413 replies to this topic

[Antares102]

.. as the title says.

Currently I see no reason to take any LBX weapon over normal AC for IS and UAC for Clan unless heavy quirking is involved e.g. Legendkiller.
So why not increase the LBX pellet damage to something like 1.1 or even 1.2 (or even higher till it is worthwile taking)
IS SRMs also have 2.15 per missile so why not apply the damage logic to LBX?
Might make LBX actually usefull.

Edited by Antares102, 30 July 2016 - 09:44 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Wait, wait, wait, wait...

You're saying that a horribly underused weapon that's considered to be utter garbage by most people needs buffing?

WHAT'S NEXT? BUFF MACHINE GUNS?!
Madness!

But yeah, LBXs could use some buffing. A flat damage increase could help.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 30 July 2016 - 09:32 AM.

[Davers]

<Insert obligatory "they are great for crits, great vs lights, it's a good weapon, the problem is you" arguments>

[Elizander]

They can make it into a real shotgun with the pellets doing 1.2 damage or more up until say 20% optimal range, then it drops off to 1.0 damage per pellet to optimal range and then regular damage drop off after that.

This way they are the same at long range and won't take away roles from other ACs but will splat you hard up close.

[El Bandito]

Antares102, on 30 July 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

.. as the title says.

Currently I see no reason to take any LBX weapon over normall AC for IS and UAC for Clan unless heavy quirking is involved e.g. Legendkiller.
So why not increase the LBX pellet damage to something like 1.1 or even 1.2 (or even higher till it is worthwile taking)
IS SRMs also have 2.15 per missile so why not apply the damage logic to LBX?
Might make LBX actually usefull.

LBX pellet needs to be 1.4 or 1.5 to be actually useful without quirks. Afterwards we can tone down LBX quirks of certain mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 July 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[Antares102]

Davers, on 30 July 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

<Insert obligatory "they are great for crits, great vs lights, it's a good weapon, the problem is you" arguments>

That's why every competitive team is using LBX, because it's a really well balanced weapon..... NOT.

Elizander, on 30 July 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

They can make it into a real shotgun with the pellets doing 1.2 damage or more up until say 20% optimal range, then it drops off to 1.0 damage per pellet to optimal range and then regular damage drop off after that.

This way they are the same at long range and won't take away roles from other ACs but will splat you hard up close.

Yeah why not.. good idea but then I would vote for 1.5 damage per pellet that changes to 1.0 after halfway through optimal range.

[Pronotum]

The IS LB10-X weighs one ton less and takes one less slot. That does open up a fair bit of options.

Like on a Marauder you can not carry two AC/10s on the ST. You can carry two LB-10X autocannons. It's a lighter, less bulky close range weapon. It has its own use, and while its usefulness is a bit more specialized, it still has it.

Just like the Gauss Rifles are great weapons but not a great choice on all mechs, so are the LB-10s. And just because most main meta mechs don't seem to fit them that well, does not mean others can't. I've mounted LB-10s on my Dragons, where the one ton matters quite a lot. Had success. I've also used one well on an Urbanmech, though that was more fun than efficient. And I plan to use two on the Marauder, when I get to using that. The weapon compliments close range builds quite well, where the spread does not matter.

The LB-10X is a specialized weapon, but that does not mean it has no use. It's a good weapon with a specialized role. No extra damage is needed. A popular take on it, I am sure... But at least I actually took time to use them long enough to get a good feel for how it goes in practice. Comp teams won't use it since none of the "top tier meta mechs" have a good reason to mount one. That does not mean the weapon is useless. And there are a lot more ways to play than just "top tier competitive meta". Comp metas are always different.

The only thing I would feel comfortable with is 1.1 damage up to 90 meters, akin to the PPC min range, only with a small damage boost. It really does NOT need that much of a boost. I find that a lot of people simply misuse the weapon. Yeah, sue me.

Edited by Pronotum, 30 July 2016 - 09:49 AM.

[Pjwned]

The problem with LBX is that it needs to be good for the crit seeking weapon that it's supposed to be, but the irony is that it's actually worse than every other weapon at doing good critical hit damage.

What should happen is to revise the piss poor critical hit system. Been saying this for a while but it always falls on deaf ears.

Edited by Pjwned, 30 July 2016 - 09:45 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

Just how good is it's chances of causing crits and how big is the crit damage multiplier nowadays anyways? Just asking here....
If it is low i'd say increase it's chances and/or increase crit damage multiplier.

