367 replies to this topic

[nitra]

What i find interesting about it, is that we have had numerous assault players pretty well practiced in their assaults mechs. for years.

yet we only have one that is marginally close to the top kodiak score.

i was just expecting a tighter score board and to see the kodiak at 5000+ just made it seem odd that no other assault was really close to that score.



i really dont want to see the Kodiak nerfed either. ( i really dont like nerfings to begin with)


I just think the discrepancy highlights how much more efficient the kodiak is at dealing damage . not even the dire wolf comes close to that score . nor the mauler .

its interesting that the battle master comes closet. as i wouldn't have considered it to be as threatening as the kodiak.

is it the geometry ? that makes it so potent . or is it the weapons just converge really well? or is it really the speed.

i dont know but its obvious the kodiak does have an edge over all other assaults mechs .



Now who would like to see that battlemaster vs that kodiak 1 on 1 in solaris !!??

Edited by nitra, 13 August 2016 - 04:08 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Elizander, on 13 August 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

No pretending to be 'the voice of many' using multiple accounts (padding your point of view/opinion with several posts from yourself to make it sound more valid).

For shame, that never happens on these forums. Your crazy. I'm to lazy to get the tinfoil hat meme out sorry.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 August 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[Johnny Z]

InspectorG, on 13 August 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

It likely means the best Kodiak pilots need to plot the Battlemaster and look for parity. I would wager there is more parity in those hands than most think.

Theres plenty of parity. The edge the Kodiak has is speed. Just like the Timberwolf. I already said that in this topic.

A Kodiak runs into any short range Direwolf/Battlemaster, its match is over quickly. That wall hacks preclude this is another topic all together.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 August 2016 - 04:35 PM.

[dario03]

Stone Wall, on 13 August 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

That's not true on my end. Maybe it has something to do with reduced player population?

I've played 200 games since returning in mid June with a positive KDR and almost 50% W/L ratio. The top Light players on Season 2 have Average Match Scores either the same as mine or not that much higher than twice mine. It's not quite 1 match = Tier 4 and 10 = Tier 3. I also have 64 wins and 50 losses doing nothing but PUGs this season. No clan members to help me out.

Now if I was completely new to MechWarrior, I could understand, but it's been a potato stomping grind.

No he is right. Like I've said before the tier system isn't just based on best scores it is based on being consistent. So even if you get 700dmg 6k6a games here and there it won't matter if you are usually averaging much lower. You especially need to do at least decent on a loss since doing bad on a loss is the only way to move down in PSR.
Also the system gives you more points if you do good on a fresh account or one that hasn't been used since about a year before psr came out. They boost players to try and stop people from making alts to farm the lower tiers. So it is entirely possible to make it to tier 3 in 10 matches, actually last I checked it doesn't even take that long. I've seen tier 3 reached in 5 matches with 2 being losses, and reached in 3 good but not amazing matches, so maybe even 2 if you just do really good and win in your very first matches.
Also while Elo was seperate for each weight class I don't think PSR is.

Edited by dario03, 13 August 2016 - 05:18 PM.

[Baulven]

Does no one else wonder at that top score since there is such a huge margin between 1st and 2nd? Also its 1300 pts between 1st and 10th. Methinks someone is farming potatoes.

[UnofficialOperator]

I think a lot of people are approaching this nerfing/Kodiak OP issue in the wrong way. In my opinion, the Meta is a function of the game mechanics i.e.

1. Map Size
2. Weapon mechanics

If you put an Atlas and a Kodiak in a small room for a brawl, I believe the chances are pretty even or slightly to the advantage of the Atlas with its quirks. Does this mean the Atlas is OP?

The Kodiak or rather ballistics are favored in the current meta/map choices where range combat around the 600 to 800 range seems optimal.

I think unless S3B explains how he did his hi score, you guys can only just speculate. Anyway I think its easy to guess based on the 2k damage screen he put up. I also believe even if you put S3B in another chassis i.e. something like Mauler, he will probably still be placed in the top tier, limited by only the ammo limits of the ballistics that he is carrying.

