25 replies to this topic

[AnTi90d]

OK, I watched about five hours of Twitch streamers testing the system and spent several hours testing it, myself, both in the Testing Grounds and in live matches. With confidence, I say:


P D is going to encourage even more peek/poke and kill brawling.


SRM/AC20/MPL brawling is right out. You don't facetank/chainfire in a brawl.. you alpha and twist. Now, alphastriking in a brawl is right out, as you want to keep going and not take on unnecessary heat which leads to overheating / shutting down. The alpha limit virtually prevents this.



But.. what if we increase the alpha limit of heavy/assault mechs?

No. Do not do this. This will encourage even more long ranged poke builds. Currently, you can build up to 7 LL/LPL or 6 PPC mechs that can peek - alphastrike - hide - cooldown.



Well, what if we increase the heat penalty?

No. Do not do this. That will hurt brawling even more.. and peek/poke builds won't mind, as they're sniping and then hiding, anyway.



We can adjust individual weapon P D multipliers..

No. The point of P D was to make the system easier to understand. Adding more complications to the system defeats its purpose.



Well, how do we increase TTK / maintain weapon diversity in an easy to understand system?

Modify the existing Ghost Heat system instead of building a whole new system.

* Link more weapons together to eliminate holes in the current system. MDLAS and MPLAS should be linked just like LL and LPL are. Maybe link AC5/AC10.. (AC10 could count as two AC5..) maybe link AC5/PPC.. (PPC could count as two AC5..) maybe link all large and medium lasers.. (large lasers could count as two medium lasers..) All of this could be clearly explained in tooltips..

* Write more tooltips to be displayed in the Mechlab. The existing tooltips tell you that you shouldn't fire more than 3LL/LPL at a time. People will say, "but it gives new players no indication of just how much heat they're being penalized." That is not a valid argument. They are free to test mechs out in the Testing Grounds and see for themselves. After a few days of playing, the amount of extra heat you get is predictable.

* Keep or even increase the new weapon cooldown values. Maybe even completely remove the cooldown modules. That directly raises TTK. We don't need a whole new convoluted and overly complex system to raise TTK. Simple XML edits will do that.

* Lower the heat cap of all mechs. This directly limits their ability to fire massive alphastrikes and raises TTK. Maybe lessen the heat cap that heatsinks give a mech.. Maybe give all mechs a set heat cap that doesn't change with heatsinks..

* Keep the new sound effect for exceeding your P D limit. Just sound it off every time you trip Ghost Heat. It lets you know when you've made a mistake. Maybe even set an option in the menu to disable it if you're a pro and it annoys you.

* Keep the new 4 stage heat bar and heat icon. This is a really nice addition to the game and will help people manage heat.. especially after movement penalties and possibly accuracy penalties (reticule shake like when jump jetting) are added for mechs that are very hot.



Ghost Heat can balance the game in any way you choose. It can be intuitive with better tooltips and the new limit sound effect. Throwing away Ghost Heat in favor of Power Draw is going to imbalance the whole game. Long range weapons will reign supreme which encourages more peek/poke/hide sniping. This makes the game less fun to play. Some mechs will even be relegated to the useless junk pile (RIP: Atlas / Black Knight / Grasshopper / anything with either multiple energy hardpoints or mechs made to brawl.) This will severely anger people that invested cash to buy them.

The current game is more balanced than any time in its history.. In fact, MWO is currently more balanced than any other Mechwarrior game in the past. Don't throw that away. Power Draw was a nice idea. We've now tried it and we can clearly see that it has more problems than Ghost Heat. Solving those problems for game balance leads to unnecessary complexity.

(Oh.. and I will state that I have no opinion on the Gauss Rifle changes. That's an entirely different discussion.)

[Davers]

So far the running theme seems to be "brawling atlas is dead". Which is funny, since it really hasn't been a "thing" since beta.

[Leopardo]

With that ED we going to have a stay behind the hill gameplay

[ScarecrowES]

Davers, on 19 August 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

So far the running theme seems to be "brawling atlas is dead". Which is funny, since it really hasn't been a "thing" since beta.

I dunno... I always did quite well in my Atlai. They're also on of the best counters to the Kodiak. Still, I'm sure many would agree that you can tell a lot about the state of the game from the overall viability of the Atlas. Not a good sign if the Atlas goes to the rubbish bin.

[L3mming2]

more peek and poke?, in what way douse having to split up your alpha (insdead of poking out slamming down an 58 - 68 damage laser alpha and puling back) in 2 fire groops 1.5 s apart promote peek and poke???

the hole idea of poking is to poke out put as much damage down range in to your enemy as u can and retreat before u take damage back (ore atleast take only a fraction back of what you deal) the fact that ED forces you to ore only do pokes of 30 ore stand out in the open for 1.5s + time it takes for the second groop makes the poking game play stile so much less effective...

