137 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Khalcruth, on 28 July 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Um...because it's the roundtable this evening, and the people actually sitting at that roundtable, that actually matters?

Assuming this Sader325 guy is to be believed, the process that picked those people is completely illegitimate. Therefore the roundtable itself is completely illegitimate. It does not and cannot speak for the community.

Legitimate? This isn't a player Congress. It's not collecting consensus from the players. It's giving suggestions to PGI from unit leaders, which is actually what they asked for.

I'd love for it to be at least half loyalists but apparently 1 was enough. However you want a voice you have to go speak up. It's that simple.

What they're talking about tonight is what everyone discussed last night. You and everyone else had the opportunity to go and speak during that 4 hour stretch.

It isn't meant to represent the community though. Just some people who won't start off saying "Eff you Russ, PGI sucks!" who can put some suggestions forward and start a dialog on what we can fix in FW.

[Jarl Dane]

Asaru, on 28 July 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

sengrim a good unit but another merc,

Yeah, technically in-game we are "mercs with the FRR", but we've never been anything but FRR. We actually lose money because of we aren't real mercs and stick with the FRR regardless of penalties. I don't really think it is fair, or honest, to call us mercs.

The Isengrim have been prominent members of the FRR community for longer than nearly all the remaining active FRR units. Furthermore we also run/own/maintain the FRR hub. Once more, seems like pinning us as "mercs" has more to do with fitting your own narrative than actually supporting facts. Also, Pando Box of the 1st Hussars of the FRR was also present.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 28 July 2016 - 02:17 PM.

[Agent1190]

Stormbringer13, on 28 July 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

as far as the Logistics go. You mentioned if FRR could cut off the JF push, those worlds cut off would eventually revert back to prior ownership if the supply line isn't re-established.

What would happen to the dozens of those Steiner worlds currently cut off by the JF push? I honestly want FRR to attack Steiner just to clean that mess up.

To respond to that...

Attackers have to worry about logistics, and it would be interesting if there was a way to negate a push by cutting the body from the head. You could assume the Steiner Planets cut off from the main body would have resources at their disposal. The attacking Clan (JF) would be receiving troops and supplies from secured bases farther back from the front lines. By dispruting their supply lines, it would negate a push forward until the breach was repaired.

But, they could implement siege warfare, where cutting off a chunk of territory would make it flip to new owners...

Another way they could try this is with special garrison worlds that would be established as territory was assigned (for IS) or captured (for Clans). Without a garrison world, the territory around it could revert to the owner of the local garrison after consecutive attack phases with no change in ownership (attacker win, attackers then successfully defend). This would make it extremely important to take and hold a garrison world. We already have special "capital planets" on the map, maybe increase these (1 per 7-9 words perhaps) and call them garrisons.

Edited by Agent1190, 28 July 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[Asaru]

Mech The Dane, on 28 July 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

Yeah, technically in-game we are "mercs with the FRR", but we've never been anything but FRR. We actually lose money because of we aren't real mercs and stick with the FRR regardless of penalties. I don't really think it is fair, or honest, to call us mercs.

The Isengrim have been prominent members of the FRR community for longer than nearly all the remaining active FRR units. Furthermore we also run/own/maintain the FRR hub. Once more, seems like pinning us as "mercs" has more to do with fitting your own narrative than actually supporting facts. Also, Pando Box of the 1st Hussars of the FRR was also present.

I am not really sure how are an "arm" of -MS-. Our agenda is the FRR.

That arm part was directed at CI not Isengrim. I agree that your unit is almost a loyalist in all but contract but if I'm doing a merc loyalist head count then you still count on the merc side.

Edited by Asaru, 28 July 2016 - 02:11 PM.

[Jarl Dane]

Asaru, on 28 July 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

That arm part was directed at CI not Isengrim. I agree that your unit is almost a loyalist in all but contract but if I'm doing a merc loyalist head count then you still count on the merc side.

