40 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Alternative Title: No Skittles Left Behind

Let me preface this by saying that this is not perfect. It will not magically solve skill discrepancies, teamwork (or lack thereof), or even the bad design of Invasion mode.

What this post/thread is to address a more core problem... trying to avoid the solo PUG integration issue with FW.


It aims to solve 3 things:

1) Establish a team mentality - working together is inherently better than trying to do everything yourself.

2) Announce/broadcast your team's existence/formation - to improve the use of the LFG (which gets underused/unused.

3) Literally prevent the creation of "skittles" - "Skittles" are essentially solo players that usually answer "a Call to Arms" from different factions/units or are unitless and proceed to get wrecked immediately after. This primarily applies to Clan vs IS matchups (you can't really have "skittles" in IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan matches, but the same concept does affect here).


So, this is how this breaks down... you will still have 3 types of groups or players - for the purposes of this idea.


1) The "Assaulting" Force (6 to 8 mans) - This should be a large group of players (doesn't matter from what unit, though ideally these are launched by bigger units) to start an Invasion or Defense of a planet.

The benefits of this would be a 20% C-bill bonus, plus an additional split pot of $168k C-bills to the unit coffers of each unit involved.

Ideally, this is created by the Mercs or stronger faction units.. as this is solely intended to get the war effort started. You don't want this to be started by pug groups (it's doesn't usually end well anyways).


Note: There should be a consideration for an option for a more comp oriented team to opt in and do a direct fight with an opposing team of the same size. This would provide increased rewards and incentives (and the idea needs to be fleshed out for a longer term purpose) which would better serve that community. 8v8s are the optimal sizes for league matches (12v12 is ineffective for this) so this allows a more direct option (12-man in the QP queues are pretty rare to boot - thus this is where the fundamental idea comes from).


2) The "Support" Force (2 to 5 mans - ideally a Lance or Star), Similar to the Assault force, the unit construction doesn't matter... but this is geared towards the newer or casual players, as creating a large group is not optimal, but wanting others to work together despite not knowing the key unit players or Mercs within the current faction.

The size of the group dicates the bonus involved. For every player in this group, a 5% C-bill bonus is instituted (2-man = 10%, 3-man = 15%) until a 4-man or 5-man is reached (both group sizes with a 25% C-bill bonus). This is to incentivize solo players to group up.

By the nature of this design, this group is not going to be as good as the "Assault Force". However, the goal for this group is to learn from the bigger group and listen to instructions.


What would need to happen here is a set of announcements (similar to Call to Arms, but not as annoying) where the game informs you that an 8-man "Assault Force" is in the queue, and they need 4 more players to fill up. This is how this type of group determines how many they need to expedite the dropping process. This group will also be announced to everyone in terms of the LFG "Forming Support Unit" so that people know where to go.


In terms of the MM in this instance, preferential treatment will goto the Support Force where there are no members of the same unit are in the Assault Force. After at most a 2-min wait (or so), this restriction is lifted in favor or attempting to consolidate the two groups regardless. This way can ensure that everyone can participate and learn on both ends.


3) True "Soloist" - There is no reason to have this type of player, but let me just say this....

If you want to help out the cause, you really need to find a group. You don't have to join a unit, just find players to work with. One of the things that even the new player likes is to see a good unit helping them understand how FW works and when they see group coordination and see people doing their best... very few problems arise. When a player decides to do their own thing, it's just detrimental to the group. So.. it is in this person's best interest to find people to play with.


The only benefit this type of player gets is somewhat preferential treatment as filler (because math) and also "free C-bill consumable use". This means that this player can experiment with ALL of consumables w/o penalty. This is going to be less profitable than the inherent C-Bill bonus in the long run (compared to the other groups in name), but at least provide "an even foot" when it comes to the things you will see/use in faction play.


