116 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Koniving, on 02 August 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

Video form of what Dredger was trying to get across:

It'll let you slip past about 70% of that wall of text.

Without ruining your enjoyment of the great things that were trying to be said.

Maybe post this to Russ' Twitter instead of here for me?




IMO this ship sailed years ago, PGI aint fixing sh%t. I still dont care about what was said because it isnt really for me, its for PGI. My opinion is kinda moot, advice was for OP to get better results next time.

[Dredger]

Revis Volek, on 02 August 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

My opinion is kinda moot, advice was for OP to get better results next time.

I don't know, this is the fastest I've ever seen one of my threads blow up before. Kinda worked out nicely.

Glad someone found the video. Last time I brought Bartle's Taxonomy up was a few years ago with a different community. I simply posted the video, and the thread died a quiet death because nobody could be bothered to watch it.

I'm just glad people around here seem to care, even if they are horribly discouraged and pessimistic about PGI ever listening.

[Revis Volek]

Dredger, on 02 August 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

I don't know, this is the fastest I've ever seen one of my threads blow up before. Kinda worked out nicely.

Glad someone found the video. Last time I brought Bartle's Taxonomy up was a few years ago with a different community. I simply posted the video, and the thread died a quiet death because nobody could be bothered to watch it.

I'm just glad people around here seem to care, even if they are horribly discouraged and pessimistic about PGI ever listening.

I care a lot, maybe too much at time and about certain things in this game. But PGI has a vision and it doesnt seem like its 20/20 but they know they are they only game in town so until something else rivals this i dont see the need for them to admit defeat.

[Zordicron]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 August 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

An interesting read... (hey I'm of Irish descent..the story, the journey always means more than the destination... because once you're there.... it's over. *shrug* ).

Don't disagree. Am however past believing anyone with the power to make the changes are inclined to either listen or make them. But perhaps you'll succeed where others have failed. Keep up the fight.

I agree with this sentiment.

To OP:

Indeed, your premise is old news, though I suspect many younger gamers have never heard of the concept. It has it's flaws, but most thinkers can see them and simply take them in consideration when using the concept to criticize or review a game.

In regards to your format, as others apparently take issue with it- I wouldn't worry a whole lot about it. Certainly there are going to be many that simply can't focus on something long enough to digest it, but in most cases they will offer nothing of substance to a discussion about it anyway. a simple suggestion if you feel inclined to attempt to include more of the MWO community(even the ones that need pretty pictures to follow along) would be to snip out your rehashing of the old concept and simply replace it with a link to the youtube video Koniving was so kind to post.

As for fixing MWO, it will take the removal of Russ, or in another way, the addition of a new lead dev(wherein Russ ascends to the lofty CEO position or some other somesuch and just spends time signing checks and promoting espurts) to see ANY type of fundamental fixes to MWO. This is Russ' PRECIOUS, and NO ONES WILL TAKES IT. Russ has made his Marine Sharpshooter with battletech robots, and feels the shooty part is done. And thats all he ever wanted to make, another form of shooty. He wanted to call it quits on MWO and start a new shooty, SHOOTY IN SPACE(remember that kickstarter we must never speak it's name....) and even though he realizes there is a fundamental flaw in the game, he doesn't want to invest in fixing it. For sure not in the shooty part....... so we dabble in info warfare..... and then shake our head, throw our hands up and ask what the heck do these guys want, we already have cool robots to shoot with cool lasers!!?

Comp style shooty, is the natural progression now that shooty is done being developed. Anything else is a threat to Russ' PRECIOUS, and so WE HATES IT.


it is amazing to me the fanbase of Battletech, still after all these years trying to get PGI to morph MWO into an actual Mechwarrior game. You guys need to start pitching ideas to that other founder over there with that other actual Battletech game. maybe if he rakes in some cash on his current project, he will branch out....


Because NO ONE WILL EVER GET RUSS PRECIOUS. He MUST GUARDS IT CLOSE. Any nickle spent without a 150% profit return ensured is too great a risk and shortens the life of this cash cow.

[Idealsuspect]

Dredger, on 02 August 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Actually, it was only the title and first sentence that were irrelevant. Which means you didn't make it past either before getting to the TL;DR...

Hey yea definitivly nice post, title wasnt appropriate maybe.
The thing is i am not sure that "gameplay" suck like you said but you will need to go to the end for know what really suck IMO .


We can say thats this game is designed for killer, not because PGI want only touch them like when they say/troll " best Esport in tha world " but because design a game for sociazers, explorers and achievers is simply too hard/big for PGI.