[Mechteric]

The more assault mechs there are on a field, the more score you can achieve, and mechs that excel against other assault mechs are going to do better here. Those same mechs tend not to do as well against faster enemies (Clan UAC's are notoriously bad against fast movers).


Also, isn't it interesting to see that the Battlemaster is the next highest scoring assault? I didn't see that coming!

[Weeny Machine]

CapperDeluxe, on 14 August 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

The more assault mechs there are on a field, the more score you can achieve, and mechs that excel against other assault mechs are going to do better here. Those same mechs tend not to do as well against faster enemies (Clan UAC's are notoriously bad against fast movers).


Also, isn't it interesting to see that the Battlemaster is the next highest scoring assault? I didn't see that coming!

You are right. You can get higher numbers. However, you would need enormous amounts of damage to explain the point difference of e.g. assaults and lights. The formula of the event takes care of that

[Imperius]

Using leaderboards to buff or nerf mechs shows whoever is asking for buffs or nerfs has no idea what they are talking about.

[Johnny Z]

The Nerf Bat, on 13 August 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Current top Atlas score would put it 36th on the Kodiak leader board.
75 best Kodiak score would be 8th on the Atlas leader boad.

So do you want to buff the Atlas till its in the same neighborhood as the Kodiak
-or-
Do you want to hit the Kodiak with The Nerf Bat?

Well said Nerf Bat.

[Imperius]

Johnny Z, on 14 August 2016 - 05:00 AM, said:

Well said Nerf Bat.

Who are the players of said mechs? How many games have each of them played? How many scores were replaced by the Kodiak to reach the current number? How do you think this is a good representation of performance? Do those atlas pilots only have atlases? Are they normally assault pilots? Do the atlas pilots have Kodiak's? What is my favorite color?

[Hit the Deck]

Regarding the comments above, we can't buff Atlai anymore to be on the same level as the Kodiak (KDK-3). The reason is because the fill different purposes and short ranged Atlai will be forever inferior to 'Mechs with long range capability because it is just so.

[Baulven]

Seriously stop saying NERF THE DAMN KODIAK. The one you all are pissed off about is the KDK3. The other variants aren't getting the numbers the threes are putting up and I want more than a single viable chassis when it's finally released for cbills.

[Trollfeed]

It's very simple why kodiak and battlemaster have so high scores in puglandia leaderboards. Both have variants with closely clustered high hardpoints combined with speed and durability. Stalker would qualify otherwise but its max engine rating is 310 so it's too slow and heavier IS mechs lose too much tonnage to STD engines and XL makes them way too fragile. Direwolf and kodiak are only clan assaults with decent hardpoint placement but direwolf is too slow to stomp faces like kodiak does.

Kodiak is doing better than battlemaster by simply virtue of clan xl and clan UACs. Clan xl means that kodiak is as fast as battlemaster for better durability because it's 15 tons heavier and UAC/10 is propably best weapon system in game at the moment.

Edited by Trollfeed, 14 August 2016 - 06:56 AM.

[pyrocomp]

To speak frankly, the Kodiak is not the top mech and most probably won't be nerfed.

The few top players make it look like that, but the best for average player are Warhawk and Mauller. Take a look at drop-off of the score curves, extrapolate a bit and Kodiak gets to like 7th place somwhere at the hands of 300th ranked player near. The 100 tonners actually make a very tight group there (surprisingly as other weights are reaaly devised). So the Kodiak has its merits, but they are most probably hard to master. Or its buids are less easy to use. Not sure. There is no variant/buid breakdown available.

But. Results of this event show two interesting things. All weights of the assault mechs may do good and are comparable in terms of scoring system presented. Assaults are divided into two unequal groups: 'doing fine' and 'kill me please'. This is even more emphasised if the first 25 players on each chassis are excluded from the sample.



