233 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

im not sure if i posted this or not but thermodynamically speaking, realistic heat mechanics would be purely linear. firing 16 lasers would give you the same heat as firing 1 laser 16 times (not counting for the time you have to cool down between shots). no exponential curves. its pretty much the sum of gains minus the sum of losses over time. sinking mechanics would be a little weird. you would have radiant heat mechanics as well thermal transfer mechanics (sink to atmo or possibly ground). it would make hpg manifold the hottest map in the game (i seem to recall mechwarrior 2 getting this right). also heat moves faster when there is a high differential, so when you are redlining you will cool down significantly faster than when you at about a 3rd.

sure instant convergence would be gone, instead you might have up to a quarter second of delay between setting the setpoint and the guns lining up to it, sort of like waiting for the torso to catch up to the crosshair but much faster. it would require stronger fire discipline. light mechs would be significantly harder to track. also tracking rates would depend on tonnage, so a small laser will traverse faster than a gauss rifle. lights would be less worried about arm mounted ballistics. im not asking for total realism, that is well beyond pgi's abilities. also mechs would be tripping over things, falling down and getting stuck in the mud a lot. on the other hand dfa would work though and the levels would be less dead, mech collisions would work right and melee would be a thing. one thing i like about the bt lore is that it has hard sci-fi elements in it. torch ships and brachistochrone trajectories oh my.

Edited by LordNothing, 10 August 2016 - 10:25 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

InspectorG, on 10 August 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

They don't automatically fire when an enemy is in the reticle.
don't read too much into this, it's a joke response to a joke thread.

This is not a joke thread. Plenty of people have already started speculation threads of how Reactor Output will have effects on your Mech based on the assumption that PGI is introducing an electrical energy draw feature to the game.

There is no electricity draw feature, though. There is no power source that is being tapped and taxed.

The only "real" explanation for the proposed Alpha Limit mechanism is that there is some kind of unifying force that bonds all your weapons together and will not let you expend "X" amount t of firepower at once. It's not based on electricity, it's not based on recoil, it's not based on heat output of the weapons.

It's literally based on some kind of Honor Code that your weapons all abide by, and if you dispense too much firepower from ANY mixture of weapons then they agree to summon the Heat Gods and cause your Mech temperature to increase.

It's not a power draw or an energy draw. It's purely an Alpha Limit. We should stop confusing people and suggesting that electrical/power draw is in any way involved.

[InspectorG]

Prosperity Park, on 10 August 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

The only "real" explanation for the proposed Alpha Limit mechanism is that there is some kind of unifying force that bonds all your weapons together and will not let you expend "X" amount t of firepower at once. It's not based on electricity, it's not based on recoil, it's not based on heat output of the weapons.

The "real" explanation is thus: an average-skilled game developer(s) are trying to balance a game with too many variables and they lack the experience.

Trying to coat it with the proper lore-bases pseudo science terminology is completely irrelevant. Quibbling over what they call it can only be a joke.

They can call it 'the Blue Mechanic' for all i care, long as it works fairly well.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

good question, if you put a bigger engine in can you get bigger "draw" since thats the BS excuse theyre going with?

I mean im sure the answer would be no but it wouldnt make **** for sense with this being power output supposedly and all -.-

Hey if the answer were no that'd kill the idea of it's name wouldnt it? lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 11 August 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

cant we just stick with PowerDraw,
i have some ideas if it plays out the way i think it will,
but im ganna wait post those ideas until i know how PowerDraw works,
it could be amazing, but it could also need some work, i have hopes,

[Mavairo]

Good bye SRMs..

[Gas Guzzler]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 August 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

cant we just stick with PowerDraw,
i have some ideas if it plays out the way i think it will,
but im ganna wait post those ideas until i know how PowerDraw works,
it could be amazing, but it could also need some work, i have hopes,

Posted a 1300 damage game with 5 kills with a Power Draw legal Warhammer the other day. Say good bye to balance.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 August 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

Posted a 1300 damage game with 5 kills with a Power Draw legal Warhammer the other day. Say good bye to balance.

