67 replies to this topic

[VonBruinwald]

Angel of Annihilation, on 04 March 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

Way too many of the omnimechs are over-engined to the n'th degree and just don't have the capacity to boat the DHS required to get that crazy dissipation your mentioning. Hell I might even accept a bit less raw damage if we could get the heat levels down to point where I could actually fire my guns rather than standing around cooling all the time

The solution is simple. Remove some lasers and add some more sinks...

Except people don't, they want to take the biggest alpha they can then complain they're getting hot. Take the classic 2HLL,4ERML Hellbringer with 25dubs you switch one of those HLL for an ERML and a trio of dubs and your sustainable DPS jumps up 12%. That means less time cooling and more time shooting.

You have a choice, DPS or Alpha, you can't have it both ways.

[VulcanXIV]

Angel of Annihilation, on 04 March 2019 - 05:49 PM, said:

Your talking about a few of the top meta Clan mechs. I am talking about Clan mechs in general. Also most of the really top end Clan mechs are Dakka heavy and honestly I don't have an issue with the current balance numbers for Clan Dakka. I do have issues with the current numbers for energy weapons and possible missile weapons though I haven't explored missiles fully to make that statement yet.

Overall what I think needs to be done is PGI needs to look hard at the heat values for Clan energy weapons and dial the heat back a bit on most of them by maybe 10-20% give or take, maybe look at Missile but leave the Ballistics the same. Second they should seriously look at Clan agility and mobility figures and on anything but the top meta Clan mechs, adjust the values up a bit across the board just to give them something approaching the average IS numbers, basically make them more fun to pilot. Then lastly, seriously look at the underperforming Clan mechs and start giving them the IS treatment in terms of quirks.

Seriously though, they heat is just choking the life out of many clan mechs. Way too many of the omnimechs are over-engined to the n'th degree and just don't have the capacity to boat the DHS required to get that crazy dissipation your mentioning. Hell I might even accept a bit less raw damage if we could get the heat levels down to point where I could actually fire my guns rather than standing around cooling all the time and I would like to stop moving around like I am in molasses just because I want to play a Clan mech.

Edit: I forgot to summarize this for those who don't like to read.

Heat Bad. Sluggish Bad. Make less hot, make less sluggish, then Clan mech Good.

I always kind of wonder why so many people have a list of complaints for Clan mechs despite them being already so abysmally strong...:\ I guess you kind of sum it up though: They're not fun.

Still obscenely strong though.

[El Bandito]

VonBruinwald, on 04 March 2019 - 06:24 PM, said:

The solution is simple. Remove some lasers and add some more sinks...

Careful, you are talking too much sense.

[Sjorpha]

Angel of Annihilation, on 04 March 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

The point is just how much more heat Clan weapons generate to produce the same potential damage as IS weapons.

It may be your point, but you're just plain wrong about it.

For the typical equivalent loadouts, for example Ebon Jaguar VS Top Dog midrange laservomit or Clan vs IS assault Dakka boats etc etc the clan versions typically have superior sustained DPS as well as a small range and alpha advantage, with the IS mech having a duration (accuracy) and slight burst DPS advantage (over 2-3 alphas) and sometimes stronger quirks.

And this is also disregarding the speed or cXL vs ISXL advantages those clan mechs also have over the IS counterparts, to make the comparison actually fair you should also demand similar speed and ST loss survivability (LFE) on all IS builds in the comparison. And if you do that you're not getting anywhere near the heat efficiency and /or damage output of the clan mechs.

If you're not comparing the best builds for a specific tonnage, weapon type and range bracket you're just not making a relevant comparison. And the truth is clan mechs and clan tech is generally stronger than IS in MWO, the recent heatscale changes were already a buff to the sustained DPS of clan with their easy-to-boat cDHS, the last thing clan mechs need is an even bigger heat advantage.

Simply put, Clan mechs aren't hotter than IS mechs for equivalent ranges and damage output. They just aren't, and they never were, it's just a popular myth that's been echoing through the forums over the years.

Edited by Sjorpha, 05 March 2019 - 01:19 AM.

[VulcanXIV]

Sjorpha, on 05 March 2019 - 01:14 AM, said:

It may be your point, but you're just plain wrong about it.

