521 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Drunken Skull, on 10 August 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

TBH trying to make light mechs good against anything other than other light mechs is a perversion of what the game is meant to be. Light mechs are supposed to be able to deal with infantry, soft vehicle targets such as convoys, light tanks, and hovercrafts, thats what their speed is "supposed" to be used for. NOT for trolling the f**k out of an assault mech to the point the pilot wants to quit.

They r SUPPOSED to die with 1 or 2 LRM volleys or a single hit by a LLSR for this reason. Traditionally a light mech is going to have a fight of it's life if against another LIGHT mech!. Pit it against a medium, heavy, or assault, and it's SUPPOSED to be GAME OVER.

IMO PGI needs to add soft targets for them to go kill, then needs to NERF THE F**K out of their armor so they die like they're supposed to.

No.

This is what you feel things are "supposed to be".

This isn't tabletop Battletech, it's Mechwarrior Online. It's a multiplayer competitive PvP game.

It needs to be balanced. A fundamental design goal from day one (and a necessary one) is that all mechs should be reasonably balanced against each other. Lights cannot be trash or nobody wants to play one.

You may disagree. You may prefer a different design. That doesn't matter, because that's not the design here, and going that route just ensures lights vanish from play entirely.

You can't say "well, just require 3/3/3/3" or some such moronic nonsense, because that doesn't happen. You can't make players play something they don't want to play, they just elect to go elsewhere instead. See: Long Toms. Some feel they SHOULD be dangerously lethal (and there's all sorts of great justification for that, in theory) but in practice, all that means is as soon as Long Toms are obtained, the queues empty and players go do something else instead.


So, the TLDR: Game design must trump how you feel things "should be"; lights must be good enough in combat, because there isn't anything else - and there won't be for a very long time.

[Y E O N N E]

I love how the people like Drunken Skull think it's stupid that Lights can "troll the f**k out of an assault 'Mech to the point the pilot wants to rage quit" but it would be okay if Lights were trolled by everything else. Like, what? That's fundamentally asinine.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 August 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

I love how the people like Drunken Skull think it's stupid that Lights can "troll the f**k out of an assault 'Mech to the point the pilot wants to rage quit" but it would be okay if Lights were trolled by everything else. Like, what? That's fundamentally asinine.

#LightsAreFriendsNotFood
#LightLivesMatter

[Dino Might]

Drunken Skull, on 10 August 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

TBH trying to make light mechs good against anything heavier than other light mechs is a perversion of what the game is meant to be. Light mechs are supposed to be able to deal with infantry, soft vehicle targets such as convoys, light tanks, Helicopters and hovercrafts, thats what their speed is "supposed" to be used for(incidentally that's ALSO what Machine Guns are meant to be used for). NOT for trolling the f**k out of an assault mech to the point the pilot wants to quit.

They r SUPPOSED to die with 1 or 2 LRM volleys or a single hit by a LLSR for this reason. Traditionally a light mech is going to have a fight of it's life if against another LIGHT mech!. Pit it against a medium, heavy, or assault, and it's SUPPOSED to be GAME OVER.

IMO PGI needs to add soft targets for them to go kill, then needs to NERF THE F**K out of their armor so they die like they're supposed to.

Just as a thought exercise, let's suppose we made all the classes work as you see fit. Assaults dominate the battlefield. Heavies and mediums fight some skirmishes. Lights fall over in a strong wind. Then, pray tell, which class would you be using in this new Mechwarrior game. If you say anything but assault, I call bull****. Now, while you may consider this in-line with BT lore, that point is irrelevant (though I contest its veracity). Your idea makes a completely boring and one-dimensional game, where everyone is ultimately running only the biggest mechs out there.

I've seen some ridiculous ideas for how to maintain variety, by making new players start in lights and work their way up. Ideas like that are the only possible way to make it worse than the "lore balance" that you propose.

[WatDo]

People have already covered the point but i wanna restate it in my own words, because i'm tired of my favorite weight class getting unjustified nerf after unjustified nerf.

This isn't Tabletop. Stop with "role warfare". Stop with "infotech will make lights good scouts stop complaining".

This is MechWarrior Online. It's a stompy robot FPS, with "classes". In literally every other FPS game, stompy or not, each "class" can kill any other "class".