I know there are problems in it, but this is the best way of doing this with minimal MM intervention, but also allows new players to have a way of experiencing FW w/o the ugly parts to it... and also provides a way for larger units to either recruit or at least make even greater use of the faction hub (needs a button in game to spam it for the built-in TS client in MWO to do something useful).


That's all I can think of. Please flame away I guess. Constructive criticism needed as I'm dry out of brainpower at the moment.

Thanks for reading.

[MischiefSC]

Holy ****. I get the initial objections but it's not mandatory, it's reward driven.

I was talking with the cool kids in KCom last night about their approach to training up CJF pugs. It took them time but they functionally did it anyway and it made CJF a very effective faction.

We can confirm that it works, it's just more work for units. So far KCom has been the only ones with the brass danglies to do it. Inventing other teams to do it will do wonders for FW.

I strongly support this idea.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeah always good discussions had in that KCom channel I must admit, on all MWO aspects.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 29 July 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Holy ****. I get the initial objections but it's not mandatory, it's reward driven.

I was talking with the cool kids in KCom last night about their approach to training up CJF pugs. It took them time but they functionally did it anyway and it made CJF a very effective faction.

We can confirm that it works, it's just more work for units. So far KCom has been the only ones with the brass danglies to do it. Inventing other teams to do it will do wonders for FW.

I strongly support this idea.

Sorry, I missed those convos.

I do have the Jade Falcon TS though. Haven't used it much (I'm sure you can figure out why), but I'm around for discussions... if I'm not playing something else.

I am interested in hearing them, if we ever decide to get serious with FW. It does take a while for a faction to grow (Kurita was pretty strong during Phase 1, but you know how the Phases go).

Edited by Deathlike, 29 July 2016 - 06:03 PM.

[MischiefSC]

They are on the ComStar TS. Good peeps, always worth the time. Switch Steiner, drop with them in FW. They are in the spot they're in for a reason.

[Deathlike]

I'm just going to bump this, but I doubt anyone cares to read this.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 04 August 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

I'm just going to bump this, but I doubt anyone cares to read this.

What's ironic is that it's a doable fix. It's just playing with rewards, essentially. Without this sort of change to the pug/premade dynamic it's going to be an issue forever.

[Pat Kell]

Some of the best reviews we get is when people drop with 8-10 of us and we help show them that it's possible to win in CW. Once they see the possibilities, they keep coming back...well, at least some of them do:)

I think isn't such a bad idea. I am sure someone could punch holes in it but things can always be tweaked and I like the idea of giving new players a chance to gradually and somewhat safely enter the game. Sure, they will lose some but if they feel like they have a chance and get to learn something to boot, it's a great idea.

[Terrastras Rex]

Imagine:

If solo skittles could only join a "DEFEND" queue that put them behind walls + gave them turrets + AI reinforcements.

If grouped units were the only ones who could "ATTACK" ...


Solo skittles would learn the FP ropes, doing their "poke from cover" quickplay style. The walls+turrets+gates would prevent the stomp.

They would quickly learn that coordinated attacking units that work together to push/charge/nascar will always beat them.

They will want to join units to join the attack, having grown tired of defending from behind walls.


Solo skittles need actual gameplay mechanics to prevent the experienced pros from stomping them.

[Deathlike]

Terrastras Rex, on 05 August 2016 - 02:53 AM, said:

Imagine:

If solo skittles could only join a "DEFEND" queue that put them behind walls + gave them turrets + AI reinforcements.

If grouped units were the only ones who could "ATTACK" ...


Solo skittles would learn the FP ropes, doing their "poke from cover" quickplay style. The walls+turrets+gates would prevent the stomp.

They would quickly learn that coordinated attacking units that work together to push/charge/nascar will always beat them.

They will want to join units to join the attack, having grown tired of defending from behind walls.


Solo skittles need actual gameplay mechanics to prevent the experienced pros from stomping them.

I had thought about it, but this won't ever work.

PGI has already given players DropshipJesus and inevitably it doesn't actually stop them from getting stomped - it only delays the inevitable.