Ah, my mistake about the CI thing.

[MischiefSC]

Asaru, on 28 July 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

Come on Mischief be a little understanding of his point of view. This was put together short noticed and was not well advertised. Any player that is not plugged into community politics might have no idea this was happening or how the people talking to PGI tonight got picked.

Just because they didn't make it to MS's TS3 doesn't mean they don't care or want to be involved. This idea that there this elite group of MWO players that have a better understanding of the game or how to make it better is just wrong. That kind of attitude along with the opaque way this was put together is going to lead to the masses feeling left out and disenfranchised by the process.

What's crazy is that apparently Antonius Rex of all people (who, I have on good authority, is actually Blueduck and a member of the Illuminati but that's another discussion) tried to get it rescheduled to get more time and was flat out told no.

I get the concern, I do. However I was also in the twitch chat. Tons of people who wanted someone else to go argue their ideas for them but didn't want to step up. They grabbed the people who came forward, gave voice to those who came to speak and put a passable group together in the couple of days they were given.

Not ideal but in the situation... meh. Not terrible. I'd have liked 3 more loyalists in there and at least 1 solo, but who?

[AnTi90d]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Anyone could go in to TS. Anyone could speak.

This is a blatant lie.

AnTi90d, on 28 July 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

I was there for the whole three hours.

Several people had something to say in chat. No one cared.

No one in the meeting represented solo loyalists. No one in the meeting represented freelancers. None of those people were asked to join.

• SoaqMWO : if you are a unit leader or a unit rep and want to have your voice heard. come to the MS TS now and join in.
  
• SoaqMWO : !ts
  
• sadpandas.failnoob.com:8344 - MercStar TS - Come Join

They directly said in chat that they only wanted unit representatives.. which is basically, "Sit down and shut up while the important people are talking because we don't give a **** about you or your opinions."

We weren't welcome in their TS and chat was ignored.

The same will happen in less than three hours.

"Important people" or GTFO.

[Danjo San]

Agent1190, on 28 July 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

I'm not i this round table, and didn't attend the planning session, so I am OK with this.

I've always maintained that Faction Play is end game content and should be played by groups and only groups. Find a unit, or create your own and hook up with another unit to drop as a TEAM. If you only drop solo you are missing a HUGE part of FW. Faction play isn't Golf or Tennis, it's Football (American or otherwise).

I can be part of a unit and still drop solo ... does that make me less of a Teamplayer?
And yes it's Football. Football has limited Teamrosters. so that the richest teams can't hog all good players and leave the rest with the scrubs. having limitied rosters therefore creates a factor that favours a fair distribution no?
52 Players are the max for an american football team ... max unit size in mwo is ... yeah none.

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

What they're talking about tonight is what everyone discussed last night. You and everyone else had the opportunity to go and speak during that 4 hour stretch.

Not if you live in a different timezone and have a job you need to attend

[Jarl Dane]

Asaru, on 28 July 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

I agree that your unit is almost a loyalist in all but contract but if I'm doing a merc loyalist head count then you still count on the merc side.

Look at the icon next to my name! NOW AMEND YOUR HEAD COUNT.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 28 July 2016 - 02:23 PM.

[Asaru]

Mech The Dane, on 28 July 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

Look at the icon next to my name! NOW AMEND YOUR HEAD COUNT.

Welcome to the team. We have cookies, pie, and punch. I even have candy and pokemon if your willing to step into our van.

[MischiefSC]

Danjo San, on 28 July 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

I can be part of a unit and still drop solo ... does that make me less of a Teamplayer?
And yes it's Football. Football has limited Teamrosters. so that the richest teams can't hog all good players and leave the rest with the scrubs. having limitied rosters therefore creates a factor that favours a fair distribution no?
52 Players are the max for an american football team ... max unit size in mwo is ... yeah none.