I did similar with a power-draw legal Marauder a few nights ago. Both of my 3Rs are **-legal, and they both destroy face.

It's just going to be dakka/dakka+PPC all day. Sound familiar to anybody?

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 August 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

I did similar with a power-draw legal Marauder a few nights ago. Both of my 3Rs are **-legal, and they both destroy face.

It's just going to be dakka/dakka+PPC all day. Sound familiar to anybody?

Indeed... 2 PPCs, 2 UAC5s on the Whammy. First match ever with that loadout on a Warhammer, but then I put it down so I could warm up with the Executioner for the weekend (power draw is going to kill the Executioner from being solo-queue viable ).

[Johnny Z]

So funny the spam is that limits on alphas will make things worse. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

Gas Guzzler shot me down on this one. First time I have bothered to admit it though.

Changed to "NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE."

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 August 2016 - 10:19 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Johnny Z, on 12 August 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

So funny the spam is that limits on alphas will make things worse. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

It makes balance worse, no question.

[Johnny Z]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 August 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

It makes balance worse, no question.

What can I say. You guys are good at coming up with complete nonsense. Limits on up to 100 point alphas wont hurt the game in any way. Nor will it make balance worse.

There is no possible way that balance can be worse from alpha limits.

Also GG if I wasn't aware of the situation and been on these forums for quite a while I would start to believe that alpha limits would hurt balance to, after readying many of the replies here. But it wont.

Worste case scenario is apha limits would ruin diversity. I don't "think" it will. The pros will have figured out if it will or not for sure though. Its not in their interest to ruin mech chassis diversity.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 August 2016 - 10:14 AM.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 August 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

Posted a 1300 damage game with 5 kills with a Power Draw legal Warhammer the other day. Say good bye to balance.

Good. Can you ellaborate on details how the Power Draw system works what are parameters of the system (limits, weapons stats updates etc.) as you seem to be the only one with the data on the matter?

[Johnny Z]

Prosperity Park, on 10 August 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

This is not a joke thread. Plenty of people have already started speculation threads of how Reactor Output will have effects on your Mech based on the assumption that PGI is introducing an electrical energy draw feature to the game.

There is no electricity draw feature, though. There is no power source that is being tapped and taxed.

The only "real" explanation for the proposed Alpha Limit mechanism is that there is some kind of unifying force that bonds all your weapons together and will not let you expend "X" amount t of firepower at once. It's not based on electricity, it's not based on recoil, it's not based on heat output of the weapons.

It's literally based on some kind of Honor Code that your weapons all abide by, and if you dispense too much firepower from ANY mixture of weapons then they agree to summon the Heat Gods and cause your Mech temperature to increase.

It's not a power draw or an energy draw. It's purely an Alpha Limit. We should stop confusing people and suggesting that electrical/power draw is in any way involved.

This "alpha limit" can be explained in many "space magic" ways.

- The reactor energy storage only stores so much energy.

- Mech gyro and stabilizers can only handle so much recoil from ballistics.

- Mech reloading mechanism takes massive power. Which it would.

- The dylithium crsystals need to be replaced.

- etc.

[Gas Guzzler]

pyrocomp, on 12 August 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Good. Can you ellaborate on details how the Power Draw system works what are parameters of the system (limits, weapons stats updates etc.) as you seem to be the only one with the data on the matter?

Ghost heat style limit on damage to about 30, heat penalty incurred above 30 damage, possible reduction of damage value for spread weapons. That's what has been indicated.

If what they release on the PTS is different, I'm going to attribute that mostly to my bitching and moaning


Seriously, THE GOAL IS TO LIMIT ALPHA STRIKES, unilaterally, across all weapon types. That's all the info I know to know that balance is going to suffer.

Johnny Z, on 12 August 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

What can I say. You guys are good at coming up with complete nonsense. Limits on up to 100 point alphas wont hurt the game in any way. Nor will it make balance worse.

