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Please Stop Calling It " Energy Draw " Because It Has Nothing To Do With Energy-Draw.


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#181 pyrocomp

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:09 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 12 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

The idea that ballistic weapon such as cannons produce a lot of heat is just ridiculous. Ever sat inside a tank while rapid-firing 100+ mm shells every 3-5 seconds? You know how it gets? Not hot at all. The heat comes out of the barrel of the cannon, you see. Which is handy, because otherwise the people inside the tank would melt.

And don't give me any silly nonsense about the loading mechanism causing massive heat-spikes. Unless it's powered by fire magic, I don't see why loading a new shell should cause any kind of heat, let alone dozens of times as much heat as moving your whole mech at full speed.

It's just balancing space magic. Ballistic weapons should all be as cold as gauss rifles, realistically.

Does the recoil dampering system on a tank of relatively (to BT) low caliber exist? Just to make sure if you tried to fire dual 8-inch caliber gun (see below) from a tank on the move every 4 seconds (say hello to Boom-Jaeger).
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#182 Alistair Winter

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:17 AM

View Postpyrocomp, on 12 August 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Does the recoil dampering system on a tank of relatively (to BT) low caliber exist? Just to make sure if you tried to fire dual 8-inch caliber gun (see below) from a tank on the move every 4 seconds (say hello to Boom-Jaeger).

The recoil is absorbed by a mechanical contraption that doesn't create any heat at all. Even if the engine is dead, you just need the electrical system switched on to fire the cannon and most of the recoil will be absorbed by the way it's mounted.

The movement of the tank does create heat, but that's from the engine trying to propell 40+ tons of steel through terrain. The amount of heat from a 100+ mm cannon is so insignificant that if your face is 10 cm away from the cannon when it fires, you won't notice any kind of heat at all. Just a wicked shockwave and a loud sound. You can fire every 3 seconds for 5 hours, the only thing that will happen is that you'll run out of ammo. There's no overheating, there are no heat sinks and no real cooling system (although obviously some tanks have air conditioning to operate in warm climates).

In MWO, it's the opposite situation. Moving your mech has barely any impact at all, but firing ballistic weapons (such as the modestly sized AC5) creates an awful amount of heat, potentially overheating the mech.

#183 Johnny Z

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:21 AM

Yep a dual AC 20 Jagermech would be flat on its back. :)

Mechs leaning into firing ballistics would look awesome though.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 August 2016 - 10:24 AM.


#184 DrxAbstract

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:28 AM

View PostDino Might, on 10 August 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

In short, "this had better work."
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Correct me if I'm wrong but don't they both die at the end? ... Foreshadowing, ominous and impending.

#185 Johnny Z

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:30 AM

Thanks for quoting that one I missed it and its hilarious. Posted Image

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 August 2016 - 10:30 AM.


#186 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:37 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 09 August 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Would you prefer if I'll be calling it "useless fkn bandaid" instead?


Yes.

All they need to do is halve the heat limit and actually introduce some negative effects for overheating and they wouldnt need these silly gimmics.

#187 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:41 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 12 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

The idea that ballistic weapon such as cannons produce a lot of heat is just ridiculous. Ever sat inside a tank while rapid-firing 100+ mm shells every 3-5 seconds? You know how it gets? Not hot at all. The heat comes out of the barrel of the cannon, you see. Which is handy, because otherwise the people inside the tank would melt.

And don't give me any silly nonsense about the loading mechanism causing massive heat-spikes. Unless it's powered by fire magic, I don't see why loading a new shell should cause any kind of heat, let alone dozens of times as much heat as moving your whole mech at full speed.

It's just balancing space magic. Ballistic weapons should all be as cold as gauss rifles, realistically.


I've been in an M109A6 firing 155mm shells at about a round every 15 seconds. I can say that ambient temperature it doesn't get hotter in the track, but the metallic surfaces in the track, especially in the turret, get blazing.

