116 replies to this topic

[Mole]

I actually read your post. I'm apparently a weird mixed bag of killer and explorer. MWO satisfies my needs on both of those parts of me. There's plenty of killing to be had in MWO and 'mechbays are not some mystical legendary pokemon like you seem to make them out to be, because as I've said in your previous thread I have 58 of them and have never bought a single one for MC. With the amount of chassis and possible builds in this game, I have plenty to explore. I've been playing this game for two years and I haven't finished exploring yet, and as long as they keep making new 'mechs I'll still have a lot more exploring to do for a long time. For those that are achievers, PGI has just implimented a leaderboard system that, while kind of funky right now I'm sure will receive fine tuning in the future. There are plenty of achievements to be unlocked, each achievement coming with a reward be it GXP, CBills, a special Cockpit item, or a title that you can wear. FW even has faction ranks that you achieve and can display as you fight for your chosen faction and you get special rewards every time you rank up. For the socializers, there's not much. There needs to be more of a community element for them, and there simply isn't. I dunno man, it seems like PGI has all these gamer archetypes covered except for the socializers, and there are many, many very succesful games out there that don't cover socializers either. I kinda feel like you swung the hammer and missed the nail entirely. Only thing I agree with that you said is that FW is currently a dumpster fire of a game mode, but that's not new information to anyone.

[Dredger]

Idealsuspect, on 02 August 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Pretty sure all you did write in your novel was already said thousand of time before...

But you wouldn't know if I did, because you still didn't read it, did you? Aren't you a bit curious about why it's getting so many likes?

[Dredger]

Mole, on 02 August 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

I dunno man, it seems like PGI has all these gamer archetypes covered except for the socializers, and there are many, many very succesful games out there that don't cover socializers either.

Only thing I agree with that you said is that FW is currently a dumpster fire of a game mode, but that's not new information to anyone.

But if they have all the archetypes covered, wouldn't that mean that the game should have a healthy population? If they have indeed met all the different player's needs why are buckets still an issue? I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain if Hawken can stay afloat, a Mechwarrior game should have no problem.

As far as Faction Warfare, I did suggest a fix...

Edited by Dredger, 02 August 2016 - 02:54 PM.

[Idealsuspect]

Dredger, on 02 August 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

But you wouldn't know if I did, because you still didn't read it, did you? Aren't you a bit curious about why it's getting so many likes?

Already read thousands of time... but ty for your concern
( too long i have to say .. pretty sure it's interesting but well PGI dont read don't care since 4 years they proove us )

Edited by Idealsuspect, 02 August 2016 - 02:55 PM.

[Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh]

ITT: MWO sucks

[Aresye]

People like to whine and call this game a "minimally viable product," as an excuse for a lack of features and/or gameplay, but that's missing the purpose of a MVP, which is still designed to be successful.

For example, a game like Pokemon GO would be considered a minimally viable product, however it is massively successful. Plenty of F2P titles have been massively successful while being minimally viable at the same time.

It's a business concept designed to maximize profits. You can't maximize profit when you marginalize your customer base, and (in the case of MWO) that's where PGI is pretty much shooting themselves in the foot, time and time again.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 August 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

Don't disagree. Am however past believing anyone with the power to make the changes are inclined to either listen or make them. But perhaps you'll succeed where others have failed. Keep up the fight.

IMO, it's not a matter of listening vs. not listening. Russ has stated many times himself that this is a niche IP, and I think PGI's decisions reflect that mindset.

They're afraid of taking risks on things like Solaris, PvE, FW content, etc, because to do so would require a very large time and monetary investment. If PGI is under the idea that these things won't work due to the IP being niche, what motivation is there to do them?

It's like the whole esports thing. We all know Russ wants this game to get into esports, yet he completely ignores the literal gold-mine of esports potential that is Solaris?

It isn't a lack of features that makes me frustrated at PGI. It's them doing things completely contrary to their own goals and success that make me frustrated. Like they're so afraid of taking risks that it's actually hurting them as a company.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Dredger, on 02 August 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Anyway, just my crazy thoughts. Please feel free to offer your own ideas on how to cater to the 4 different player types. Fix this problem, and you fix the bucket problem.

TL;DR: I admit it; the title was clickbait, and you missed a lot of constructive points by jumping to the end. You might want to go back.

This was a pretty good post OP. I think you hit on most of the key reasons why people have been disappointed with this game. People come to MWO looking for a lot of different things and many don't find what they want, or don't find enough of it leading to low player retention or just plain frustrated players.

I think there are 2 main reasons:
1) The original scope of the game was likely too ambitious for the way the project was handled.
2) PGI don't know what they want the game to be (they are not driven by a large artistic vision) and/or they never seem to fully grasp what their players want from the game.

Look at Counter-strike for a moment. CS appeals to Killers and Achievers in the vast majority. It focuses on two types of players that synergize very well. This means the game is tight and delivering according to the expectations of your players is significantly easier.

MWO on the other hand appeals to all 4 types of players, just like an old-school MMO like WoW would. Pleasing all 4 player types is very, very hard to do though (WoW is (arguably) one of the only games to ever truly do it successfully) and makes many of the aspects of the game feel like they are superficial or spread thin.