Not if you live in a different timezone and have a job you need to attend

Timezones were a big issue. I actually took 2 hours off work in the middle of my work day to attend part of it and speak. I know not everyone has the luxury.

However there was no real fix for that in the time given. As I said, I'd rather have had more loyalists, a solo and someone from Euro and Oceanic there but this is the time we had.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

a solo

There was no solo present? not even one?

[Danjo San]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

Timezones were a big issue. I actually took 2 hours off work in the middle of my work day to attend part of it and speak. I know not everyone has the luxury.

However there was no real fix for that in the time given. As I said, I'd rather have had more loyalists, a solo and someone from Euro and Oceanic there but this is the time we had.

No absolutely, there is no fix for that... I was not complaining bout it either, just wanted to point out that even if someone wanted to speak up and be there he might not be able to do so because of real life obligations.
Anyway you absolutely need to set a time and someone will inevitably be left behind, thats just the nature of the globe and not sharing the same time... Man, wouldn't it be great if the world was flat and we only had one timezone, lol

[JaxRiot]

I wasn't there because i had to work and cant be there tonight either.

But from what I understand it was hosted by MS and they didn't invite Solo reps. It was for Unit Leaders and Unit Reps only.

But again I wasnt there so I didnt see it

[AnTi90d]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 28 July 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

There was no solo present? not even one?

Zero for last night's event, zero for tonight's event.

Tonight, Bombadil said they'd have some form of open mike period.. at the end of the event, once everything has already been decided.

They literally give zero ***** about the opinions of people not in their inner circle and just tacked that on at the end to try and placate the masses.

I understand that 200+ people can't be in one TS channel, shouting over eachother.. but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. They're directing the course of all of our futures and we have no say in anything.

No one likes it when PGI does this, but mirrors are in short supply among this community.

Edited by AnTi90d, 28 July 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 28 July 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

There was no solo present? not even one?

Not that I saw in the TS. If there was I didn't notice. Admittedly several of us there largely pug FW. There were some in the twitch chat but none came to the TS that I noticed.

Then again most solo only players are not in a unit for a reason - not wanting to have the group dynamic. I can see that tying to little impetus to join a group on TS for a discussion.

Also a soloist can not, by definition, really be representative. Most of the ideas put forward though are there to try and mitigate the pugging experience in some way. Make it easier to group up, easier to coordinate with your faction, eliminate the worst part which is attaxk/defend queues effectively feeding pugs to units. Also ideas to make it easier for units to onboard and help new players get into FW. Also that trials are geared toward FW, scouting and invasion both. Quit doing stuff like the LRM treb.

The agenda was pretty pug friendly. It was discussed that you need to make FW fun to play even as a pug so there's pugs to bring in to groups. Yes, overall FW is focused on unit end game content but it needs to still be fun for newish and pug players.

[Kin3ticX]

AnTi90d, on 28 July 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

I do appreciate that people in the community made an effort to brainstorm ideas.

However, by not inviting so much as a single solo loyalist or freelancer.. you, in effect, did exactly what people often curse PGI for doing: making decisions for the community without inviting input from anyone outside of your private circle. The 120+ people in chat (of whom maybe fifteen attempted to participate) were totally ignored.

A large number of the ideas battered about only benefit units and factions with high populations.

Hell, for what seemed like a half of an hour, ideas were floated around to "encourage unit participation.." which, in effect, screws everyone else over. It's the equivalent of congress going into session and voting for pay raises for themselves while the economy is tanking. Structuring your debate in this manner is how we got to the state of the game wherein only large units get to earn MC in FP and mercs get their brand new skill tree while loyalists get diddly squat.

to be honest, 90% of what they talked about was not feasible but its not hurting anything either.

people are acting like this is phase 4 when its really phase 3.1 (oops edition)

I think the best way with no hope for a matchmaker to help solos is some form of a handicap system. The most obvious route is probably tonnage.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 28 July 2016 - 02:59 PM.

