108 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 11:33 PM, said:

What happens when a component not coded to take damage is rolled in a critical hit? Does it absorb it, get destroyed, force a re-roll, pass the damage to the next component?

It skips it entirely, although some components (because PGI is bad at damage modeling) can take damage and be destroyed for no effect. CASE, endosteel, and ferrofibrous slots are skipped when crits are checked.

[Lykaon]

Brain Cancer, on 30 July 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

It skips it entirely, although some components (because PGI is bad at damage modeling) can take damage and be destroyed for no effect. CASE, endosteel, and ferrofibrous slots are skipped when crits are checked.

Yeah pretty much this. But because of some quirks in the code and some poor availability of information we had to test the crap out of things to figure it out.

[Ace Selin]

Mole, on 30 July 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

Well, the test is done. I caused an ammo explosion in Spheroid's right torso with my Nova's machine guns. He dropped like a sack of potatoes despite the C.A.S.E.

Shocking, who would have thought. Im speechless and incredulous at the same time.

[Lightfoot]

If I put CASE with a Gauss Rifle with an XL Engine, the Gauss Rifle explosion does not destroy the engine.

[Tarl Cabot]

Lightfoot, on 31 July 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

If I put CASE with a Gauss Rifle with an XL Engine, the Gauss Rifle explosion does not destroy the engine.

In MWO, the GR explosion does only 20pts of damage and would not destroy the XL engine itself, either in part or in its entirety, since there are no actual engine crit system in MWO. But if your side torso has less than 20pts of internal structure left, when that structure is destroyed by the 20pt GR explosion, the loss of the side torso itself flags the system and the mech is dead.

That is the same mechanic when CT is taken out. You are not destroying the engine, you are simply reducing the number of structural points existing to zero. There are no residual effects from crits hitting the engine. The engine HP mattered only when R&R existed, to determine the cost of repairs.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 31 July 2016 - 01:10 AM.

[Lykaon]

Lightfoot, on 31 July 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

If I put CASE with a Gauss Rifle with an XL Engine, the Gauss Rifle explosion does not destroy the engine.

Try this with a mech with 20 or fewer side torso structure and report back.

[Drunken Skull]

It's a pity there isn't an engine crit system, It would be epic to watch a Timberwolf stumble around like it was drunk due to a Fragged gyro.

Also It'd be fun if the Gyro had limits like it did traditionally, causing mechs to potentially go legs up if they try to corner too hard whilst running(caused by failing a piloting skill roll, and IIRC exacerbated by slippery/paved surfaces).*LOOKING AT YOU LIGHT MECHS* 0.0

Edited by Drunken Skull, 31 July 2016 - 01:33 AM.

[Lykaon]

Drunken Skull, on 31 July 2016 - 01:07 AM, said:

It's a pity there isn't an engine crit system, It would be epic to watch a Timberwolf stumble around like it was drunk due to a gyro hit.

I would love to see a more robust critical damage system in MWo. This feature could be the trick for increasing TTK without reducing the importance of dealing damage.

They could add in a full critical damage system along with increasing the structure health of torso sections for all mechs.

Instead of the current meta of pile as much damage into the CT or side torsos of mechs with spammed alpha strikes we could have it more effective situationally speaking to aim to disable a critical weapon systems instead.

Think of a Victor with an AC20 right arm and significantly boosted torso structure. We could blast away at the torsos piling up engine crits or gyro damage while attempting to deplete the high value of torso structure all the while eating AC20 shots or we could opt to instead take the right arm out and disable the cannon first.

If it was a Hunchback 4G instead we would aim for the right torso because the AC20 occupies most of the internals there so it will get critical damage before the torso is depleted. The difference is currently we would just blow the whole side torso off (and the attached arm) this crit damage mechanic is we aim for a location containing equipment we want to deny the use of and need to ballance those choices against trying for the killshots that take longer.

[Mcgral18]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

The importance of Critical Slot padding is the answer to the increased survival rate here, C.A.S.E DOES NOT directly prevent the XL from being destroyed.

This...is also wrong.
CASE has 0 HP, meaning it can't be Crit (thus indirectly INCREASING the chance of ammo being Hit, as you remove the potential Crit Padding of anything else)

Lykaon, on 30 July 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

To my knowledge CASE is not a viable component for taking damage. Like actuators,gyro and engine slots are coded.

What does take damage is any weapon,ammo heatsink or support electronics placed in a location.

I am actually unsure about MASK I don't have any MASK equiped mechs that I use with enough frequency to have tested it.

