75 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Assaults are already beastmode on the PTS when equipped with PPC, Gauss, and/or dakka builds. They aren't weak or in need of help.

Assaults with more energy sounds cool on paper, but in-game it would break things.

Biggest issue is this test is still not a real test. A 12 v12 match atleast half the team will focus on the assault mech. Basically 1 hit of focus fire and it will die.

When we did the past pts when it was 2v2 it was the same way, assaults were killing everyone but we know this isn't the case in real matches.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 19 August 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

In that case, my original comment still stands: ballistics will reign.

And so does mine: they already do.

Though I feel that you are forgetting that lasers don't spike heat like PPCs.

[draiocht]

[mod]This thread has been moved to Energy Draw Public Test.[/mod]

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Assaults are already beastmode on the PTS when equipped with PPC, Gauss, and/or dakka builds. They aren't weak or in need of help.

Assaults with more energy sounds cool on paper, but in-game it would break things.

What if I don't want to run PPC Gauss or dakka builds on my assaults?

But seriously.. 2 UAC10s is very limited by this system. Double tap incurs penalty, let alone combining it with other weapons. So MAD-IIC with 2 UAC10s with lasers or peeps? Nope. What about 3 UAC5s with lasers or peeps? Nope. They will both require too much staring.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

What if I don't want to run PPC Gauss or dakka builds on my assaults?

But seriously.. 2 UAC10s is very limited by this system. Double tap incurs penalty, let alone combining it with other weapons. So MAD-IIC with 2 UAC10s with lasers or peeps? Nope. What about 3 UAC5s with lasers or peeps? Nope. They will both require too much staring.

2 Gauss and an ERPPC/LPL will be fine though because it is cool enough to begin with the penalty is negligible, and since Gauss don't have charge up anymore....so the Mad IIC isn't dead in the water at least.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 August 2016 - 08:26 AM.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

What if I don't want to run PPC Gauss or dakka builds on my assaults?

But seriously.. 2 UAC10s is very limited by this system. Double tap incurs penalty, let alone combining it with other weapons. So MAD-IIC with 2 UAC10s with lasers or peeps? Nope. What about 3 UAC5s with lasers or peeps? Nope. They will both require too much staring.

At that point it becomes a problem of either the global cap being too low or some individual weapon energies being too high (I lean towards the latter) rather a problem with assault mechs.

Ultras in general cause some derping of the system, especially the Ultra 20 (Ghost Heats itself).

Weapons like SRMs and lasers really do need lower power requirements.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 August 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

2 Gauss and an ERPPC/LPL will be fine though because it is cool enough to begin with the penalty is negligible, and since Gauss don't have charge up anymore....so the Mad IIC isn't dead in the water at least.

Yeah to hell with variety right?

That's probably a solid Night Gyr build as well btw.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 August 2016 - 08:29 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 August 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

That's probably a solid Night Gyr build as well btw.

It will be, and it can semi poptart, still not as good as the HBK-IIC-A or BJ-3 though.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 August 2016 - 08:31 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

Weapons like SRMs and lasers really do need lower power requirements.

Mein gotte, that is one of the most bass-ackward things I have read all week..

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 August 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Mein gotte, that is one of the most bass-ackward things I have read all week..

Maybe I should have worded it as "gigher damage cap" instead, because 30 spread damage is inferior to 30 PPFLD damage.

This whole energy/power draw thing is just a damage cap, don't take it so seriously.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

Maybe I should have worded it as "gigher damage cap" instead, because 30 spread damage is inferior to 30 PPFLD damage.

This whole energy/power draw thing is just a damage cap, don't take it so seriously.

No, no, I got it, it's just that it is so unintuitive that it blows the mind.

If they ditched energy and went with a low cap / high dissipation heat system, many of the problems we are now seeing would self-correct with minor adjustments to weapon heat and/or velocity, including:

• too much spike on duration weapons
• overly frequent heavy energy alphas
• DPS being too sustainable
• ridiculous boats (i.e. 5xLPL)

Way, way simpler.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

No, no, I got it, it's just that it is so unintuitive that it blows the mind.

If they ditched energy and went with a low cap / high dissipation heat system, many of the problems we are now seeing would self-correct with minor adjustments to weapon heat and/or velocity, including:

• too much spike on duration weapons
• overly frequent heavy energy alphas
• DPS being too sustainable
• ridiculous boats (i.e. 5xLPL)

Way, way simpler.

The issue with that is PGI's stance on the heat system. Specifically, they don't want fast cooling rates because:

Paul, in ATD #43 said:

Answer from Paul: There are no current plans to change the heat threshold towards TT values. Are we hard set against it? No, just at the moment there’s no need to do this.

Playing with a higher rate of cooling makes a lot more builds become heat neutral. A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

Basically, PGI wants all mechs (except maybe Gauss or AC boats) to run hot all the time no matter what.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

Basically, PGI wants all mechs (except maybe Gauss or AC boats) to run hot all the time no matter what.

That's what quirks SHOULD be for, mechs with low heat spammable weapons should have a naturally lower dissipation rate than energy boats while pure energy boats should have higher dissipation rates while both should have lower capacities.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 19 August 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

The issue with that is PGI's stance on the heat system. Specifically, they don't want fast cooling rates because:


Basically, PGI wants all mechs (except maybe Gauss or AC boats) to run hot all the time no matter what.

Doesn't compute, we already have builds so cold that by the time the heat becomes non-trivial, I have already flattened three targets all by myself.

Besides, the new mechanic allows this, too.

Why should Paul worry about a pair of MedLas or SRM4 being heat neutral...they still wouldn't be effective.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 August 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

Why should Paul worry about a pair of MedLas or SRM4 being heat neutral...they still wouldn't be effective.

Because such mechs would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral mechs, duh.

[Trauglodyte]

Lyoto Machida, on 18 August 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Well, we don't have stock engine limits but engine limits are based on stock engine sizes so it still sort of applies. A slow mech in TT is still a slow mech here for the most part.

But, it is still wrong. The Jenner could only go 118 kph where as the Cicada was supposed to go 129.6 kph. This isn't exactly the same thing that we have in MW:O, is it?