There is no possible way that balance can be worse from alpha limits.

Its not nonsense its a fact. If you can't see that, you don't understand the balancing factors at play here. How big of an alpha with lasers do you need to compete with a 20 damage alpha from AC5s?

[Johnny Z]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 August 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Ghost heat style limit on damage to about 30, heat penalty incurred above 30 damage, possible reduction of damage value for spread weapons. That's what has been indicated.

If what they release on the PTS is different, I'm going to attribute that mostly to my bitching and moaning


Seriously, THE GOAL IS TO LIMIT ALPHA STRIKES, unilaterally, across all weapon types. That's all the info I know to know that balance is going to suffer.



Its not nonsense its a fact. If you can't see that, you don't understand the balancing factors at play here. How big of an alpha with lasers do you need to compete with a 20 damage alpha from AC5s?

It can be a lot of lasers because 4 ac 5's is a lot of tonnage and a lot of tonnage of ammo.

Really players have a lot to say on a lot of subjects but pros working on this game for a few years now can figure out the fine details better than any of us.

I'm a really arrogant guy and in order to be so I have to try and be smart. Only stands to reason pros building a game for a few years can figure out the fine details better.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 August 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Johnny Z, on 12 August 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

It can be a lot of lasers because 4 ac 5's is a lot of tonnage and a lot of tonnage of ammo.

Really players have a lot to say on a lot of subjects but pros working on this game for a few years now can figure out the fine details better than any of us.

Lolno.

And your right, it is a lot of lasers. 58 damage worth of lasers to compete with a Black Widow with 4 AC5s. I'm not making this **** up, limiting alphas screws over weapon systems that rely on alphas to be effective.

[Johnny Z]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 August 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

Lolno.

And your right, it is a lot of lasers. 58 damage worth of lasers to compete with a Black Widow with 4 AC5s. I'm not making this **** up, limiting alphas screws over weapon systems that rely on alphas to be effective.

Equal damage of the two systems does not equal effectiveness. Have to admit that.

Both those systems doing equal damage, the lasers come out ahead in effectiveness. This is even before factoring ammo tonnage.

I take back my reply about Alpha limits being impossible to ruin balance though ok.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 August 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 August 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Ghost heat style limit on damage to about 30, heat penalty incurred above 30 damage, possible reduction of damage value for spread weapons. That's what has been indicated.

If what they release on the PTS is different, I'm going to attribute that mostly to my bitching and moaning

Did you achieve that score on a PPC quirked mech against mostly assaults drop? In other word was the sample reliable (I hope 1000+ damage was a consistent picture, not that WHM with PPC is percived as friedndly, but next to dakka KDK-3 guess whos gonna get the bullet)?
Did the system included damage history memory of some specified time (e.g. DPS limit of 6 or so)?
Did the system factored any other damage limit reduction for PPFLD (not increase for spread weapons)?
Was it more limiting to have 22-25 limit (not 30)?
The negative critque as in 'this does not work' is often overlooked as it does not suggest any alternative (NB: other systems proposed on these forums might have technical limitation serverside or devside of which we know nothing). Do you have any other ideas on how to alter this system for it to be at least better than present GH?
I want a good system on the PTS, but I'm not going to be surprised if we will get exactly this limiting system.

[Alistair Winter]

The idea that ballistic weapon such as cannons produce a lot of heat is just ridiculous. Ever sat inside a tank while rapid-firing 100+ mm shells every 3-5 seconds? You know how it gets? Not hot at all. The heat comes out of the barrel of the cannon, you see. Which is handy, because otherwise the people inside the tank would melt.

And don't give me any silly nonsense about the loading mechanism causing massive heat-spikes. Unless it's powered by fire magic, I don't see why loading a new shell should cause any kind of heat, let alone dozens of times as much heat as moving your whole mech at full speed.

It's just balancing space magic. Ballistic weapons should all be as cold as gauss rifles, realistically.