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Is Vs Clan Weapons Balance?

Balance Weapons

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#21 xe N on

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 11:19 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 15 August 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

Everyone talks about "repeatable huge alphas", but that isn't how it plays out. Even in the hay day of the meta Black Knight. You had two 58 damage alphas, before having to either wait or just shoot your LPLs. While two alphas sounds overwhelming for the BT universe hardcore fans, in reality that is very limiting as this game plays. As anything with dakka can sustain damage out put for much longer than that


The problem with Dakka builds is that you need quite heavy mechs to effectively field enough ACs. That limit Dakka builds to anything above 65 tons (or crazy space magic as the Dragon with 50% AC5 cooldown) and even more for clan Omnimechs because of the usually large XL-engine they carry.

The next problem with Dakka is the face time, you can't twist damage. This makes you somewhat a class cannon in anything below an 85 ton Assault mech. This should be especially the case in team game play with directed fire assist where you can even quite instantly core an assault mech with several alpha strikes from 3 or more team mates.

Most Clan laser builds (should) use Gauss rifles cause of free Clan CASE and because it is a quite cool weapon. Clan Gauss is one of the weapons that is clearly better than the IS version. It can compensate for the high heat from lasers and so you can alpha more often.

Edited by xe N on, 15 August 2016 - 11:29 AM.


#22 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 11:52 AM

View Postxe N on, on 15 August 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:


The problem with Dakka builds is that you need quite heavy mechs to effectively field enough ACs. That limit Dakka builds to anything above 65 tons (or crazy space magic as the Dragon with 50% AC5 cooldown) and even more for clan Omnimechs because of the usually large XL-engine they carry.

The next problem with Dakka is the face time, you can't twist damage. This makes you somewhat a class cannon in anything below an 85 ton Assault mech. This should be especially the case in team game play with directed fire assist where you can even quite instantly core an assault mech with several alpha strikes from 3 or more team mates.

Most Clan laser builds (should) use Gauss rifles cause of free Clan CASE and because it is a quite cool weapon. Clan Gauss is one of the weapons that is clearly better than the IS version. It can compensate for the high heat from lasers and so you can alpha more often.


Since the ER ML range nerg, Gauss vomit builds have lost a significant degree of efficacy.

I know there are downsides with dakka, as there are downsides with everything. But that doesn't change the fact that the upsides are clearly outweighing the downsides for Heavies and Assaults in the current metagame.

#23 Requiemking

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 11:53 AM

View PostMawai, on 15 August 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:


I agree that balance isn't too bad at the moment. However, need to keep in mind that this balance includes the sets of IS quirks ... so the clan weapons still probably have an edge at the moment.

Addressing the OPs comments, I've played both IS and clan though not much FW. Not long ago, there was a large complaint that IS ERLL were OP in FW when combined with IS range quirks ... so all the IS range quirks were nerfed leaving a maximum of 10% on some mechs. Since then, there haven't been the usual loud complaints associated with a general imbalance.

As for range/burn time/damage ... clan weapons still deliver a higher alpha. For lasers these require a longer burn time on target. Against slower or stationary mechs this makes them very effective. The extreme long range of clan ERLL makes them semi-useful for long range poking ... but I personally don't use them since I don't like the long burn times. On the other hand, the clan LPL has range, damage and shorter burn time making it a more flexible and popular choice. Finally, the clan ERML is still one of the best weapons in the game for the mix of damage, range, weight and slots.

Anyway, in my opinion and experience, the overall balance isn't too bad. Clan weapons still have an edge over IS in general that is compensated for by IS quirks.

What does need addressing in my opinion are the outlier mechs ... if you take a look at the leaderboard events then it is clear that certain mechs achieve a significantly higher average score than others in their weight class. Since these numbers are accumulated over the top 75 pilots for each mech and the leaderboard tallies the ten best results for each pilot ... the numbers then indicate the best achievable result range for that particular mech over a wide range of players.