But you REALLY don't want to keep firing the weapon at that rate of fire as since the majority of the heat a projectilce weapon using a chemically based propellant uses stays in the barrel and breach mechanism, excess amounts of heat will cause weapon failures.

EDIT:

Would be neat if the ACs in the game had a separate heat bar for the weapon itself, where the hotter it got, the slower it's ROF (cooldown) got and the higher it's jam chance became. That way an AC20 wouldn't possibly overheat your mech.

Edited by Saint Scarlett Johan, 12 August 2016 - 10:45 AM.


#188 DrxAbstract

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:43 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 12 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

The idea that ballistic weapon such as cannons produce a lot of heat is just ridiculous. Ever sat inside a tank while rapid-firing 100+ mm shells every 3-5 seconds? You know how it gets? Not hot at all. The heat comes out of the barrel of the cannon, you see. Which is handy, because otherwise the people inside the tank would melt.

Technically speaking, this is incorrect. If this were true then miniguns, automatic rifles, mortars, etc would not need multiple barrels, cooling jackets, etc. Weapon barrels do get hot because obviously the barrel does absorb some of the thermal energy produced. The difference between a tank cannon and an assault rifle is essentially the rate of fire (Aside from shell size), which in the case of the tank cannon is not high enough to cause heat related issues.


View PostAlistair Winter, on 12 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

It's just balancing space magic. Ballistic weapons should all be as cold as gauss rifles, realistically.

I'd imagine Gauss Rifles produce quite a bit more internal heat than a cannon; Capacitors can get pretty freaking hot in the megajoule range.

But yeah... Balance!

Edited by DrxAbstract, 12 August 2016 - 10:45 AM.


#189 Alistair Winter

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:45 AM

View PostSaint Scarlett Johan, on 12 August 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:


I've been in an M109A6 firing 155mm shells at about a round every 15 seconds. I can say that ambient temperature it doesn't get hotter in the track, but the metallic surfaces in the track, especially in the turret, get blazing.

But you REALLY don't want to keep firing the weapon at that rate of fire as since the majority of the heat a projectilce weapon using a chemically based propellant uses stays in the barrel and breach mechanism, excess amounts of heat will cause weapon failures.

That's really interesting. How many rounds / shells does it have to fire to heat up the surfaces like that?

And yeah, when cannon / artillery barrels get hot, bad things do happen. Not to mention that they get more and more inaccurate as the metal heats up.

#190 Alistair Winter

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:48 AM

View PostDrxAbstract, on 12 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

Technically speaking, this is incorrect. If this were true then miniguns, automatic rifles, mortars, etc would not need multiple barrels, cooling jackets, etc. Weapon barrels do get hot because obviously the barrel does absorb some of the thermal energy produced. The difference between a tank cannon and an assault rifle is essentially the rate of fire (Aside from shell size), which in the case of the tank cannon is not high enough to cause heat related issues.

Fair enough, the heat doesn't disappear out the mouth of the cannon, a lot of heat is transferred to the barrel itself. My point is, not a lot of heat is transferred backwards into the vehicle itself, compared to how things work in MWO. In MWO, even with several tons of dedicated heat sinks (which modern battle tanks / artillery don't have), the entire mech can have heat spikes causing it to explode.

That's crazy.

#191 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:50 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 12 August 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

That's really interesting. How many rounds / shells does it have to fire to heat up the surfaces like that?

And yeah, when cannon / artillery barrels get hot, bad things do happen. Not to mention that they get more and more inaccurate as the metal heats up.


It gets too hot for bare skin at the end of a Fast 15 (15 rounds, 30 seconds between shots, and after every five swabbing out the breach with water to prevent our powder from going off prematurely). It's not OMG 3rd degree burn hot, but "holy shjt, that's hot" after having bare skin rest against it for a second.