Each "class" here has to be fun to play, and has to be combat viable because sitting in the back row, away from the fun fighting, is BORING.

If you told me right now, that i could get a million c-bills per match in my lights, but i wasn't allowed to fight because "lights dont fight"... I'd still take something else because, holy crap guys, infowar is boring. You wanna shoot dudes, i wanna shoot dudes.

Please stop telling me i can't shoot dudes.

Take this silly, "lights are meant to be cannon fodder and nothing more" mentality back to your tabletop games, and let there be actual balance between "classes" here.

Anyway, As far as the cheetah being an exploit... whoever made that statement needs to get some help, they're on the bad drugs. Cheetahs haven't been OP in forever. A fresh one is still a nightmare to fight but... everything fresh should be scary.

I feel that, thanks to the inherent nature of Clan xl engines being crazy powerful, that the cheetah can live a long time when played correctly, but they need no nerfs. OTHER lights should get buffs. Namely in the form of a re-rescale. Take them all back down to "light" sizes. There's no need for a spider to be as tall as an assault and/or as bulky as a heavy.

It's the best light by a long shot. But being the brightest match at the bottom of the sea doesn't mean much, and if they nerf the only other light i can still actually play with some modicum of success, then... goddamnit, i'll just run my srm Awesome all day, every day until i just rage-quit this whole game.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

<-- no bias here. ACH is fine.

[Dino Might]

Cheetahs were OP on release. I remember playing about 10 games in them before I quit because it was actually kind of boring. Since the first nerf, they've been decent, but not spectacular. In their current incarnation, I will willingly fight a cheetah in a Locust (yes, the current version of the Locust, not the one that people waxed idiotic about being OP). I really can't see where the original post about the Cheetah being so OP that it's an exploit is coming from, other than some ridiculous fantasy that no small mechs should ever hurt a bigger one.

As for the never-ending saga of "lights are scouts, because that's how they work in TT," tell me how an Adder with 2 ER PPCs, one of which can one-shot any mech in the game, is all about scouting...

Edited by Dino Might, 10 August 2016 - 07:58 PM.

[Drunken Skull]

Dino Might, on 10 August 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

Just as a thought exercise, let's suppose we made all the classes work as you see fit. Assaults dominate the battlefield. Heavies and mediums fight some skirmishes. Lights fall over in a strong wind. Then, pray tell, which class would you be using in this new Mechwarrior game. If you say anything but assault, I call bull****. Now, while you may consider this in-line with BT lore, that point is irrelevant (though I contest its veracity). Your idea makes a completely boring and one-dimensional game, where everyone is ultimately running only the biggest mechs out there.

I've seen some ridiculous ideas for how to maintain variety, by making new players start in lights and work their way up. Ideas like that are the only possible way to make it worse than the "lore balance" that you propose.

I'd call what we have now "completely boring and one dimensional" because that's what it is. Where are the jump infantry, the Elementals, the vehicles and aircraft? there is a hell of a lot more to Btech than "just mechs", and treating it as such is just a perversion of the game. Machine guns and Flamers have virtually no use against other mechs, because they're meant to dominate over "Soft Targets", as are light mechs. I've actually suggested TWO new game modes, and I've also suggested that there be soft targets, and some form of PVE.

It is just a 1 dimensional TDM game, and thats not Btech, and it's sure as hell not MW. Lets be serious here, as long as PGI keep dragging their feet on adding infantry vehicles and helicopters, as well as catering for these units in their map designs, It doesn't matter how many different game modes they add, it will always be an Arena TDM game mode, as there simply isn't anything in it other than enemy mechs, so will almost always devolve into TDM, regardless of "game mode". Light mechs will always be at the bottom of the pile in this regard.

What makes light mechs better than any other weight class at killing soft targets is their speed. The convoy will reach it's destination well before you can waddle your 100-tonner anywhere near close enough to hurt it. Light mechs have their place in MW and are indispensable, but that place simply doesn't exist in this one dimensional TDM Arena shooter.

I rarely ever use an Assault mech myself. I prefer Heavies, as I like a blend of firepower and maneuverability.