Based on the current average numbers from the assault event. The Kodiak is OP being more than 15% better than any other assault (3500 vs 3050 for Direwolf which is second) and MORE than 50% better than the lowest ranking assault (Victor at 2125).

Victor, Highlander and Zeus need a buff and the Kodiak needs a significant nerf,

Yes, Clans deliver a high alpha, but when that damage is easier to spread, it really negates that advantage. Case in point, Autocannons.

IS ACs are heavier and have shorter range, but are actually more accurate at longer ranges due to them firing a single slug. Clan ACs (Yes, including UACs) may have a longer range, but are less accurate at range due to Burst-fire, which once again, negates the range advantage. It's like comparing an IS AC10 and an IS LB10X AC. Sure, the LB10X has a longer range, but due to spread it is less accurate over that range.

It is a similar situation with Lasers. Clan lasers have greater range, but the increased duration means that it is easier to mitigate damage. This pretty much makes the range increase pointless, since if you want to be efficient you have to be able to focus your damage, which is significantly harder with Clan lasers.

Clan missiles also get the shaft as well. Thanks to Stream-fire, Clan LRMS are actually easier for AMS to destroy, and Clan SSRMs are only really useful on a few chassis. Clan SRMs are powerful, but once again require a specialised chassis to really work with. For example, Above someone mentioned the Jenner IIC was one of the best Clan Lights. It really is not due to the rescale and the fact that the thing is pretty much a quirkless CT on legs. I would much rather take an SRM24 Adder over a Jenner IIC any day.

As for your ponit about the Kodiak leaderboard, how much do you want to bet that most if not all of the players on it are using Kodiak 3s?

#24 Y E O N N E

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 01:27 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 15 August 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:


If the community and PGI are worried about TTK, if anything they should be moving the laser durations up, starting with IS MPLs and LPLs.


I've thought about that myself, but I do not believe that is workable in the presence of PPC+dakka. Long burn lasers cannot compete with 30-35 PPFLD; they already don't do so well.

And if you lengthen the isMPL, it has nothing to offer whatsoever. The isLPL, and I might as well take a Clan 'Mech with cMPL or cLPL. Everything must go up if this is what we want...except maybe isSL, which would remain terrible anyway.

#25 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 01:30 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 15 August 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

I've thought about that myself, but I do not believe that is workable in the presence of PPC+dakka. Long burn lasers cannot compete with 30-35 PPFLD; they already don't do so well.

And if you lengthen the isMPL, it has nothing to offer whatsoever. The isLPL, and I might as well take a Clan 'Mech with cMPL or cLPL. Everything must go up if this is what we want...except maybe isSL, which would remain terrible anyway.


I know I know.. I just think that asking for shorter durations is going to be met with stiff resistance.

#26 burning wisky

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 07:07 AM

new stuff online ...... lot of changes happend.

I play both sides in Faction as a MERC.

1) IS heavy Gauss no minimum Range (LORE), why not ?
( my idea / Lore minimum range, but 600 opi.range and max.range 1200 )

2) Why not the Clan PPC back to real 15 damage and not 10 + 5 splash ?
( IS have high pointdamge weapon on the board ( Heavy PPC and Heavy gauss )

3) IS can fire max 6 M laser + 6 small laser + 3 l laser (i know some IS mech have max. 9 laser slots ) with no heatpenalty !!!
Claner not more than 6 M laser or small laser + 2 L laser ( the warhammer IIC ownly 6 m laser or small ) Why ?
I know the Damg and range is higher on clan, but the heat as well.

4) IS can fire 3 L Laser with no heatpenalty !!!
Claners ownly 2 L Laser !!!
( the higher clan range will eaten by the Range quirk, and at the end IS have 1 L Laser more )

Mayby time for a rebalance ?

Edited by burning wisky, 04 March 2019 - 08:37 AM.


#27 Antares102

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 07:11 AM

Is necroing threads becoming the new forum behaviour?