Correct, CASE has no HP

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CCASEStats" name="CASE" id="9003">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\CASE.dds" descTag="@CASE_desc" nameTag="@CASE"/>
<ModuleStats health="0" tons="0.5" slots="1" amountAllowed="1" components="right_torso, left_torso"/>
</Module>

MASC does have HP

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CMASCStats" name="MASCMkV" id="1604">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\MASC.png" descTag="@MASCMkV_desc" shortNameTag="@ui_MASCMkV" nameTag="@MASCMkV"/>
<ModuleStats TonsMax="100" TonsMin="90" amountAllowed="1" health="10" tons="5.0" slots="5"/>
<MASCStats WeaponSpread="2.5" WeaponShake="0.25" DamageMax="3.96" DamageMin="3.24" DamageRate="0.5" GaugeDamagePoint="0.75" GaugeDrain="0.04" GaugeFill="0.1" BoostTurn="0.3" BoostDecel="1.65" BoostAccel="1.75" BoostSpeed="0.2"/>
</Module>

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 11:33 PM, said:

What happens when a component not coded to take damage is rolled in a critical hit? Does it absorb it, get destroyed, force a re-roll, pass the damage to the next component?

Brain Cancer, on 30 July 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

It skips it entirely, although some components (because PGI is bad at damage modeling) can take damage and be destroyed for no effect. CASE, endosteel, and ferrofibrous slots are skipped when crits are checked.

The old Crit System just had Roll Again, and my personal experience was that is there is nothing to Crit, you get the bonus 15 damage and that's it.

Anything Empty or 0HP is Roll Again
CASE, Ferro, Endo, Roll Again

Engine, Actuators, Face items, those take Crit Damage and can Crit Pad, 10HP for everything in the game aside from Engine (15), AC20(18), Gauss(5), ECM(3)

[Brain Cancer]

Drunken Skull, on 31 July 2016 - 01:07 AM, said:

It's a pity there isn't an engine crit system, It would be epic to watch a Timberwolf stumble around like it was drunk due to a Fragged gyro.

Also It'd be fun if the Gyro had limits like it did traditionally, causing mechs to potentially go legs up if they try to corner too hard whilst running(caused by failing a piloting skill roll, and IIRC exacerbated by slippery/paved surfaces).*LOOKING AT YOU LIGHT MECHS* 0.0

Actuators too, for that matter. And sensors. I'd laugh if someone ended up having their HUD go POOF because someone cracked their head open.

[Drunken Skull]

As I suspected (that's why I asked the question). So it is not the C.A.S.E that is effectively padding my critical slots but other items such as the LRM10 Launchers, the ECM, and the BAP (the only thing C.A.S.E did do; was add a "roll again" to that crit slot). Something more effective than the C.A.S.E would therefore be something capable of absorbing damage, such as Gauss ammo. I'm guessing that Heat sinks can act as viable crit-stuffing as well. Is this correct?

Edited by Drunken Skull, 31 July 2016 - 02:27 AM.

[sneeking]

In the real world case only works for std engines becaust we have no repairs and reloads.

If we had repairs and reloads case would be more important and xl engine pilots would be using it.

[Satan n stuff]

Lykaon, on 31 July 2016 - 01:06 AM, said:

Try this with a mech with 20 or fewer side torso structure and report back.

I can confirm Gauss rifle explosions can cause a sidetorso kill, if we actually need it.
I've lost a few Black Widows and Flames that way. Both of those actually do have more than 20 sidetorso internal structure but with the current high alpha gameplay it's very likely to happen. Even a solid medium laser hit could destroy a Gauss rifle and unlike ammo a Gauss rifle has a very high chance to explode.
I wasn't running CASE on them for reasons that should be obvious. I'll leave it up to those who think it actually helps to prove it does.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 31 July 2016 - 02:23 AM.

[Lykaon]

Drunken Skull, on 31 July 2016 - 01:44 AM, said:

As I suspected (that's why I asked the question). So it is not the C.A.S.E that is effectively padding my critical slots but other items such as the LRM10 Launchers, the ECM, and the BAP (the only thing C.A.S.E did do; was add a "roll again" to that crit slot). Something more effective than the C.A.S.E would therefore be something capable of absorbing damage, such as Gauss ammo. I'm guessing that Heat sinks can act as viable crit-stuffing as well. Is this correct?

Yes heatsinks can crit pad since they do take damage.

The thing is Ammo (even explosive ammo) can crit pad rather effectivley.

If you have say an XL engine,LRM10 and 2 tons LRM ammo in a side torso (7 of 12 slots used) you could instead have the ammo in 4 half ton lots.

The ammo now fills 4 slots instead of 2.The probability of the ammo actually detonating is so low that the multiple half ton ammo lots is actually benificial. If the ammo takes the hit the LRM10 is still functional and since you have half ton ammo lots less ammo is destroyed when the ammo does get destroyed leaving more ammo to fire later.

In actual practice the benifits are rarely seen since by the time you have an open side torso with an Xl engine in it you are probably done for the very next hit taken to that side. But there are some tiny advantages to doing things this way.