[Danjo San]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

Not that I saw in the TS. If there was I didn't notice. Admittedly several of us there largely pug FW. There were some in the twitch chat but none came to the TS that I noticed.

Then again most solo only players are not in a unit for a reason - not wanting to have the group dynamic. I can see that tying to little impetus to join a group on TS for a discussion.

Also a soloist can not, by definition, really be representative. Most of the ideas put forward though are there to try and mitigate the pugging experience in some way. Make it easier to group up, easier to coordinate with your faction, eliminate the worst part which is attaxk/defend queues effectively feeding pugs to units. Also ideas to make it easier for units to onboard and help new players get into FW. Also that trials are geared toward FW, scouting and invasion both. Quit doing stuff like the LRM treb.

The agenda was pretty pug friendly. It was discussed that you need to make FW fun to play even as a pug so there's pugs to bring in to groups. Yes, overall FW is focused on unit end game content but it needs to still be fun for newish and pug players.

Solo Players are either Solo because they have had negative experiences with groups, or they haven't found the right group for them yet, reasons may range from too competitive to to casual, can't meet training requirements, wants to play for a certain faction, but no loyalist group around meets the "standards" the solo Player has...
It is of course easy to assume that the Solo Players play Solo, because they are antisocial. That may be true in some cases.
I know this player who used to hop from teamspeak to teamspeak, he dropped with a lot of different groups, different units, it took him several months to "settle down". And even now flying colors, he still hops around.
Solo Players can be great Teamplayers ... just sayin

[MischiefSC]

AnTi90d, on 28 July 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Zero for last night's event, zero for tonight's event.

Tonight, Bombadil said they'd have some form of open mike period.. at the end of the event, once everything has already been decided.

They literally give zero ***** about the opinions of people not in their inner circle and just tacked that on at the end to try and placate the masses.

I understand that 200+ people can't be in one TS channel, shouting over eachother.. but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. They're directing the course of all of our futures and we have no say in anything.

No one likes it when PGI does this, but mirrors are in short supply among this community.

I get your concern, I do. However the difference between pugging 100% and 75-80% like some of us do is pretty minimal. There were a few people there from sub-12 member units. The difference between their game experience and a dedicated solo player is pretty minimal.

So other than inviting everyone how do you pick one person for a player segment who's only unifying trait is NOT belonging to a group?

I admit I was concerned at first. It's why I took time off work to go get my voice in. As I said, most my playtime in FW is pugging so I wanted to see improvement there.

However the ideas put forward were rock solid. None of it was screw the pugs, pay units more stuff. There was plenty to offer to loyalists, long term and short term stuff for pug and solo play.

So what idea to improve pug play do you have to put forward that wasn't covered? End of the day, nobody really cares about your tag, just the value of the idea and for the roundtable your ability to present it directly to Russ et al in a way that will be productive.

[AnTi90d]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

Not that I saw in the TS. If there was I didn't notice. Admittedly several of us there largely pug FW. There were some in the twitch chat but none came to the TS that I noticed.

None were invited and they stated in chat "unit leaders and unit reps" were the only ones welcome to join them in TS.

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

Then again most solo only players are not in a unit for a reason - not wanting to have the group dynamic. I can see that tying to little impetus to join a group on TS for a discussion.

..or maybe some people's entire faction is so dead that practically zero units exist.

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

ideas to make it easier for units to onboard and help new players get into FW. Also that trials are geared toward FW, scouting and invasion both. Quit doing stuff like the LRM treb.

Their solution was either:

• to have units set up their own unit-only trial mechs.

That only benefits the units. You have to be invited to use it. If your faction has zero viable units it does jack ****.

• or to have faction specific trial mechs..

which is a system that would be easily abused by alt accounts.. and also too complex for PGI to roll it out anytime soon. (Who gets to set the trials up? We don't have faction heads in this game.)

..and then they discussed plans to "encourage unit participation," as they deemed it.. which is good for them and bad for anyone that isn't them.