What I would like is PVE/PVP maps/game modes; where there is actually a reason to run a specific weight class of mech(those who have played previous iterations of MW will know what I mean). I might even be able to have actual fun in a light or medium mech then...

Also the cost of warfare has been totally ignored, as it is; every man and his dog can field an Assault if he wants to, Traditionally Assaults are SUPPOSED to be so valuable and rare as f**k, that they are rarely sent into combat except as a last resort. If we had running combat costs and realistic mech prices, and a realistic market that limits availability, this would give more importance to weight classes, as the lighter they are, the cheaper they are to repair or replace.

Making light medium heavy and assault balanced against each other is just making what is allready bland even blander.

Incidentally I think CW should be scrapped completely and thrown away, and be replaced with a Campaign mode, where the running costs and combat damage are carried throughout, and repairs take actual time between matches, just as a traditional TT campaign would be played out. Would be great if the campaign actually had different scenario's that affected the starting conditions of the following scenario, for instance; in one match a Convoy of supplies to a city or base has to be destroyed/protected, and the result is that in the next match where that city/base is put under siege, the defenders get their ammo and spare parts, or not....

Edited by Drunken Skull, 10 August 2016 - 09:15 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Dino Might, on 10 August 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

Just as a thought exercise, let's suppose we made all the classes work as you see fit. Assaults dominate the battlefield. Heavies and mediums fight some skirmishes. Lights fall over in a strong wind. Then, pray tell, which class would you be using in this new Mechwarrior game. If you say anything but assault, I call bull****. Now, while you may consider this in-line with BT lore, that point is irrelevant (though I contest its veracity). Your idea makes a completely boring and one-dimensional game, where everyone is ultimately running only the biggest mechs out there.

I've seen some ridiculous ideas for how to maintain variety, by making new players start in lights and work their way up. Ideas like that are the only possible way to make it worse than the "lore balance" that you propose.

Interestingly, your last paragraph above is something that was an issue when they were initially designing MWO.

Because it was viewed as a crucial design flaw that severely hurt Mechwarrior in all it's incarnations: The notion that you "progressed" through weight classes, and that heavier classes where simply superior to lighter classes.

While that is, essentially, how Battletech works, it's not feasible in an online game.

The reality is that design would results in matches that are 75% assaults, 24% heavies, and 1% other; and it puts people in the position where they simply lose unless they have played enough to get to piloting an assault.

It's a terrible game design, and people suggesting that simply haven't thought their moronic suggestion through.

[DAYLEET]

Mole, on 10 August 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

You realize that lights are in such a bad place right now that 3/3/3/3 cannot be enforced and has not been being enforeced since the rescale because lights are so bad now that there are not enough lights playing to have three of them in every match... right? 3/3/3/3 is not being enforced because the consensus is... that lights suck.

FupDup, on 10 August 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

Yes, they will still suck. Forcing the suck does not eliminate the suck.

Yeonne Greene, on 10 August 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

A shame, then, that 3/3/3/3 is not enforced because the sheer number of people not playing Lights has forced them to not enforce it. Because Lights suck.

Well last event showed, light dont suck, people do.

Ofcourse you can enforce 3/3/3/3, people who want an easy ride in heavies should wait their turn.

Edited by DAYLEET, 10 August 2016 - 08:37 PM.

[Deathlike]

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Well last event showed, light dont suck, people do.

Yes, that's why the Mist Lynx tops the Light swarming charts... oh wait...

[FupDup]

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Well last event showed, light dont suck, people do.

Alwrath, is that you?

The events are a bad way to judge balance anyways, for a variety of reasons. The biggest reason is that it only records your top 10 games, which means that eventually every mech will get the same results if the user plays enough games to get 10 "Goldilocks" matches.

[DAYLEET]

Deathlike, on 10 August 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

Yes, that's why the Mist Lynx tops the Light swarming charts... oh wait...

outliers are great to make a point... oh wait...

it did better than the Commando so the mist lynk must be DeltaTierOne!!1!

All heavy dont equal the TBR or warhammer either.

FupDup, on 10 August 2016 - 08:40 PM, said:

Alwrath, is that you?