Too hard too big for PGI why ? Because they are small? Yea sure but they did get 4 years and lots of money income for solve this problem, any another small compagny would did solve 90% of problems with all this amount time and cash incomes.
Because lack of skills? Yea it seem create a whole video game was too big for PGI we know they did work on others videos game before like transformers or duke nukem forever ( yea this game lol ) but with 4 years you have time for learn or improve yours skills.
Also why ? Because of lack of vision. Guess people in charge maybe simply don't really like videos games...



For socializers what we have ? Zero ..

• For example this game got his own internal VoiceIP system and LFG system in 2014/2015 i guess... 2-3 years playing this "team based " game without any socials tools also we know PGI dont care about socializers.
  
• Even chat and friendlist are still buggued. Oh we have the opportunity to add people in our friendlist without remember theirs exact name after the match by clicking on them in match list but it's very new maybe 1 year maybe 1,5 year ...

In fact in this game the most advanced socializer's feature is the report system and i am totally serious.




And for achievers what we have ?

• Really recent leaderboards ( 3 months ago ) with no options at all. Adding people in your friendlist, check theirs profils well nothing of this .. only check stats lol ... and stats which are reset every seasons , months reset for no reasons with no rewards

Well in fact it's a message for all achievers " Guys dont stay in this game for have your names on leaderboards we dont want you, also every months and every seasons we will troll you endless if you play for this pointless reason "

• No any feelings when you are fighting for your faction on FW i guess the only pinnacle we got as FW players were tukkayid events...Everybody fight on tukkayid, IS vs Clan, winners get terra but in fact whatever who won tukkayid the only result were " A TOTAL FW MAP RESET BOUAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHA "

Ok PGI nice troll i have to say ... we can understand this reset one time, two time but **** even 3 years after you still reset this poor useless game mode ok




For explorers we should said same... zero or close too.

• FW is a QP mode with 4 respawns and x4 waiting time .. nothing more.
  
• No economical aspect only yours cbills incomes and pay for customize your mech.
  
• There is no special unique place that you cant see on others games, 90% of maps are really basic, nothing huge or exceptional Maybe only Vitric forge map with his awesome blue star is something kind of unique in this game, tourmeline and grim portico are cool place but nothing really "unique".
  
• Mechlab is really basic you need to go on smurfy or Li song mechlab for get "deeper" experience and PGI don't even make official mention of thoses tools for some causual or news players could test thoses tools no no ...

In fact the deeper feature of this game for explorer/achievers is the customisation of our battlemechs but it exist since MW2 and cause of FASA's initial work on BT tableboard game.






Ok after this you know what suck for me in this game:
Isn't the gameplay,
Isn't the poor amount of features,
Isn't the fact that this game is only a 12 vs 12 arena skirmish mode,
Isn't the fact of whatever how much you play and how you are good or bad you are c this game have no beginning and no end,
Isn't the fact that this game have no really purpose or goals to offers to players/customers out of "just kill or be killed", "buy mech with MCs or buy them with Cbills".

For me what suck in this game it's that the this the only MW game we got since 15 years and maybe for next 7 - 10 years and yea after 4 years almost the whole game still suck .

Pretty sure that the real purpose of PGI was too create a game, get money for create another average game, get the money and create something again and again i have nothing to say against this, it was just bad luck that BT and PGI were matched together
Now we are, as BT fans, totally stuck with this and PGI are stuck with us.


Edit: Everything isn't bad with MWO that isn't my point.
Since 4 years i play and i can say that, like Tribes Ascend, this game is a real F2P game not a P2W and mediocre players have to learn from goods players if they want perform a bit..
2 very good points in middle of 50 bads points lol.

Dredger, on 02 August 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

But if I logic hard enough...

Maybe?

Thousands of guys did try it before. But nice try indeed we had a nice topic for realise why this game failed and will still fail.. but well nothing new ^^ just nice memories about the reasons of this fail.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 03 August 2016 - 12:43 AM.

[Yozzman]

Brings out the story with 3 kinds of people...

Di**s
Pu**ies
A**holes

You all know how it goes

[Koniving]

Revis Volek, on 02 August 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Maybe post this to Russ' Twitter instead of here for me?




IMO this ship sailed years ago, PGI aint fixing sh%t. I still dont care about what was said because it isnt really for me, its for PGI. My opinion is kinda moot, advice was for OP to get better results next time.