MWO delivers best on the Killer and Explorer front, while the Achiever side is a bit wonky the only real Achievements being the collecting aspect (and the recent MWOWC, obviously, but we're not going to count that in). The Socializer aspect is very, very bad (having fun with people in TS does not count. We're looking at how the game enforces the social aspect not whether you can have fun in the company of other people using third party software to talk, RP and make Wang jokes)

The issue is that of all 4 the Explorers get the most with the constant mech packs and new toys to play with (even if they are sometimes hampered by balance issues). A lot of the Killer audience is frustrated because PGI keeps getting in the way with weird balance changes and very lackluster game modes with don't add depth. The Achievers... well the default sorting on the leaderboard is different now... yay... I guess. Socializers are getting ignored like they have been since the launch of private lobbies.

Now the question...
Should PGI narrow it's focus down to 2 types of players to give them a full experience and drop the pretense of pleasing everyone (because that's essentially what they have been doing so far) ?
If not what aspect of the game should get the most attention ? In what order ?

IMO PGI should keep trying to juggle but they have to stop wasting time and energy on bad ideas. It can be done. Just not like this. Focus first on the Socializer and Killer audience. Give us global chat ! Something ! Having at least an minimally functional way for players to interact outside of matches and the friends list will give the game a big boost IMO. As for the Killer aspect, no deep time expensive moves. Get those quirks in order. Next would be a true ranking system and Ranked/Unranked queue. Some interesting Explorer things are already on the way with Chassis wide quirks like the Cyclops.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 02 August 2016 - 03:15 PM.

[RedDragon]

Quote

MWO gameplay sucks

[Dredger]

I would say that Killers are probably mostly content right now, and they are fairly easy to please when the game's main feature is shooting. But beefing up another player type gives them more targets, which is also a win for them.

Socializers definately need the most love. But (just my opinion) Faction Warfare will never take off if Quick Match continues to be a clone game-mode with more match variety.

They really need to make them different. 12-man PUG matches usually are impossible to coordinate and the primary strategy is stick together and don't die. Quick Match needs to be more basic and less strategically demanding.

Edited by Dredger, 02 August 2016 - 03:26 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Great read, nice ideas, interesting presentation. Futile, but still I always appreciate when folks put in the effort to try and be constructive. If nothing else it makes me want to pull back on the salt myself...then I remember the futility part. Until someone can convince PGI to at least listen to these sort of points of view, our consideration and discussion of such consepts are indeed futile.

Let me know when anything from the round table, other than Russ's bucket consolidation, is incorporated into the game and then we will know that being constructive is an option. Until then, I fear that salty will continue to be the flavor of the day.

Edit: forgot to mention...no one likes misleading thread titles. Despite what some say, this community is pretty mature and many if not most will read what you have to say, but don't be deceptive about it. Also consider breaking up the op into managable sections.

Edited by Bud Crue, 02 August 2016 - 03:31 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Your post is way too wordy and doesn't adequately bait the point in the opening paragraph. Thus, I feel little compulsion to read further. You've got dense sentences right off the bat and that doesn't work at all.

Rewrite the entire post and fluff it up a bit at the start so we can see what the gist of your point is from the get-go.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 02 August 2016 - 06:56 PM.

[Dredger]

It's only too late to change things when the game servers shut down.

You don't get mad about things you don't care about.

I want to like this game; but I just can't with the way things are. So I do what I can with an idea, and then I wait to see what happens.

[Deathlike]

TL;DR.5

MWO struggles in 3 different things... all of which is important to the relevance of the game.

1) Monotony - If you believe MWO is like watching Groundhog Day at times, well, it's probably true. Some people can recognize the result of a game, based on a few things that occur in a match. While playing with PUGs has a surefired RNG-chaotic element... there are usually signs to point to fail/success once that moment occurs. This and the lack of good modes is part of the problem.

2) Lacking purpose - Despite having mechs in all the mechbays you'll ever need... are you going to spend your time in FW to... only get more points to do what again? I stopped caring about the FW map since Phase 2, but then again... there's no sense of purpose... no alliances... no anything? Even before I'd like to ignore the Long Tom, it lends back towards point #1 once you realize how things play out. I guess the only thing that seems to be remotely interesting in comp play, but that's not for everyone of course.

3) A Sieve Named NPE (New Player Experience) - One of the things that doesn't keep interest is how the new player has to deal with it. Every person that tries to create an alt DOES NOT understand what a new player is looking at. What mech to get? What weapons should be used? Are you even getting help from a friend? Very seldom is when you're able to convert a friend to play the game. Before even that person reaches point #1 or #2, they have to spend quite a bit of time just grinding and grinding, and if you enjoy the game... this is less of a problem... but creating a dropdeck (not even for FW, just for yourself) is a process... let alone just learning to play the game. The game isn't necessarily hard... but the learning curve is tough, and not made any easier by the 3-mech to elite/master system is just a hindrance than anything. Then you have to figure out how much time you really want to spend grinding the C-bills for the mech you'd want... unless you decide to spend actual money and get a mechpack... and that's not really for everyone.