Edited by Lykaon, 31 July 2016 - 02:48 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Ok to clarify something you guys seem to not know or understand about the TT rules... XL engines were NOT destroyed automatically by losing all the internal structure of a side torso from an ammo explosion. Engines have three critical hit points in their shielding. First hit increased the heat escaping the reactor by 5 pts, second by 10 and third causes the reactor to go to auto-shutdown. It doesn't actually destroy the reactor though, and it is possible to repair the shielding and return the mech to action. In addition, simply damaging or destroying the internal structure of a side torso location did not automatically result in a critical hit to the engine spaces located there. You had to roll on the critical hits table to determine if one occurs when an ammo explosion blows out the side torso. Also because CASE prevents the ammo explosion from transfering excess damage to the CT location, it also prevented a pilot from being killed due to feedback through the neural helmet. Completely collapsing the internal CT structure again, from other damage than an ammo explosion, also didn't automatically result in critical hits to the engine, gyro or other equipment in the CT, it just wrecked the skeleton structure of the mech. The components could thus be salvaged still. THOSE reasons are why IS mechs would have XL engines and CASE

[Satan n stuff]

Dee Eight, on 31 July 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

Ok to clarify something you guys seem to not know or understand about the TT rules... XL engines were NOT destroyed automatically by losing all the internal structure of a side torso from an ammo explosion. Engines have three critical hit points in their shielding. First hit increased the heat escaping the reactor by 5 pts, second by 10 and third causes the reactor to go to auto-shutdown. It doesn't actually destroy the reactor though, and it is possible to repair the shielding and return the mech to action. In addition, simply damaging or destroying the internal structure of a side torso location did not automatically result in a critical hit to the engine spaces located there. You had to roll on the critical hits table to determine if one occurs when an ammo explosion blows out the side torso. Also because CASE prevents the ammo explosion from transfering excess damage to the CT location, it also prevented a pilot from being killed due to feedback through the neural helmet. Completely collapsing the internal CT structure again, from other damage than an ammo explosion, also didn't automatically result in critical hits to the engine, gyro or other equipment in the CT, it just wrecked the skeleton structure of the mech. The components could thus be salvaged still. THOSE reasons are why IS mechs would have XL engines and CASE

I'm fairly certain we'd already established that and you're beating a dead horse at this point. Did you actually read the whole thread?

[s0da72]

Now that the OP has been enlightened on how CASE really works.

I wonder if PGI ever consider making CASE work so an IS XL would work like a Clan XL if they did equip CASE.

[sneeking]

We just dont waste our time on builds with case because without repair and reload case is pointless

[Lykaon]

Dee Eight, on 31 July 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

Ok to clarify something you guys seem to not know or understand about the TT rules... XL engines were NOT destroyed automatically by losing all the internal structure of a side torso from an ammo explosion. Engines have three critical hit points in their shielding. First hit increased the heat escaping the reactor by 5 pts, second by 10 and third causes the reactor to go to auto-shutdown. It doesn't actually destroy the reactor though, and it is possible to repair the shielding and return the mech to action. In addition, simply damaging or destroying the internal structure of a side torso location did not automatically result in a critical hit to the engine spaces located there. You had to roll on the critical hits table to determine if one occurs when an ammo explosion blows out the side torso. Also because CASE prevents the ammo explosion from transfering excess damage to the CT location, it also prevented a pilot from being killed due to feedback through the neural helmet. Completely collapsing the internal CT structure again, from other damage than an ammo explosion, also didn't automatically result in critical hits to the engine, gyro or other equipment in the CT, it just wrecked the skeleton structure of the mech. The components could thus be salvaged still. THOSE reasons are why IS mechs would have XL engines and CASE

You do know that the table top rules do specify that when a body segment has all it's internal structure depleted all items in that location are also destroyed.

page 126 Total Warfare states the following.

"Mech fusion engines have 3 points of shielding.Each critical hit to an engine slots destroys 1 point of shielding...

A mech is considered destroyed and out of the game if it suffers 3 engine hits (remember to count engine slots in the side torso if the torso is destroyed)."


This is the specific wording in the core rules about engines being damaged by side torso destruction.

The stuff about component destroyed when a body segment is depleted of all structure points.

Total Warfare page 122 section outlining steps of damage resolution.

"Step 5 Does any internal structure remain in the location?

Yes: Attack is finished

No: The location and all components contained in it are destroyed; any armor remaining at that location (whether front or rear) is also destroyed..."

This should clearify things since this is the rulebook for the table top game I directly quoted and it clearly states you are incorrect.

Edited by Lykaon, 31 July 2016 - 04:56 AM.

[Sorbic]

Lykaon, on 30 July 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

To my knowledge CASE is not a viable component for taking damage. Like actuators,gyro and engine slots are coded.

What does take damage is any weapon,ammo heatsink or support electronics placed in a location.

I am actually unsure about MASK I don't have any MASK equiped mechs that I use with enough frequency to have tested it.

Thanks, this is what I assumed since I couldn't remember ever hearing "Case destroyed".