#192 Alistair Winter

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:58 AM

View PostSaint Scarlett Johan, on 12 August 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

It gets too hot for bare skin at the end of a Fast 15 (15 rounds, 30 seconds between shots, and after every five swabbing out the breach with water to prevent our powder from going off prematurely). It's not OMG 3rd degree burn hot, but "holy shjt, that's hot" after having bare skin rest against it for a second.

Ah, I can imagine. Well, even though that's more heat than I would have guessed, I still feel comfortable saying that ballistic weapons in MWO are way too hot. Not that it matters, in a game with PPCs and jump jets, but still.

#193 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:58 AM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 12 August 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

Yes.

All they need to do is halve the heat limit and actually introduce some negative effects for overheating and they wouldnt need these silly gimmics.


Deffo. Plus make single heat sinks have double capacity and we'd be golden. But you know ... PGI. Posted Image

#194 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:58 AM

View Postpyrocomp, on 12 August 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

Did you achieve that score on a PPC quirked mech against mostly assaults drop? In other word was the sample reliable (I hope 1000+ damage was a consistent picture, not that WHM with PPC is percived as friedndly, but next to dakka KDK-3 guess whos gonna get the bullet)?

WHM-6R does have PPC quirks yes. It was before the assault event so not a crazy amount of assaults but i'll check the screen shot.

Did the system included damage history memory of some specified time (e.g. DPS limit of 6 or so)?

No but I typically wasn't firing continuously, only 12 DHS with PPCs gets hot. Either way, I know what your thinking and that is a pipe dream invented by certain players who have very high expectations of this system, and PGI has never indicated they are considered limiting DPS, its all about alpha.

Did the system factored any other damage limit reduction for PPFLD (not increase for spread weapons)?

No, but Russ already asserted that ACs will be treated the same as lasers, as Energy Draw is all about damage. There has never been an indication of PPFLD weapons having a lower limit.
Was it more limiting to have 22-25 limit (not 30)?

That would be more limiting yes, I would respond by using the 4 AC5 version. So only one cLPL at a time then? We are really going to go that far?

The negative critque as in 'this does not work' is often overlooked as it does not suggest any alternative (NB: other systems proposed on these forums might have technical limitation serverside or devside of which we know nothing). Do you have any other ideas on how to alter this system for it to be at least better than present GH?

My suggestion is to leave as is and tweak balance. Weapon balance is pretty solid, there are just a few underperformers, Mech balance needs some more thought. Ghost heat makes it so you can't have a huge perfectly synced alpha, and that is good enough for me. I would like to fire 3 PPCs at a time or 3 cER LL at a time without penalty sure, but honestly, I'm pretty happy with how the basic gameplay of the game plays, I just want more balancing, a couple more immersive gamemodes, and some more maps, and of course a worthwhile, immersive faction play.

I want a good system on the PTS, but I'm not going to be surprised if we will get exactly this limiting system.

Good luck.


Edit: Made it easier to read.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 12 August 2016 - 10:59 AM.


#195 Y E O N N E

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 11:16 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 12 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

The idea that ballistic weapon such as cannons produce a lot of heat is just ridiculous. Ever sat inside a tank while rapid-firing 100+ mm shells every 3-5 seconds? You know how it gets? Not hot at all. The heat comes out of the barrel of the cannon, you see. Which is handy, because otherwise the people inside the tank would melt.

And don't give me any silly nonsense about the loading mechanism causing massive heat-spikes. Unless it's powered by fire magic, I don't see why loading a new shell should cause any kind of heat, let alone dozens of times as much heat as moving your whole mech at full speed.

It's just balancing space magic. Ballistic weapons should all be as cold as gauss rifles, realistically.


Realistically, the Gauss rifle should be hotter than conventional guns. :P

#196 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 11:41 AM

maybe we are looking at this wrong,
people are always comparing Lasers needing more Energy to use then ACs,
perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way,

instead of thinking or a AC needing Lots of Energy to Reset after firing,
why dont we look at lasers as if they needed less Energy?

in this case a Laser stores Power and holds the Energy at the Weapon,
so firing a laser woundnt take that much energy and would be balanced to AC energy use?

so instead of a AC needing 10Energy and a Laser needing 50energy,
the AC needs 10, but the Laser has a Battery and only needs 10 to activate,

come on guys im trying to fluff it into working some how,
im grasping at straws(i cant do any more Fluff'icals Capt, im giving ya' all shes got!!!)

