521 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 10 August 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

Who? I have to challenge him!

I don't think I remember his name though...It might have been something with Davion in it. Hans Davion, maybe? Something like that.

[Deathlike]

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 09:00 PM, said:

What do you want? some mech just cant compete with other mech of their own class and some even all mech ability/stats wise. Cant have everything equal or quirked into oblivion. Outside of competitive play it shouldnt be a problem, take a **** mech with a decent loadout or vice-versa and you can do great in pugs and group too. Competitive players dont want diversity, they maybe think they do but they always isolate what is best to the most inconsequential number, 0.01 will count and eventually they will decide what is best and retire the rest to the mechbay.

The Vindicator is heavily quirked, yet barely competes with its new-at-arms brethren Phoenix Hawk.

Noone is asking for every mech to be a metamech, but when you see a mech relatively gimped... it's usually represented really poorly as well.

You have to look at the entire picture.. not just the little bits like a Light tourney to only see a tiny portion of the story.

[Navid A1]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 10 August 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

FupDup, on 10 August 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

I've seen one specific guy do good in the Awesome...I guess we now have an AWS meta on our hands.

...It could alternatively mean that mech power levels are an entirely separate concept from the skillz level of the player using the mech.

Who? I have to challenge him!

[DAYLEET]

Wintersdark, on 10 August 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

1) Player skill matters more than mech, absolutely, by a large margin.

2) But overall power is still the sum of contributing factors. You can score well in anything in QP simply because your allies suck, or your enemies suck, or you're just lucky and nobody focuses you, or even just pure dumb luck.

3) It's why posting scoreboard results and saying a mech is fine based on that is flatly stupid and only demonstrates how little the poster understands what he's talking about.

1-2) Ok so the pilot is the most important part by a large margin...but not really because your win could be a fluke...

3) Who posted scoreboard result? I said during the event but nothing about the scoreboard, forget the scoreboard or the winners. What the event did was to get very good pilot out of their usual weight class and we got to spectate people with skills that made obvious that lights are way fine if you can pilot them. Regardless, ive spectated very good light pilot before the event too.

Edited by DAYLEET, 10 August 2016 - 09:40 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 10 August 2016 - 08:40 PM, said:

Alwrath, is that you?

The events are a bad way to judge balance anyways, for a variety of reasons. The biggest reason is that it only records your top 10 games, which means that eventually every mech will get the same results if the user plays enough games to get 10 "Goldilocks" matches.

I dont know, with the better statistics that Tarogato compiled for the recent leaderboards, they're pretty spot on for performance of mechs. The Cheetah was the one of the best performers in min/mean/max iirc, just like the HBK-IIC and Nova were at the top of the mediums while the Vindi and Pixie were at the bottom.

[DAYLEET]

Deathlike, on 10 August 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

The Vindicator is heavily quirked, yet barely competes with its new-at-arms brethren Phoenix Hawk.

Noone is asking for every mech to be a metamech, but when you see a mech relatively gimped... it's usually represented really poorly as well.

You have to look at the entire picture.. not just the little bits like a Light tourney to only see a tiny portion of the story.

When you look at the entire picture its obvious why some mech perform badly compared to their brethen. Not much can be done about that beside hitbox tweak or moving hardpoint or even adding hardpoint. Im tired of magical quirks. Anything that isnt lore related should be removed. Then, If a mech get the short end of the stick then so be it.

Then if you say a whole weight class is bad i have to disagree.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

I dont know, with the better statistics that Tarogato compiled for the recent leaderboards, they're pretty spot on for performance of mechs. The Cheetah was the one of the best performers in min/mean/max iirc, just like the HBK-IIC and Nova were at the top of the mediums while the Vindi and Pixie were at the bottom.

Well, remember that the Nova was nerfed since that particular leaderboard.

"Normalization", he wrote.

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

Then if you say a whole weight class is bad i have to disagree.

It's bad when it is consistently the least queued up class, let alone just gathering stats for it would bear that out anyways.

If it was "fine" as people had claimed, there shouldn't need be an event to prove otherwise.

[Johnny Z]

Wintersdark, on 10 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

No.

This is what you feel things are "supposed to be".

This isn't tabletop Battletech, it's Mechwarrior Online. It's a multiplayer competitive PvP game.

It needs to be balanced. A fundamental design goal from day one (and a necessary one) is that all mechs should be reasonably balanced against each other. Lights cannot be trash or nobody wants to play one.

You may disagree. You may prefer a different design. That doesn't matter, because that's not the design here, and going that route just ensures lights vanish from play entirely.

You can't say "well, just require 3/3/3/3" or some such moronic nonsense, because that doesn't happen. You can't make players play something they don't want to play, they just elect to go elsewhere instead. See: Long Toms. Some feel they SHOULD be dangerously lethal (and there's all sorts of great justification for that, in theory) but in practice, all that means is as soon as Long Toms are obtained, the queues empty and players go do something else instead.


So, the TLDR: Game design must trump how you feel things "should be"; lights must be good enough in combat, because there isn't anything else - and there won't be for a very long time.

This right of course. A design goal from the start as far as I know and an excellent move.

[DAYLEET]

Deathlike, on 10 August 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

It's bad when it is consistently the least queued up class, let alone just gathering stats for it would bear that out anyways.

If it was "fine" as people had claimed, there shouldn't need be an event to prove otherwise.

It's the hardest class to play, its the only weight class that i ever felt required skills. Thats different from being bad. You will get less players queuing light because its harder to play a light.

[Deathlike]

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

It's the hardest class to play, its the only weight class that i ever felt required skills. Thats different from being bad. You will get less players queuing light because its harder to play a light.