For the typical equivalent loadouts, for example Ebon Jaguar VS Top Dog midrange laservomit or Clan vs IS assault Dakka boats etc etc the clan versions typically have superior sustained DPS as well as a small range and alpha advantage, with the IS mech having a duration (accuracy) and slight burst DPS advantage (over 2-3 alphas) and sometimes stronger quirks.

And this is also disregarding the speed or cXL vs ISXL advantages those clan mechs also have over the IS counterparts, to make the comparison actually fair you should also demand similar speed and ST loss survivability (LFE) on all IS builds in the comparison. And if you do that you're not getting anywhere near the heat efficiency and /or damage output of the clan mechs.

If you're not comparing the best builds for a specific tonnage, weapon type and range bracket you're just not making a relevant comparison. And the truth is clan mechs and clan tech is generally stronger than IS in MWO, the recent heatscale changes were already a buff to the sustained DPS of clan with their easy-to-boat cDHS, the last thing clan mechs need is an even bigger heat advantage.

Simply put, Clan mechs aren't hotter than IS mechs for equivalent ranges and damage output. They just aren't, and they never were, it's just a popular myth that's been echoing through the forums over the years.

I kinda wanted to point things out like you did, but the fact of the matter is I only have second-hand information and don't play clan at all for me to call BS. After all, he was basically picking every single possible downside a clan mech could possibly have (which as we know, still aren't enough to make them balanced with IS, they're still strong AF) and calling for them to be buffed...for the sake of fun? :\

At that point I wanted to call BS but like I said I don't play Clan so I can't rebel. Doesn't take much to know these things though

[Angel of Annihilation]

VonBruinwald, on 04 March 2019 - 06:24 PM, said:

The solution is simple. Remove some lasers and add some more sinks...

Except people don't, they want to take the biggest alpha they can then complain they're getting hot. Take the classic 2HLL,4ERML Hellbringer with 25dubs you switch one of those HLL for an ERML and a trio of dubs and your sustainable DPS jumps up 12%. That means less time cooling and more time shooting.

You have a choice, DPS or Alpha, you can't have it both ways.

So I should further reduce my ability to be competitive by removing weapons. Yeah that makes no sense. Also you say DPS or Alpha, I can't have it both ways, Well in my example, my build had 2xHLL and 5x MPL, that is only a 64.5 alpha on a 80 on mech and I was comparing it against Zeus at the same tonnage with a 62 point Alpha. Where is my ungodly alpha oh wait my Warhammer IIC build must be a DPS build then right? But wait, I am at 78% heat on a single alpha and the Zues beats it in every way from a DPS standpoint. Hmmm......seems something is wrong here because I don't have Alpha going for me and I don't have DPS going for me either. That is my point, aside from the top meta mechs in the Clan line up, generally speaking I don't have Alpha or DPS, all I have is a hot mess, pun intended.

[Grus]

Angel of Annihilation, on 05 March 2019 - 10:26 AM, said:

So I should further reduce my ability to be competitive by removing weapons. Yeah that makes no sense. Also you say DPS or Alpha, I can't have it both ways, Well in my example, my build had 2xHLL and 5x MPL, that is only a 64.5 alpha on a 80 on mech and I was comparing it against Zeus at the same tonnage with a 62 point Alpha. Where is my ungodly alpha oh wait my Warhammer IIC build must be a DPS build then right? But wait, I am at 78% heat on a single alpha and the Zues beats it in every way from a DPS standpoint. Hmmm......seems something is wrong here because I don't have Alpha going for me and I don't have DPS going for me either. That is my point, aside from the top meta mechs in the Clan line up, generally speaking I don't have Alpha or DPS, all I have is a hot mess, pun intended.

I'll use my mad2c as an example if you dont need to use all hardpoints to be effective. 2lpl6mpl. Works VERY well. #itsnotallaboutthealpha

[VonBruinwald]

Angel of Annihilation, on 05 March 2019 - 10:26 AM, said:

So I should further reduce my ability to be competitive by removing weapons.

That depends what you consider competitive. If you're doing nothing but trading alpha. yeah, it's less competitive. But in a situation where you're required to push or being pushed having a higher sustainable DPS is more desirable. If you consider Alpha the primary mode of competitive play and someone pushes you into a DPS battle and cores you, that just means you got outplayed because they forced you to fight in a situation where they had the advantage.

Can you do us a favour and post the smurfy's for your Whammy and Zeus. You're talking about specific builds which nobody else can see.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 05 March 2019 - 11:32 AM.