#197 pyrocomp

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 12:10 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 12 August 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:


Edit: Made it easier to read.

Not going into details but to clear things, the idea to have more immerisve gameplay, new maps etc. is about prioties and I'm strongly for those things over power draw. But if to limit question to 'leave GH or have this **', I'll go for this, but PTS anyway.
Balance... yes, it's better than it was in the weapons department, but I cannot say that there are few underperforming mechs, to my taste there are a tad to many and mechs are being constantly added.

So, anyway, the test was based on few Russ' twits (however that may sound) and if I remember correctly he was never quite accurate in his statements. Thus, I think that claim that ACs will not be treated as lasers might also be as 'lasers and ACs will be treated alike', so the conclusion 'it's all about alpha' is a little stretched. However with PGI's history of this game development most probably this will boil down to alpha, yes. Still hope, that it does not. And why the heck then a HUD bar-indicator for that thing then?

#198 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:19 PM

View Postpyrocomp, on 12 August 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Not going into details but to clear things, the idea to have more immerisve gameplay, new maps etc. is about prioties and I'm strongly for those things over power draw. But if to limit question to 'leave GH or have this **', I'll go for this, but PTS anyway.
Balance... yes, it's better than it was in the weapons department, but I cannot say that there are few underperforming mechs, to my taste there are a tad to many and mechs are being constantly added.

So, anyway, the test was based on few Russ' twits (however that may sound) and if I remember correctly he was never quite accurate in his statements. Thus, I think that claim that ACs will not be treated as lasers might also be as 'lasers and ACs will be treated alike', so the conclusion 'it's all about alpha' is a little stretched. However with PGI's history of this game development most probably this will boil down to alpha, yes. Still hope, that it does not. And why the heck then a HUD bar-indicator for that thing then?


HUD bar is for transparency, so the user can see what is happening and why the heat spike is greater than normal. Honestly, even if Energy Draw is scrapped, an indicator for when ghost heat is triggered would be welcome!!

Maybe he is wrong, we will see.

And yeah there are a ton of mechs in this game, so naturally many are not too hot right now, which I think is the greatest priority and is not even going to be touched by energy draw, despite some of the hopes that it will. I said there are only a few underperforming weapons, not mechs.

A lot of the issues with mechs come from geometry and lack of quirks. Like the Phoenix Hawk... 45 tonner, HUGE arms, and non-existent weapon quirks make it just meh. But yeah, mech balance would be great, but Energy Draw isn't going to take us there.

#199 pyrocomp

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:29 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 12 August 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

The recoil is absorbed by a mechanical contraption that doesn't create any heat at all. Even if the engine is dead, you just need the electrical system switched on to fire the cannon and most of the recoil will be absorbed by the way it's mounted.

The movement of the tank does create heat, but that's from the engine trying to propell 40+ tons of steel through terrain. The amount of heat from a 100+ mm cannon is so insignificant that if your face is 10 cm away from the cannon when it fires, you won't notice any kind of heat at all. Just a wicked shockwave and a loud sound. You can fire every 3 seconds for 5 hours, the only thing that will happen is that you'll run out of ammo. There's no overheating, there are no heat sinks and no real cooling system (although obviously some tanks have air conditioning to operate in warm climates).

In MWO, it's the opposite situation. Moving your mech has barely any impact at all, but firing ballistic weapons (such as the modestly sized AC5) creates an awful amount of heat, potentially overheating the mech.