My TL;DR

Monotony, lack of purpose, and crappy NPE makes for a very stale MWO. At this point... the next Heavy/Assault leaderboard may just grind you into boredom and growing apathy about the game's direction and development will ultimately kill the game... unless it's the lack of direction that does it first.

[Dredger]

Mister Blastman, on 02 August 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Your post is way too wordy and doesn't adequately bait the point in the opening paragraph.

Sadly, I wouldn't know where to begin. I am no author.

[Dredger]

Deathlike, on 02 August 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

TL;DR.5

I will say this. Getting a good solid amount of backstory, purpose, and lore into CW would please both the Socializers and Explorers greatly.

And if they slightly altered and used the game-modes from Quick Match to add variety to the mission types in CW, it could potentially take off. (as long as quick match doesn't remain its identical, easier twin)

I'm sure the Socializers would also enjoy being able to form their own alliances rather than having ones forced upon them. Even if that means some alliances aren't necessarily 'canon'.

Edited by Dredger, 02 August 2016 - 03:56 PM.

[Cizjut]

Actually very interesting read. It should be taken into account by someone on PGI.

This is very good, and I actually agree entirely.

Maybe don't use the overly agressive post title, tho. But it's a good clickbait in the end.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 02 August 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

People like to whine and call this game a "minimally viable product," as an excuse for a lack of features and/or gameplay, but that's missing the purpose of a MVP, which is still designed to be successful.

For example, a game like Pokemon GO would be considered a minimally viable product, however it is massively successful. Plenty of F2P titles have been massively successful while being minimally viable at the same time.

It's a business concept designed to maximize profits. You can't maximize profit when you marginalize your customer base, and (in the case of MWO) that's where PGI is pretty much shooting themselves in the foot, time and time again.


IMO, it's not a matter of listening vs. not listening. Russ has stated many times himself that this is a niche IP, and I think PGI's decisions reflect that mindset.

They're afraid of taking risks on things like Solaris, PvE, FW content, etc, because to do so would require a very large time and monetary investment. If PGI is under the idea that these things won't work due to the IP being niche, what motivation is there to do them?

It's like the whole esports thing. We all know Russ wants this game to get into esports, yet he completely ignores the literal gold-mine of esports potential that is Solaris?

It isn't a lack of features that makes me frustrated at PGI. It's them doing things completely contrary to their own goals and success that make me frustrated. Like they're so afraid of taking risks that it's actually hurting them as a company.

which ties into them not listening to what their playerbase wants. You keep banging your drum to your own beat, and happen to be tone deaf, people tend to leave. Well, I'd say his little FW roundtable demonstrated to all just how tone deaf he is to the playerbase.

[Dredger]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 August 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

Well, I'd say his little FW roundtable demonstrated to all just how tone deaf he is to the playerbase.

But has anyone ever tried explaining to him logically that by reducing player options he is only going to exacerbate the exodus of current players, and that the real issue lies within the shallow repetitiveness of the core gameplay? I'm going to guess the answer is yes, I just wanted to ask.

Edited by Dredger, 02 August 2016 - 04:09 PM.

[Deathlike]

Dredger, on 02 August 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

I will say this. Getting a good solid amount of backstory, purpose, and lore into CW would please both the Socializers and Explorers greatly.

Lore isn't an overwhelming reason for things... it's just an added cool factor for people that care. The problem is that PGI has put next to no effort there (outside the occasional patch note/mechpack release).

Quote

And if they slightly altered and used the game-modes from Quick Match to add variety to the mission types in CW, it could potentially take off. (as long as quick match doesn't remain its identical, easier twin)

I don't think that's a great solution... not that you can't do it that way, but more of the same isn't exactly going to keep things magically more interesting.

Quote

I'm sure the Socializers would also enjoy being able to form their own alliances rather than having ones forced upon them. Even if that means some alliances aren't necessarily 'canon'.

That'll happen on its own - like Phase 1. The problem was that the interest in Phase 2 and 3 decreased due to lack of variety. These things will naturally occur as the mode stays interesting... but it's better if alliances can be made official.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 August 2016 - 04:10 PM.

[Mystere]

Aresye, on 02 August 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

IMO, it's not a matter of listening vs. not listening. Russ has stated many times himself that this is a niche IP, and I think PGI's decisions reflect that mindset.

They're afraid of taking risks on things like Solaris, PvE, FW content, etc, because to do so would require a very large time and monetary investment. If PGI is under the idea that these things won't work due to the IP being niche, what motivation is there to do them?

It's like the whole esports thing. We all know Russ wants this game to get into esports, yet he completely ignores the literal gold-mine of esports potential that is Solaris?

It isn't a lack of features that makes me frustrated at PGI. It's them doing things completely contrary to their own goals and success that make me frustrated. Like they're so afraid of taking risks that it's actually hurting them as a company.

If they're so afraid of taking risks, then they should have never talked about Community Warfare in the first place and should have just shut up. As such, I think the founders have every right to constantly roast them over a hot burning fire.

Edited by Mystere, 02 August 2016 - 04:12 PM.