I have, along with "Doing Freeplay wrkng" which is a really good one about good practices and bad ones, and numerous others.

And yeah, I feel the ship has sailed which is why my purchases have been minimal at best for the last year. Instead, I'm working on a proof of concept for a Battletech Sim that puts troops on the ground, tanks on the treads and 'Mechs at the side, not forgotten or abandoned just not center stage.

[UnofficialOperator]

Not a bad post, but come on, you gonna begrudge them $1.20 usd per mech bay?

[Alienized]

Yozzman, on 03 August 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

Brings out the story with 3 kinds of people...

Di**s
Pu**ies
A**holes

You all know how it goes

i freely admit that im an a**hole and a d**k at times, especially if the teams play like a bunch of pu**ies

or players that put 2 er ppc's and nothing else in a spirit bear just to hunt lights.
then thinking *i got 2 kills, im better than you* has anything to do with how he played or that he done more than others with 0 kills.

[Dar1ng One]

Tarogato, on 02 August 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

MWO appeals perfectly to all four for me.

This is me too.

Good points made but your topic title is.... incorrect. The game play for me is very fun, it can be a little imbalanced on some maps and some mechs but for the most part it requires a few tactics and provides customization that other games can't touch.

Having been here before the start I can give you two perspectives, one as high $ contributing Founder and the other currently as a no spend player.

MWO has sadly been (I stress from my perspective) a series of missed marketing opportunities and poorly timed decisions.

A few examples ; 2016 we saw the Warhammer finally make it to MWO. Yes this mech has been associated with controversy (unseen/macross/robotech licence issue) but if you google the video of MW5, you will see 2 icons fighting, Atlas and Warhammer.

The Warhammer is the mech that should have been leading the charge from the start.

Then as we received and went though the pop tart mechs, cataphact, highlander, Victor, (ah yes the 2xPPC/Gauss Combo.) Good times.

Still not as bad as the imbalance yet to come.

The Clan mechs. Untouchable and god like at their release. I remember asking Russ and co way back then to not release the clans or at least delay as I stated it would unbalance the game to a high degree, (Just like in battletech).

And they did.

So out came the Clan mechs, and then rather then worry about balance, came GOLD skins for $623 AUD (back then).

The time they spent developing that mech pack could have gone towards an introductory story, to flesh out the universe and some lore.

Why is Counter Strike and Pokemon GO so popular? Because CS had a complete story built first with Half Life, and Half Life 2. CS was just a good death match based mod built on an engine associated with a polished story and lore.

Pokemon is the same. Nostalgia is priceless. A simple story, simple lore, and yet it is one of the most addictive 1 vs 1 (AI at this stage) mobile games at this time of posting.

Battletech has a deep and rich universe, but PGI, has failed to use any of the battletech stories/wars to cash in on nostalgia and make this game main steam.


Honourable mentions ;
Star Craft
Goldeneye and by extension, Halo
Street Fighter 2
Star Wars : Battlefront
EDIT : ooh I forgot Fallout, and that's not even an MMO

Mmmmmmm..... yes

Mech-Cellent!

Edited by Dar1ng One, 03 August 2016 - 01:43 AM.

[The Basilisk]

An other attemp to shorten the status description of MWO: Concept state
Am I serious ?
Absolutely!
MWO has lots of good ideas with huge potential but the execution is always nothing more than an outline, just a itty bitty taste of what could be. From closed beta on there where lots of realy cool little things that got ppl hooked.
Smashed in cockpits, detailed damage animation, mechs toppling, mech terrain interaction (terrain had actually a logical impact on mechs and a fast mech could topple in difficult terrain) and thats just a quick glimps of the things concerning the mech warfare aspect of the game.

You remember the pillars concept ?
Mechwarfare (MW), Community Warfare (CW), Role warfare that dryed up little pittyful skilltree we got was meant as a placeholder nothing more (RW), Supply: Yes initially munition and R&R was in and did cost so you had a reason to equip cheaper and less ammunition consuming weapons, as trade of ammo weapons where realy dangerous.

Tonns of REALY AWSOME GOOD STUFF

Nobody can say PGI would be some uncreative bunch of guys just coppying stuff to grab money.
Regarding the creativity aspect they are realy awsome.
They are a good artwork studio.

But ppl before you demand a better game do some research and realize PGI is originaly not a full fleshed MMO developer.
Prior to MWO they worked with EA and did some contract work, made a fishing game and worked on the multiplayer version of duke nukem forever.