Yes, except those w/o a clue say otherwise. On the other hand, the comp community views them differently (pretty much in a bad state).

While this is almost comparable to LRMs (except there's no "hold locks plz"), Lights have always been viewed differently dependent on actual skill. The better you are at shooting, the worse off the Light happens to be.

[adamts01]

Not implementing any bit of info warfare after PTS was a serious let down, the much hyped CW3 left me with zero hope for PGI, and the light nerf was the last straw that made me leave. There needs to be a groundbreaking, fundamental re-working of the game to get me back, which won't happen. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Cheetah gets nerfed. I dropped in probably 500 matches in lights since re-scale just to give them a real try, and nope, my favorite weight isn't even close to viable in any scenario outside of quickplay against scrubs. Planetside 2 from now on.

[adamts01]

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

It's the hardest class to play, its the only weight class that i ever felt required skills. Thats different from being bad. You will get less players queuing light because its harder to play a light.

Assuming equal skill, and similar loadouts (brawler vs brawler, sniper vs sniper) the light will lose to absolutely everything else 99/100 times. As fighting is the only real role in this game, I have no problem calling lights bad.

[DAYLEET]

adamts01, on 10 August 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

Assuming equal skill, and similar loadouts (brawler vs brawler, sniper vs sniper) the light will lose to absolutely everything else 99/100 times.

I dont see the point, lights arent brawlers.This isnt a dueling game either.

adamts01, on 10 August 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

As fighting is the only real role in this game,

btw i strongly disagree with that.

Edited by DAYLEET, 10 August 2016 - 10:39 PM.

[YueFei]

DAYLEET, on 10 August 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

I dont see the point, lights arent brawlers.This isnt a dueling game either.

Dude, it gets worse if it's many versus many.

Even if 1 Light mech could always wreck a lone Assault mech in a duel, with perfect pilots in both machines.... that "balance" gets absolutely smashed as soon as it becomes many versus many. The Assault mechs just form a combat box and peel (actually just vaporize) Light mechs off of each other.

[jjm1]

I used to hate them. They seemed to absorb enough firepower to level a city even when standing still. When alpha striking your rear and disappearing into the night to cool down it was down right infuriating.

Now I give that award to the locust. They should be renamed the cockroach because they seem to emerge from the aftermath of nuclear war with barely a scratch on them.

[Drunken Skull]

Lights aren't meant to be "sneak up behind and chew out rear torso armor" mechs. You know what happens if you try that in any other MW or TT Btech game? You get your a$$ handed to you, that's what...

Even in MW4 that kind of behavior was frowned upon by the community(as was the use of ECM), you were considered a troll if you practiced doing it, and it makes me die a little more inside, every time I see PGI advertising it as the "go to" strategy for light mechs. That's simply not what they're for, and pretending it is; just makes it a chore to use them. I want to play to have fun, not practice to "git gud" so much that it becomes as boring as a day job to try and field them successfully.

Light mechs should be used for running down enemy convoys, or tear-assing through enemy space-ports wrecking parked aerospace fighters, quelling riots and insurgents, that sort of thing. If they were used like their supposed to it would be fun to use them. It just simply isn't. You're expected to sneak up behind things multiple times the size and weight of you and expect to hold your own, it's an affront to the reality of the situation.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 10 August 2016 - 11:01 PM.

[iLLcapitan]

wtf

interesting to see how oppinions matter® on twitter and how ****** oppinions lead to quirk dartboards.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 10 August 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

Well, remember that the Nova was nerfed since that particular leaderboard.

I'm aware, just saying that at the particular time, it showed the potential of each mech pretty well.

Drunken Skull, on 10 August 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:

Lights aren't meant to be "sneak up behind and chew out rear torso armor" mechs. You know what happens if you try that in any other MW or TT Btech game? You get your a$$ handed to you, that's what...

Ummm, wtf are you talking about, that is EXACTLY the point of several lights in TT, even some mediums are good at it (Phantom C I'm looking at you). Hell, in the recent Battletech (the game) tech demo they showed off a Commando doing exactly that, something it was meant to do. Lights are not meant as scouts and anti-infantry only, they are also able to abuse initiative with their speed and touch assaults in their naughty bits.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 August 2016 - 10:58 PM.

[Drunken Skull]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 10:55 PM, said:

I'm aware, just saying that at the particular time, it showed the potential of each mech pretty well.


Ummm, wtf are you talking about, that is EXACTLY the point of several lights in TT, even some mediums are good at it (Phantom C I'm looking at you). Hell, in the recent Battletech (the game) tech demo they showed off a Commando doing exactly that, something it was meant to do. Lights are not meant as scouts and anti-infantry only, they are also able to abuse initiative with their speed and touch assaults in their naughty bits.

It's only a valid tactic against someone who is either clueless or already strung out so badly that they can't counter it. Regardless it isn't EXACTLY what they're meant to do, most of them are equipped to deal with anything from infantry to other light mechs. Using them like this is a one-trick pony that's extremely skittish and hard to ride(I don't use lights as it is because I cant be a$$ed with the effort, too much of a chore to be fun). It's also just completely demoralizing to the victim to boot, and my aim in playing is not to ruin the other persons day. TBH I find the use of light mechs in this way to be completely trollish and I won't play an active role in it.

I'm not talking about Hairbraine's new turn-based Btech here, and I think you might be on the wrong forum if you want to continue that line of discussion.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 10 August 2016 - 11:27 PM.

[Kael Posavatz]

Some people are upset that it isn't as useless as the Mist Lynx, under-armed as the Adder, odd as the Kit-Fox, or a blatant IS hero rip-off like the Jenner IIC.