, for all we know, the reason it was changed (if indeed we did not have damage falloff before) is that it did look silly as a few here have said.

Yeah I know it was in before we put in XL engines.... I remember running round in my Standard 6 SL (6 ML's at the time was to hot) Jenner literally having to be on the assault mechs arse (Leg Humpers Term came from this age) to kill them after 150 no damage was done. The 3x fall off I thought was for projectiles namely cannons

Like I said... I just can't remember why it was taken out is all.....

Edited by Darian DelFord, 26 July 2016 - 11:13 AM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I've been playing since September of 2012. The hard cap wasn't in when I started playing. It was 3x range on ballistics and 2x on lasers.

I also remember the term leghumper not being used until collisions were yanked because then the lights could actually run up to you and not fall over.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

I remember them having a reason but I can not remember what it was.

Weapons in Battletech have a range band that extends past long range called "extreme" where a weapon can still hit but deals reduced damage.

Quote

Well, if we had default max range as a rule, then long range missiles would finally be "long" ranged.

They end up being outranged by ER PPC, Gauss and AC/2 and nearly matched by UAC/5, ERLL, etc. Instead of less damage, long range missiles are just really really hard to hit with outside 600m or so.

[AztecD]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 26 July 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

I've been playing since September of 2012. The hard cap wasn't in when I started playing. It was 3x range on ballistics and 2x on lasers.

I also remember the term leghumper not being used until collisions were yanked because then the lights could actually run up to you and not fall over.

i remember the 3x on ballistics, it was beautiful. hitting mechs at 2km+ with my ac2 boat was cool

but people cried and PGI nerfed, same story different day

[Wintersdark]

Darian DelFord, on 26 July 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

People keep saying it would be a horrible idea... it would destroy game play........

Yet we had it and at the time the player base was up in arms when they increased the damage ranges.....

Like I said I just am trying to remember why it was changed....

Honestly the battles were much better back then... and that is one of the reasons why.

When? That never happened in my experience in MWO - I started at the very start of Open Beta, back in November of 2012. Ranges are shorter now than they were then - 2xOptimal or even less, in the case of Clan Lasers, instead of 2x Optimal for lasers and 3x Optimal for ballistics?

Edited by Wintersdark, 26 July 2016 - 12:33 PM.

[Mystere]

Darian DelFord, on 26 July 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yeah I know it was in before we put in XL engines.... I remember running round in my Standard 6 SL (6 ML's at the time was to hot) Jenner literally having to be on the assault mechs arse (Leg Humpers Term came from this age) to kill them after 150 no damage was done. The 3x fall off I thought was for projectiles namely cannons

Like I said... I just can't remember why it was taken out is all.....

Is it possible it was during the "Friends & Family" testing or the short "invitation-only" period prior to allowing the Founders into closed beta?

Edited by Mystere, 26 July 2016 - 12:41 PM.

[Jables McBarty]

oneda, on 26 July 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

How can even a single player dislike sniping. The art of long range trading while not getting hit is so much fun. I love sniper wars. My best builds and loadouts and mechs are optimized to be lethal snipers. All the time ppl complain about sniping haha. Damn. Its the best part about mwo. Brawling is easy. Being a good sniper requires real skills.

Darian DelFord, on 26 July 2016 - 05:08 AM, said:

Attempt to play a knife fighting light. In todays MWO..... it is'nt easy.

Just curious though as to why they changed it... can't remember.

Lol, Darian, such restraint!