#28 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 07:13 AM

View PostY E O N N E, on 15 August 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

I've thought about that myself, but I do not believe that is workable in the presence of PPC+dakka. Long burn lasers cannot compete with 30-35 PPFLD; they already don't do so well.

And if you lengthen the isMPL, it has nothing to offer whatsoever. The isLPL, and I might as well take a Clan 'Mech with cMPL or cLPL. Everything must go up if this is what we want...except maybe isSL, which would remain terrible anyway.

The thing people never thing about with laser is burn time also effects DPS as well as accuracy. The sooner a laser stop firing the faster it can start the cooldown and be ready to fire another time.

#29 Grus

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 07:13 AM

Dang necro from 2016? Nice.

#30 R Valentine

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 07:16 AM

No go on clan laser duration, since their total damage is already higher. And I'm fine with the dakka as is because IS dakka weighs so much more. They finally nerfed the cERML's damage, which was probably the biggest offender in the clan lineup. 1 ton for 7 damage with a GH of 6 and a range of 400m was just absurd. I think the only other outlier is ATMs, since there is no IS counterpart and since their damage potential is so immense. The fact that they fit so well on poptart mediums only adds to the problem, but even assaults packing 4x ATM12 is obnoxious.

#31 Grus

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 07:57 AM

View PostKiran Yagami, on 04 March 2019 - 07:16 AM, said:

No go on clan laser duration, since their total damage is already higher. And I'm fine with the dakka as is because IS dakka weighs so much more. They finally nerfed the cERML's damage, which was probably the biggest offender in the clan lineup. 1 ton for 7 damage with a GH of 6 and a range of 400m was just absurd. I think the only other outlier is ATMs, since there is no IS counterpart and since their damage potential is so immense. The fact that they fit so well on poptart mediums only adds to the problem, but even assaults packing 4x ATM12 is obnoxious.


Cough* MRM's *cough*

#32 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 08:01 AM

View PostGrus, on 04 March 2019 - 07:57 AM, said:

Cough* MRM's *cough*

MRM are really nice that's for sure. If a IS mech was one missile hard point they can add MRM 30 or 40 and that's way more effective then a single ATM launcher. The new Warhammer IIC that was given for free demonstrate that. Be so much happier with MRM launcher in that hard point then 1 ATM launcher.

#33 Bud Crue

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 08:16 AM

View PostSirSmokes, on 04 March 2019 - 08:01 AM, said:

MRM are really nice that's for sure. If a IS mech was one missile hard point they can add MRM 30 or 40 and that's way more effective then a single ATM launcher. The new Warhammer IIC that was given for free demonstrate that. Be so much happier with MRM launcher in that hard point then 1 ATM launcher.


But at the same time a single ATM12 fired at the same sort of ranges one typically fires an MRM 40 is doing similar damage, yes? Plus the ATM can still be fired at extreme range if need be with the benefit of lock on at the cost of minimum range. Both MRMs and ATMs have their charms, and for my money and as a casual, I find it is much easier to have crazy good games running ATMs than with MRMs, though MRMs are more consistent.

It would be intriguing to have the option to try MRMs on clan mechs and ATMs on IS mechs (maybe on a stream where Paul messes with values or something?). I wonder how a ATM24 with tag would play on an IV-4 or even a Griffin 2N, maybe a ATM36 Catapult (oh look an ATM Atlas), or on the other side an MRM160 MKII or Supernova or something.

(No I am not advocating “mixed-tech”, but rather a one off “I wonder” how silly this could get exercise).

#34 Grus

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 08:19 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 04 March 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:


But at the same time a single ATM12 fired at the same sort of ranges one typically fires an MRM 40 is doing similar damage, yes? Plus the ATM can still be fired at extreme range if need be with the benefit of lock on at the cost of minimum range. Both MRMs and ATMs have their charms, and for my money and as a casual, I find it is much easier to have crazy good games running ATMs than with MRMs, though MRMs are more consistent.