MWO as you see it is the learning and growing process of a games developer.
And they've choose one of the most difficult communitys and fanbases that could have choosen.
(Arguable if that was a wise choice but hey nobody else wanted the IP)
Russ Bullok once said we shouldn't hope for PGI to drop the Battletech/MW IP because nobody would feel inclined to pick it up.
I think he is quite right on that. Remember how MWO started --> MW5 singleplayer (like the other MW titles before) but they did not find an Investor and/or publisher.

So whats my point?
Stop wishing for big alteration and large development leaps.
Why?
Because PGI just can't.
Think of any amount of little artwork and scripting stuff but don't wish for changes of the basic gameplay that won't happen in timeframes below one or two years.

[MrMadguy]

OP, Bartle system isn't complete. It's doesn't include "RPers" for example, i.e. players who need immersion and fantasy. I.e. this are players, who like imagining, that they pilot big stompy robots. In Bartle's system they are merged with "Explorers", yeah. But this is wrong. "Explorers" like to dig into game mechanics, but customization - is what "RPes" like, not "Explorers". Read Motivations of Play in MMORPGs for example. This system isn't complete too - in this system "Killers" and merged with "Achievers", which is wrong too.

I personally prefer 4-dimention system:
"Achievers" <-> "Killers": both like competition, but have different and even opposite approaches to achieving their goal. "Achievers" are focused on their goal, like to make a plan and follow it, they like routine, i.e. to do the same things again, again and again. "Killers" on the opposite, are focused on process itself, they like diversity, hate routine and like to test themselves.
"Explorers" <-> "RPers": both like immersion, but the difference between them, is that "RPers" have fantasy and use game only as a seed and physical embodiment of their fantasy and "Explorers" don't have a fantasy - they have to use results of somebody's else fantasy to "feed" themselves.
"Socializers" <-> "Exiles": both are social, i.e. need other players to interact with them. But first are social and second are anti-social. First like communication and teamwork, second like griefing and trolling.
"Casual" <-> "Hardcore": this determines, how serious players treat the game and what threshold of difficulty they are ready to set for themselves. I.e. two players can be "Achievers", but one players may want to be the best in a world and second may want to simply collect all 'Mechs.

I'm: "Achiever", "RPer", neutral between "Socializers" and "Exiles" and "Casual". This game that suits for "Killers" and "Exiles" the most, have nothing to offer for me. I play it mostly due to immersion - I played MW games in the past and think, that it have always been the best game about 'Mech combat.

So, currently the worst thing in this game - is balance, bias towards Meta, i.e. all builds being cookie cutters. This kills all sense of competition, cuz you feel, that Meta 'Mech - is biggest part of success, not your skill. This kills all the incentive to collect and level up different 'Mech. It kills all interest in digging into game mechanics. It kills all the interest for customization. It kills all the incentive for social interaction. 95% of 'Mechs are useless in this game. MechLab is useless in this game. Teamwork is useless in this game. Etc. Almost all incentives to play this game are dead. Griefing and trolling other players - is the only thing, that rest in this game.

Edited by MrMadguy, 03 August 2016 - 02:09 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I would figure I am an Explorer so when PGI cut c-bills and put a stop to experimenting I lost a lot of enjoyment in the game.

In what I see the only ones having a good time here are the killers so that's only 1/4 of the players they could reach.

[Dredger]

MrMadguy, on 03 August 2016 - 01:49 AM, said:

OP, Bartle system isn't complete.

I personally prefer 4-dimention system:

Hmmm... never heard of those other classifications before. That's very interesting. I'll have to look into that more. Though I will say I'm tempted to stick to the simpler 4, mostly because it is easier to balance for 4 types than it is for... 16? types.

But you do make a good point. I would almost say players who RP are equal parts Explorer and Socializer. They love the detail of the lore and love immersing themselves in that world with others. Honestly, RP is impossible without others.

Again, that is just me simplifying things in the hope that it doesn't overwhelm PGI. Which for all I know has already happened.

Honestly, I think the best way to get things to change is to present a reasoned argument showing PGI that they are missing potential customers, and then present a few inspiring ideas. Simple is always better, but if you can prove that lots of players really want something specific, maybe they'll listen. Of course that means the community has to actually agree to some extent, which doesn't seem to be much of a problem at the moment. I don't think I've seen a community like this before.

Edited by Dredger, 03 August 2016 - 02:54 AM.