The only way a new player gets a shot to survive in FW is dropping with an experienced unit. There's no two ways about it.

What AI teaches you and them is that the AI will do over 50% of the killing for the "skittles" based team... and that's not supposed to be the case. If you can't hold your own and leave it strictly to the AI, you're literally not holding your own weight in FW.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 August 2016 - 06:41 AM.

[SteelMantis]

From my perspective as a pug this is just another thread from non-pugs offering "solutions" that only help groups and hurt people pugging.

All this would really do is increase the payout to teams and increase the wait times for solo players.

If you really want to fix pugging and make FP attractive to more of the player base bring back the solo queue but do it right this time. Anybody who is queueing solo is in the solo queue (and sync dropping needs to be punished as the explot it is). Also due to population issues this will only work after buckets are combined to a single clan vs IS queue for pugs.

[Freeman 52]

@Deathlike, as a solo but not new player I really like your suggestion.

HOWEVER: I would include your suggestion as part of a broader package of improvement to the communication layer of FP. Right now the "community endgame" of MWO has a UI and layers of mechanics that make you feel utterly alone. We need a global chat, as well as a dedicated LFG chat channel instead of the leap of faith button that we have now. It is ridiculous that in most MMOs people can form raid groups on the fly and we can't.

I don't think the ultimate goal should be to get people on units and TS (which I see as an ancillary layer of complication that is strictly outside the game proper), but to make grouping and socializing a more intuitive and rewarding choice, so that ultimately we do get good support groups, to use your term.

If none of this is possible, like @SteelMantis says I would rather have a real solo queue.

[Deathlike]

SteelMantis, on 05 August 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

From my perspective as a pug this is just another thread from non-pugs offering "solutions" that only help groups and hurt people pugging.

All this would really do is increase the payout to teams and increase the wait times for solo players.

If you really want to fix pugging and make FP attractive to more of the player base bring back the solo queue but do it right this time. Anybody who is queueing solo is in the solo queue (and sync dropping needs to be punished as the explot it is). Also due to population issues this will only work after buckets are combined to a single clan vs IS queue for pugs.

I feel like people didn't learn from what happened when Phase 3 came along with the multiple buckets (solos w/o tags and everyone else). While the entire method was entirely flawed.. there's two clear things that happened.

1) Solos created one-man units to join the group queue. There's only two possible reasons one would do this. One would be to be able to play with other groups (for whatever the reason). The other is the actual problem... the wait til the next match. As long as you're trying to fill a a team of 12 players (much easier in the Scouting queue obviously, due to math), it will take "3 times as long" (using basic math) to fill than a 4-player group for Scouting. That's assuming you are considering the commitment to be the same (which they are not).

2) The problems with forming 12-players is not that much different than a premade. Eventually even a premade will break down.. usually by time or whatever reason. For units, you can sub in others waiting their turn to team up. In the case of solos, it's worse in the aspect that you don't really have replacements. Filling up a queue with 12 solo players is much harder to do. In fact... most matches that include solos go off when there's 10 or 11 total players grouped in (in whatever premade combination)... which is where this works out in general. It doesn't work for a solo-only queue.


Even if you wanted a solo-only queue (regardless of tags), how would you actually improve the queuing times? You may have a bigger pool, but you're still have to fill up 12 players regardless and that still takes time. It's always been easier to fill a combination of 10 and 11 mans with solos than any other team composition... and it's not like solos queuing gets better over time. It simply doesn't. The math and your time doesn't support it.

Finding a team to play with (w/o necessarily joining) is usually the way to go, and solves the problem of queue times... which is primarily the core problem with solo queuing.

Freeman 52, on 05 August 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

@Deathlike, as a solo but not new player I really like your suggestion.

HOWEVER: I would include your suggestion as part of a broader package of improvement to the communication layer of FP. Right now the "community endgame" of MWO has a UI and layers of mechanics that make you feel utterly alone. We need a global chat, as well as a dedicated LFG chat channel instead of the leap of faith button that we have now. It is ridiculous that in most MMOs people can form raid groups on the fly and we can't.