The events are a bad way to judge balance anyways, for a variety of reasons. The biggest reason is that it only records your top 10 games, which means that eventually every mech will get the same results if the user plays enough games to get 10 "Goldilocks" matches.

I saw people doing good in lights, its all i needed to see.

Edited by DAYLEET, 10 August 2016 - 08:48 PM.

[FupDup]

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

I saw people doing good in lights, its all i needed to see.

I've seen one specific guy do good in the Awesome...I guess we now have an AWS meta on our hands.

...It could alternatively mean that mech power levels are an entirely separate concept from the skillz level of the player using the mech.

Edited by FupDup, 10 August 2016 - 08:48 PM.

[Tarogato]

ACH broken? no.

ACH overpowered? no.

ACH best light in the game? no.

ACH best light for solo and even group queue, and even CW? definitely yes by a large margin.

If the scaling changes to most of the light mechs were reverted, the ACH would be fine again. It's not that the ACH is too strong now, it's just that all the other good light mechs got nerfed into the ground by the rescale. FS9 is no more, the WLF appears to be pretty much worthless now, even the ADR and RVN grew larger. Also, the SDR and UM took a hit. And good luck playing any IS Jenner that isn't the Oxide (heck, even the Oxides themselves drop like flies now). It's really a sad state of affairs, imo.

[Deathlike]

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

outliers are great to make a point... oh wait...

it did better than the Commando so the mist lynk must be DeltaTierOne!!1!

No, the point is that an event that is literally designed to "benchmark" Lights is not the norm... rather Lights in general are generally scarce and are view very differently from a skill-lens POV.

Arctic Cheetah is at top of the Light charts, but what does it say about the rest of its competition (other Light mechs) when they aren't relevant most of the time?

I mean, we're going to see all Assaults on the battlefield this weekend+ and while we'll see the Awesome (and occasional Pretty Baby sighting), it doesn't mean the Awesome is in a good spot (it's not even seen normally on the battlefield anyways).

[DAYLEET]

Deathlike, on 10 August 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

No, the point is that an event that is literally designed to "benchmark" Lights is not the norm... rather Lights in general are generally scarce and are view very differently from a skill-lens POV.

Arctic Cheetah is at top of the Light charts, but what does it say about the rest of its competition (other Light mechs) when they aren't relevant most of the time?

I mean, we're going to see all Assaults on the battlefield this weekend+ and while we'll see the Awesome (and occasional Pretty Baby sighting), it doesn't mean the Awesome is in a good spot (it's not even seen normally on the battlefield anyways).

What do you want? some mech just cant compete with other mech of their own class and some even all mech ability/stats wise. Cant have everything equal or quirked into oblivion. Outside of competitive play it shouldnt be a problem, take a **** mech with a decent loadout or vice-versa and you can do great in pugs and group too. Competitive players dont want diversity, they maybe think they do but they always isolate what is best to the most inconsequential number, 0.01 will count and eventually they will decide what is best and retire the rest to the mechbay.

[DAYLEET]

FupDup, on 10 August 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

I've seen one specific guy do good in the Awesome...I guess we now have an AWS meta on our hands.

It dont have to be meta, maybe the mech want a restrictive, particular gameplay that few people want to do. The AWS target the 1% !! lol

[Wintersdark]

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

All heavy dont equal the TBR or warhammer either.

No, but the "power bracket" for heavies is far superior to the "power bracket" for lights. Ignore the outliers on both ends of the scale for both classes, and the bulk of heavies is VASTLY superior to the bulk of lights.

Quote

I saw people doing good in lights, its all i needed to see.

Wat? I've seen people do great in everything, that doesn't make everything ok.

Player skill matters more than mech, absolutely, by a large margin. But overall power is still the sum of contributing factors. You can score well in anything in QP simply because your allies suck, or your enemies suck, or you're just lucky and nobody focuses you, or even just pure dumb luck. It's why posting scoreboard results and saying a mech is fine based on that is flatly stupid and only demonstrates how little the poster understands what he's talking about.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

FupDup, on 10 August 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

I've seen one specific guy do good in the Awesome...I guess we now have an AWS meta on our hands.

...It could alternatively mean that mech power levels are an entirely separate concept from the skillz level of the player using the mech.

Who? I have to challenge him!