If that is not possible give it some other ability. Since changing ammo would somewhat threaten normal AC's and a programmer faaaar back when screwed up bigtime when he made the ammo code.
I'd say we can also look at alternative solutions. Such as -

- Make LB-X AC's capable of causing crits through armor once the armor is below a certain number treshold.
But that's where i run out of half decent ideas....

[jjm1]

Which is better: 2 tons of ER Meds or 15 tons of LBX?

[El Bandito]

Pronotum, on 30 July 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

The IS LB10-X weighs one ton less and takes one less slot. That does open up a fair bit of options.

Like on a Marauder you can not carry two AC/10s on the ST. You can carry two LB-10X autocannons. It's a lighter, less bulky close range weapon. It has its own use, and while its usefulness is a bit more specialized, it still has it.

Just like the Gauss Rifles are great weapons but not a great choice on all mechs, so are the LB-10s. And just because most main meta mechs don't seem to fit them that well, does not mean others can't. I've mounted LB-10s on my Dragons, where the one ton matters quite a lot. And it compliments close range builds well, where the spread does not matter. I've also used one well on an Urbanmech. And I plan to use two on the Marauder, when I get to using that.

The LB-10X is a specialized weapon, but that does not mean it has no use. It's a good weapon with a specialized role. No extra damage is needed. A popular take on it, I am sure... But at least I actually took time to use them long enough to get a good feel for how it goes in practice.

The only thing I would feel comfortable with is 1.1 damage up to 90 meters, akin to the PPC min range, only with a small damage boost. It really does NOT need that much of a boost. I find that a lot of people simply misuse the weapon. Yeah, sue me.

Facepalm.

[Alistair Winter]

One day, they will track down the guy who knew how to make the LBX change ammo.

[Antares102]

Spleenslitta, on 30 July 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

- Make LB-X AC's capable of causing crits through armor once the armor is below a certain number treshold.
But that's where i run out of half decent ideas....

No thats really a decent idea which i didnt dare to mention. I would even go so far that you can do crits even with full armor but obviously with very little chance.
However, damage increase is more acceptable than this crit system because it's:

• Much easier to implement
  
• Much better understandable for players

Edited by Antares102, 30 July 2016 - 09:49 AM.

[Pronotum]

El Bandito, on 30 July 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Facepalm.

And where did I mention crits? Oh, wait. I didn't. At all.

[PhoenixFire55]

Stop hiding away from the enemy and LBXs will suddenly become very useful.

[jss78]

Alistair Winter, on 30 July 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

One day, they will track down the guy who knew how to make the LBX change ammo.

I'd love an ammo-switching LB-10X. I'd instantly throw one on my Shadow Hawk with 2 tons of slugs and ½ ton clustershot.

I'd be OK with the pellet damage increase. This'd effectively make it a special variant of AC/10: more damaging in close range, but with lesser effectiveness at medium and long range, though again at extreme range it's capable of dealing some damage while the AC/10 is not.

Edited by jss78, 30 July 2016 - 09:57 AM.

[El Bandito]

Pronotum, on 30 July 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

And where did I mention crits? Oh, wait. I didn't. At all.

It is a popular meme picture making fun of people who think LBX are fine. Hint: They are not.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I'd love to see LBX be decent weapons.

Damage boost would be great, I'd really like do see it start with 50% to double damage at point blank range then decrease to 1 damage at its optimal range then 0 at max.

With double damage at point blank range they'd actually be decently comparable to UACs in that they spread damage, are better at shorter ranges, and have less heat.

Edited by Dakota1000, 30 July 2016 - 10:03 AM.

[Pronotum]

El Bandito, on 30 July 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

It is a popular meme picture making fun of people who think LBX are fine. Hint: They are not.

Hint: They're better than you think. Great? Not exactly. They're niched. But definitely not bad.

Anyway, if you don't want to contribute to the discussion, kindly leave. You won't solve a thing like that.

So, back on topic. We ought to look at the main issues people seem to be having with the LB-10X and see what the bloody problem is... Either it is through poor perception and misuse or through an actual issue.

Right now people mentioned crap crits. ...is that all? No.
So, what else is everyone's gripe with them?

Let's all get to the same page, so we can properly discuss this.
Instead of throwing random ideas like crap to the wind.

Edited by Pronotum, 30 July 2016 - 10:04 AM.

[Requiemking]

It really depends. Most of the "bad weapons" can be useful on certain mechs. I run an LB10X on my PXH-1 and I do fairly well as a "tip-of-the-spear" unit. The Mist Lynx is one of the few mechs that can run an ERPPC without quirks. MGs are quite useful when used enmass on the Arrow or the Shadowcat P.