I don't think the ultimate goal should be to get people on units and TS (which I see as an ancillary layer of complication that is strictly outside the game proper), but to make grouping and socializing a more intuitive and rewarding choice, so that ultimately we do get good support groups, to use your term.

If none of this is possible, like @SteelMantis says I would rather have a real solo queue.

TS is the only real solution, but for a different reason.

I don't really expect PUGs to talk... you communicate at your own will. The thing is a lot of basic concepts like pushing or even holding a firing line requires complex communication (in other words, you can't really type the damn thing out and get a proper result). Many times in the group queues... the inner-premades within a group don't communicate with each other... leaving for decision making up to individuals... and that leads to a multitude of problems (mostly in the form of failing/losing). You cannot be on the same page if you aren't communicating to another person. It's just doesn't magically work like that.

I don't disagree with a global chat.. but in-game communication is literally contingent on players being on the same page... and rarely that is accomplished by the solos/groups that are not in the same TS. I mean we don't need like drill sargents in every match, but you need people to follow orders to the best of their ability.. so that people don't try to commit too early or too late for things that need adequate/proper timing.

Otherwise, you're only going to get crushed by someone far more organized than you are... even if they may be less skilled - people are a much stronger force for being on the same page.

[Freeman 52]

Deathlike, on 05 August 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

TS is the only real solution, but for a different reason.

I don't really expect PUGs to talk... you communicate at your own will. The thing is a lot of basic concepts like pushing or even holding a firing line requires complex communication (in other words, you can't really type the damn thing out and get a proper result). Many times in the group queues... the inner-premades within a group don't communicate with each other... leaving for decision making up to individuals... and that leads to a multitude of problems (mostly in the form of failing/losing). You cannot be on the same page if you aren't communicating to another person. It's just doesn't magically work like that.

You are absolutely right, of course. But there have to be stepping stones towards TS and the more demanding social aspect of MWO. I think everyone benefits from dropping on TS with a unit - I certainly did! - but the goal should be a comms layer that makes semi-competent pugs more able to organize and work together. But understand that solo does not equal newbie, and that lack of TS does not mean lack of will to communicate.

Understand also that there are players who do not use TS for various reasons: may not care for the chatter or personalities, may not have a good enough connection (trust me on that one), or simply don't want another layer outside the game software proper. I realize we may be talking about different things, though

[Cy Mitchell]

Deathlike, on 05 August 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

I feel like people didn't learn from what happened when Phase 3 came along with the multiple buckets (solos w/o tags and everyone else). While the entire method was entirely flawed..
1) Solos created one-man units to join the group queue. There's only two possible reasons one would do this. One would be to be able to play with other groups (for whatever the reason). The other is the actual problem... the wait til the next match. As long as you're trying to fill a a team of 12 players (much easier in the Scouting queue obviously, due to math), it will take "3 times as long" (using basic math) to fill than a 4-player group for Scouting. That's assuming you are considering the commitment to be the same (which they are not).

I have seen this said many time but I wonder if it is really true. Did a whole bunch of tagless solo players really start one man units when Phase 3 hit? Or were there a lot of solo players who had already created one man units before Phase 3 because they wanted to have there own tag? Then all these players were lumped in with the units instead of the solos when Phase 3 hitI know I saw a lot of unit tags well before Phase 3 that I thought were just one man tags. Quite often the telltale sign was that the unit tag was a variation or abbreviation of their in game name.

I am sure there were some guys that made unit tags to try to take advantage of the Mercenary LP system. That, in itself, is another reason the solo queue failed.

Anyway, I think your idea has merit. With some refinement it could certainly help to ease the new player transition into FP. I did somewhat the same thing when I tried CW for the first time. I played on a friends abandoned account with his Clan and just followed the drop commander's orders. We won every game. Most of them were stomps against solos or teams made up of just one or two members from several units. When I dropped solo on his account I experienced the other side of the coin by getting my a$$ stomped.