[WarPickle]

Wall of text... my eyes hurt from light color on dark color forum... ughhh.... a for dummies version anyone

[Mudhutwarrior]

WarPickle, on 03 August 2016 - 03:00 AM, said:

Wall of text... my eyes hurt from light color on dark color forum... ughhh.... a for dummies version anyone

These kind of posts make me laugh. I lost most of my sight by an IED in Iraq. I read it with no issues whatsoever.

You guys are not fooling anyone with the TLDR and my eyes hurt thing, In truth what your saying is you can only think in meme sized bites. Just post in the the meme threads then and your good.

[MrMadguy]

Dredger, on 03 August 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

Hmmm... never heard of those other classifications before. That's very interesting. I'll have to look into that more. Though I will say I'm tempted to stick to the simpler 4, mostly because it is easier to balance for 4 types than it is for... 16? types.

But you do make a good point. I would almost say players who RP are equal parts Explorer and Socializer. They love the detail of the lore and love immersing themselves in that world with others. Honestly, RP is impossible without others.

Again, that is just me simplifying things in the hope that it doesn't overwhelm PGI. Which for all I know has already happened.

Honestly, I think the best way to get things to change is to present a reasoned argument showing PGI that they are missing potential customers, and then present a few inspiring ideas. Simple is always better, but if you can prove that lots of players really want something specific, maybe they'll listen. Of course that means the community has to actually agree to some extent, which doesn't seem to be much of a problem at the moment. I don't think I've seen a community like this before.

I simply tried to apply Bartle's system to myself in order to determine, why I picked MMORPGs in a first place, whether MMORPGs actually suit me or I've picked the wrong game. Cuz MMORPGs - are games for everybody and involve too many compromises as the result, so sometimes it's better to pick more niche game. And... I failed. I simply found, that "RPer" - is completely different kind of player, cuz I love immersion, fantasy, customization, escapism, etc. but I'm neither "Explorer", nor "Socializer". I.e. that I play MMORPG, simply cuz I'm "RPer". The reason, why Bartle haven't included "RPers" into his system - is that his game was TEXT ONE, i.e. things, like customization, didn't even exist. Also I have some traits of "Killer", i.e. I played shooters, like CS and Quake, in the past and actually liked them. I also like to test myself - i.e. I like games, where RNG and unpredictable situations are involved - and PVP games are exactly such kind of games. I'm not "Killer" simply because "Achiever" dominates over "Killer" in me. But I hate griefing, trolling, disturbing other players, etc. So I realized, that "Griefer" =/= "Killer". So, system, where there are several completely different kinds of "Killers" - "Sportsman", "Griefer", etc., different kinds of "Explorers", etc. - is obviously isn't complete enough, cuz this system is used by game developer to make their game suitable for their target auditory and when you make game for "Killer" but there are two kinds of them and they have different preferences, that can even contradict to each other - then this is definitely bad system.

I mean, I know, that "RPer" falls under "Explorer" category and "Griefer"/"Exile" falls under "Killer" category in Bartle's system. In this case you're right. I know, that my Bartle test results are:
100% Achiever,
50% Explorer
50% Killer
0% Socializer.

But I just can't call myself "Explorer"... "Explorer" is assumed to explore something by definition. Lore, terrain, game mechanics. And I don't care about all of there things. My interests are completely different. So, if somebody would ask me, what kind of player am I and I would answer "Explorer" - this would sound wrong. I tried to find different categories of "Achievers" and "Socializers" and didn't find any - yeah, they can have different interests, but overall they are very similar and can fall under the same simple definition. That's why I decided, that 4 categories - aren't enough. "RPers" - use their own fantasy and have some different interests. They make their own "content" - not use existing one. They are "writers" and "Explorers" are "readers". And "Griefers"/"Exiles" - are anti-social players, who may differ from just "Killers", who may actually be very social (as raid leaders, mentioned in your video).

So this is about balance between categories. "Explorer" category - is way too wide and vague in comparison to "Socializer" category for example.

Edited by MrMadguy, 03 August 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[Stone Wall]

Idealsuspect, on 02 August 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Didnt read all but plz man.. go play COD and bye.

You are definitely part of the MWO community.

[Idealsuspect]

Stone Wall, on 03 August 2016 - 03:45 AM, said:

You are definitely part of the MWO community.

You too .. you are that kind of people we have to carry during every matchs.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Idealsuspect, on 03 August 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

You too .. you are that kind of people we have to carry during every matchs.

So your going to pay to operate the game by yourselves or are you just stupid completely lacking foresight?

I go with the latter.