Ahem. To clear things.
Firing any projectile base weapons (and to the lesser extent beam weapons) will enevitably rise the recoil problem. Historically the problem was solved by various ways (ignoring was and is the most used one). Anyway, physically, at he moment the barrel becomes pressurised between it's bottom (the lock or plain bottom is irrelevant) and the projectile (via gasses from burning poweder or by oppening a pressure vault in pneumatics, whatever) there is a force (and it is equal or higher due to geometry than the force that pushes the projectile) that pushes the barrel back.

And then there are contraptions.
The simple way is to ignore this and get the weapon mount be hit by a barrel (turret or shoulder whatever). Small caliber and light projectile will allow this. But there is limit to meterial stress resistance. Once you overshoot it, you get a barrel flying backwards from the disintegrating gun (and residual gases jet from a barrel does not help this in any way). This limits the distructive force of weapons and is not the way people do. And MWO shows no impact from the shot on the firing Mech.

The solution to lower the barrel acceleration during the shot was known for long time and is a simple hole in the barrels end. The weapon becomes lethal up close on both ends and dangerous on rear end up to 100-200 m (if memory serves). And it still has recoil (while colled reciolles it still has it albeit on lower scale) and cannot be used in enclosed spaces.

The attempt to eat away recoil ampliude after the shot introduces the recoil dampers and barrel breaks. First contraptions slow the barrel during the shot while accelerating themselves converting a recoil strike to a strong but lower ain force and longer in duration impulse but the momentum is still there (the tank you mentioned earlier didn't remain still, did it?). The second do not exist in MWO (just look on those barrels).

With the recoil damper partiall absorbing kinetic energy (the momentum is conserved anyway) of the barrel you get them heating. Its temperature growth might be low, yes, but is quite noticeble. Now to keep that weapon mostly motionless in BT you will have to counter the force of that recoil push after dampers by Mech movement or whatever contraption (myomer, techs, gnomes, ants, whatever) is there around or in the weapon itself. You have all the prerequsites to fill the blanks for heat produced by those things if you know the scale of mech heat production by its movement as needed force can be aquired from projectile mass and speed.

Yes, the barrel will heat faster and more violently, but it's not that the heat comes only from hot gases heating the barrel that second or two before they vent out of the buisiness end. And effort to keep barrel and its housing still is energy consuming.

#200 pyrocomp

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:48 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 12 August 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:


HUD bar is for transparency, so the user can see what is happening and why the heat spike is greater than normal. Honestly, even if Energy Draw is scrapped, an indicator for when ghost heat is triggered would be welcome!!

Maybe he is wrong, we will see.

And yeah there are a ton of mechs in this game, so naturally many are not too hot right now, which I think is the greatest priority and is not even going to be touched by energy draw, despite some of the hopes that it will. I said there are only a few underperforming weapons, not mechs.

A lot of the issues with mechs come from geometry and lack of quirks. Like the Phoenix Hawk... 45 tonner, HUGE arms, and non-existent weapon quirks make it just meh. But yeah, mech balance would be great, but Energy Draw isn't going to take us there.


The HUD bar-indicator for 'Gost Heat triggered' make little sense as it is more of an 0/1 state indicator. If Russ was correct that it is a bar, not a message or alike, then the quantity such bar represents is not 0/1 but something else (so not just alpha, but something else is factored). If he was inaccurate, then, yes, all may revolve around alpha.
THe HUD indicator like coloring weapon groups around recticle or weapons in the lower right panel in bright red when firing said weapon will trigger GH might be a good thing. But the GH trigger is checked serveside, thus the server must constantly send ticks or states of weapons (in order to bypass packet loss problem, as if the absolutely reliable Mech info systems are a norm for BT) that will lead to the same problem as was with slow convergence - network load. So, I'd say low to no chances. With Power Draw system the indicator probably can have a client side indicator (with server validation) I thnik.

Phoenix Hawk in my list is well below the Orion, but anyway the geometry cannot be fixed easily (quirks of 40-50% scale are... counter-intuitive) and addressing that with bonus on critspace like it was suggested somewhere on this forums is not a good option.





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