Hopefully, an idea like yours will get more new players to try FP and if they see that they can win occasionally they may stay around. It will take a lot more than that to get me back in FP but that is not the topic of this thread.

Thanks for taking the time to present your idea.

[50 50]

The split of the queues at the start o phase 3 aside, the concept of mixing solo players in with groups is a solid idea.
I have been thinking recently that there should be no match maker for FP at all and we instead have a more visible player lobby for each planet so we can see who is already there and connect to the team.
If one lance was allocated/reserved for solo players, then the other two for groups and we perhaps look at changing some options in setting up the groups then the battles should have a good mix of players.

I feel that there are plenty of solutions to improve the game experience in Faction Play, many of which do not seem like difficult options.

[Daidachi]

50 50, on 22 August 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

The split of the queues at the start o phase 3 aside, the concept of mixing solo players in with groups is a solid idea.
I have been thinking recently that there should be no match maker for FP at all and we instead have a more visible player lobby for each planet so we can see who is already there and connect to the team.
If one lance was allocated/reserved for solo players, then the other two for groups and we perhaps look at changing some options in setting up the groups then the battles should have a good mix of players.

I feel that there are plenty of solutions to improve the game experience in Faction Play, many of which do not seem like difficult options.

I get what you're saying - but there literally isn't a match maker for FP.

[Sjorpha]

I think merging the attack and defence queues into one queue on each border would help a lot, currently there is a natural bias for large groups to attack and skittles to defend which is entirely unnecessary.

[MischiefSC]

Sjorpha, on 23 August 2016 - 04:55 AM, said:

I think merging the attack and defence queues into one queue on each border would help a lot, currently there is a natural bias for large groups to attack and skittles to defend which is entirely unnecessary.

This is very true but what I like about the OPs original suggestion is it does what we should have been doing from day 1 -

It incentivizes groups to play with pugs and pugs to search out groups to play with. You force people to do something and they'll find a way to work around it. You incentivize people to do something and they'll gravitate to the incentives. The current model puts pugs and premade teams at odds - pugs hate premades because they get stomped by them. Premades hate pugs because most the pugs they see have no real interest in winning the match just trying to vulture a passable personal score. Because premades almost always beat pugs defending a world is hamstrung by premade defenders having to struggle to win faster than the pugs on that world are losing. When both sides on a border are attacking each other it's literally a race to see who can stomp the other sides pugs the fastest.

It's a terrible system that neither side enjoys. The best solution it currently has is - don't pug, go to your faction TS and group up in a premade. That's it. If instead you incentivized pugs and premades to seek each other out in game you're going to wrap in a bigger segment of the pug player population and show them, by example, what winning looks like and you incentivize both premade and pug to work together for the win.

The success that CJF had in FW 2, 2.5 and the first part of 3 was created largely by some exceptional units (KCom primarily) doing exactly that - dropping in an 8-10 man and showing the pugs what winning looked like. They trained up a huge number of pug players that way. No pressure to get on TS or join a unit or whatever, just show up and do what we say and follow these simple strategies and you'll win a lot more. That progressed to the point that CJF pugs were pretty much unique in that they would pile into the attack queue. This drew more units to CJF because the pugs there were better.

It's an idea that works because we've seen it work without a reward just driven by a unit that's hugely dedicated to FW and has the pugbossing skills to carry it. Combined with an attack/defend queue merge I think it would make a significant change in the FW environment.

[50 50]

Daidachi, on 23 August 2016 - 02:29 AM, said:

I get what you're saying - but there literally isn't a match maker for FP.

Match maker in that the system will currently prioritize a group over solos to try and 'match' 12 player against each other as quickly as possible. It doesn't match based on tier, but it's still trying to find a game for us, decide the mode, pick a random map etc.