It would be intriguing to have the option to try MRMs on clan mechs and ATMs on IS mechs (maybe on a stream where Paul messes with values or something?). I wonder how a ATM24 with tag would play on an IV-4 or even a Griffin 2N, maybe a ATM36 Catapult (oh look an ATM Atlas), or on the other side an MRM160 MKII or Supernova or something.

(No I am not advocating “mixed-tech”, but rather a one off “I wonder” how silly this could get exercise).
a atm shot beyond 500m is a waste of a shot and ammo.

#35 R Valentine

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 08:20 AM

View PostGrus, on 04 March 2019 - 07:57 AM, said:

Cough* MRM's *cough*


MRMs have good damage farm, but they don't melt people like ATMs do. The fact that ATMs are lock on and just that much easier to connect with doesn't help either. I've never felt threatened by MRM mechs, since the damage is so easy to twist, especially with MRM30+ because the stream itself is so long. I see ATMs and I know it's going to hurt. More damage per missile means a higher damage concentration, and since that poptart Vapor Eagle doesn't really have to aim he can get away with a lot more motion than I can trying to return fire. MRMs still take effort to connect with.

#36 Grus

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 08:26 AM

View PostKiran Yagami, on 04 March 2019 - 08:20 AM, said:


MRMs have good damage farm, but they don't melt people like ATMs do. The fact that ATMs are lock on and just that much easier to connect with doesn't help either. I've never felt threatened by MRM mechs, since the damage is so easy to twist, especially with MRM30+ because the stream itself is so long. I see ATMs and I know it's going to hurt. More damage per missile means a higher damage concentration, and since that poptart Vapor Eagle doesn't really have to aim he can get away with a lot more motion than I can trying to return fire. MRMs still take effort to connect with.


Buy a IV Four and call me in the morning...

#37 R Valentine

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 08:33 AM

View PostGrus, on 04 March 2019 - 08:26 AM, said:

Buy a IV Four and call me in the morning...


Got it. Good damage farm. Still won't melt people like a Vapor Eagle. There is no comparison between ATMs and MRMs. MRMs are the natural extension of the SRM. Still dumb fire, but slightly longer range, longer stream, but less damage per missile. ATM's aren't the natural extension of anything. They share nothing in common with other missiles. The arc is shallower than LRMs, but more than SSRMs, and have a damage variance based on range that has extreme fall off cliffs. There's nothing else like it.

#38 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 09:02 AM

View PostKiran Yagami, on 04 March 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:


Got it. Good damage farm. Still won't melt people like a Vapor Eagle. There is no comparison between ATMs and MRMs. MRMs are the natural extension of the SRM. Still dumb fire, but slightly longer range, longer stream, but less damage per missile. ATM's aren't the natural extension of anything. They share nothing in common with other missiles. The arc is shallower than LRMs, but more than SSRMs, and have a damage variance based on range that has extreme fall off cliffs. There's nothing else like it.

I think were MRM beat ATM is pin point. I don't disagree with you about ATM vs MRM but were the MRM beat the ATM is I can aim my damage. You can do a lot of damage to a mech and not kill it or do less more accurately and kill it fast. Damage is not everything all the time.

#39 Grus

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 09:05 AM

View PostKiran Yagami, on 04 March 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:


Got it. Good damage farm. Still won't melt people like a Vapor Eagle. There is no comparison between ATMs and MRMs. MRMs are the natural extension of the SRM. Still dumb fire, but slightly longer range, longer stream, but less damage per missile. ATM's aren't the natural extension of anything. They share nothing in common with other missiles. The arc is shallower than LRMs, but more than SSRMs, and have a damage variance based on range that has extreme fall off cliffs. There's nothing else like it.


Ok, so I'll ask, why am I not having and issues dealing with the atm VE boats and everyone else is?

#40 Lily from animove

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 09:10 AM

View PostGrus, on 04 March 2019 - 08:26 AM, said:



Buy a IV Four and call me in the morning...


can you record that encounter?





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