So I'd refrain from saying that Kodiak is really OP. It has something marginally better than other Assaults. What is that something, I cannot tell.


EDIT: typos

Edited by pyrocomp, 14 August 2016 - 06:51 AM.

[xe N on]

Hit the Deck, on 14 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Regarding the comments above, we can't buff Atlai anymore to be on the same level as the Kodiak (KDK-3). The reason is because the fill different purposes and short ranged Atlai will be forever inferior to 'Mechs with long range capability because it is just so.

The problem is that those "Mechs with long range capability" are quite good in brawl too.

Edited by xe N on, 14 August 2016 - 07:12 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Imperius, on 14 August 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

Who are the players of said mechs? How many games have each of them played? How many scores were replaced by the Kodiak to reach the current number? How do you think this is a good representation of performance? Do those atlas pilots only have atlases? Are they normally assault pilots? Do the atlas pilots have Kodiak's? What is my favorite color?

Touche'

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 August 2016 - 07:22 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

pyrocomp, on 14 August 2016 - 06:50 AM, said:

To speak frankly, the Kodiak is not the top mech and most probably won't be nerfed.

The few top players make it look like that, but the best for average player are Warhawk and Mauller. Take a look at drop-off of the score curves, extrapolate a bit and Kodiak gets to like 7th place somwhere at the hands of 300th ranked player near. The 100 tonners actually make a very tight group there (surprisingly as other weights are reaaly devised). So the Kodiak has its merits, but they are most probably hard to master. Or its buids are less easy to use. Not sure. There is no variant/buid breakdown available.

But. Results of this event show two interesting things. All weights of the assault mechs may do good and are comparable in terms of scoring system presented. Assaults are divided into two unequal groups: 'doing fine' and 'kill me please'. This is even more emphasised if the first 25 players on each chassis are excluded from the sample.



So I'd refrain from saying that Kodiak is really OP. It has something marginally better than other Assaults. What is that something, I cannot tell.


EDIT: typos

Ideally, all those curves should converge to a point at infinity. The higher scorers ('Mechs) have naturally more slope.

Anomalies of curves with far greater slope (high standard deviation) could indicate that their players are less competitive with each other or there are simply less people who play those 'Mechs.

It's interesting that there seem to be two distinct groups.

xe N on, on 14 August 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

The problem is that those "Mechs with long range capability" are quite good in brawl too.

Then the weapons should be balanced and not the platform ('Mechs).

[pyrocomp]

Hit the Deck, on 14 August 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

Ideally, all those curves should converge to a point at infinity. The higher scorers ('Mechs) have naturally more slope.

Anomalies of curves with far greater slope (high standard deviation) could indicate that their players are less competitive with each other or there are simply less people who play those 'Mechs.

It's interesting that there seem to be two distinct groups.

Well, I'm not so sure. Those curves asssymptotically go to 0 and it does nothing. There are actually more logical options. Like those curves intersect at same point in the middle: for lower tier one Mech, for high tier another one. - that's dull. Another is to make those curves intersect ach other at a different point and making sure that at some rank range (not sure that this trully reflects skill) there is a best round chassis, thus providing players with a goal to go from chassis to chassis while getting better with assaults. But this requires immence knoweledge of what really is hard (or is counterintuitive) for a player who just jumped into an assault and real variety of mech behaviour within same weight.

[chewie]

Interesting.

Personally, I don't find the Kodiak to be that great.

Its certainly not Overpowered.

What certainly is overpowered as touched on earlier by unofficialoperative, is the ability to modify tied in with the ability to use macros etc.

I'd be interested (though lots of folks wouldn't because it goes against their official modifying code. eg we has it we must do it) to see how any of the mechs in this game would fair in a similar event, where you had to go stock.
And not use macros for your fire control.

THEN you'd see if a particular mech was overpowered or not.

custom builds with macros and other such things will always be OP when the combination is right.

You can't balance the game when the mechanics in play make it inherently unbalanced to begin with.