[Ultimax]

Peek and poke is encouraged by the facts that:

1) Cover exists and it is indestructible.
2) Players smartly want to maximize the amount of time they are alive.


You would have to divide all weapon damage by 5 or 10 before you could even get close to having circle strafe potato tier game play where people just ignore cover because it would be too boring to try peeking for wins with your peanut shooters.

[Gyrok]

Davers, on 19 August 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

So far the running theme seems to be "brawling atlas is dead". Which is funny, since it really hasn't been a "thing" since beta.

Erm...have you been hiding under a rock since the Atlas quirks?

In Tier 1, the Atlas S was THE most feared mech under 300m for quite some time up until very recently.

Ultimax, on 04 September 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

Peek and poke is encouraged by the facts that:

1) Cover exists and it is indestructible.
2) Players smartly want to maximize the amount of time they are alive.


You would have to divide all weapon damage by 5 or 10 before you could even get close to having circle strafe potato tier game play where people just ignore cover because it would be too boring to try peeking for wins with your peanut shooters.

This.

Potatoes do not know that the only way to correct their experience in game to match what they want to get from it is to skill up, start tryharding, and play the game to win.

MWO will never be casual friendly.

[L3mming2]

Ultimax, on 04 September 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

Peek and poke is encouraged by the facts that:

1) Cover exists and it is indestructible.
2) Players smartly want to maximize the amount of time they are alive.


You would have to divide all weapon damage by 5 or 10 before you could even get close to having circle strafe potato tier game play where people just ignore cover because it would be too boring to try peeking for wins with your peanut shooters.

but peek and poke is more effective on life then on the pts, as u can poke harder and more often on the life build...

[ScarecrowES]

Gyrok, on 04 September 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

Potatoes do not know that the only way to correct their experience in game to match what they want to get from it is to skill up, start tryharding, and play the game to win.

Hence the ridiculous notion that TTK is too high in this game. Some players have this notion that they can do stupid things and better players won't punish them for it.

[Gyrok]

L3mming2, on 04 September 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

but peek and poke is more effective on life then on the pts, as u can poke harder and more often on the life build...

On the live servers you can counter peek/poke easier than you can on PTS.

Which means both styles are more equally viable on live servers.

ScarecrowES, on 04 September 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

Hence the ridiculous notion that TTK is too high in this game. Some players have this notion that they can do stupid things and better players won't punish them for it.

Holy hell!

Yes, TTK is ABSURDLY high already...

[L3mming2]

Gyrok, on 04 September 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

On the live servers you can counter peek/poke easier than you can on PTS.

Which means both styles are more equally viable on live servers.



Holy hell!

Yes, TTK is ABSURDLY high already...

i personaly would be quite happy with no system no GH or ED, i do understand that there are a load of ppl that dont want that... and if there has to be a system then atleast let it be a good one GH is so easaly to get around that its just stupid...

more than a 20 point ppc alpha, no you dont ... but make a 74 point laser alpha good boy no problem for you... its just stupid.. if we have to have a system atleast let it be a good one.. a other one which makes me hate GH 2 AC20's o no you dont, but 2 gauss and 2 ppc no problem what so ever...

[ScarecrowES]

L3mming2, on 04 September 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

i personaly would be quite happy with no system no GH or ED, i do understand that there are a load of ppl that dont want that... and if there has to be a system then atleast let it be a good one GH is so easaly to get around that its just stupid...

more than a 20 point ppc alpha, no you dont ... but make a 74 point laser alpha good boy no problem for you... its just stupid.. if we have to have a system atleast let it be a good one.. a other one which makes me hate GH 2 AC20's o no you dont, but 2 gauss and 2 ppc no problem what so ever...

It IS completely possible to have a system that achieves what people seem to want... no ridiculously high repeatable alphas with all the various caveats people like, and no ridiculous levels of DoT... while also allowing for any path to damage being valid, and NOT requiring a massive set of band-aids and rules and hard caps and soft caps.

We just have to acknowledge that the base system in MWO creates all these problems, and no amount of overlays and tinkering will fix it.

[Andi Nagasia]

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

OK, I watched about five hours of Twitch streamers testing the system and spent several hours testing it, myself, both in the Testing Grounds and in live matches. With confidence, I say:


P D is going to encourage even more peek/poke and kill brawling.

dont agree, acually ive had quite fun brawling, have done lots of games 1v1 4v4 even 8v8,
a 2AC20-HBK-IIC vs a 12ERSL-NVA was an amazing fight, and it felt mostly balanced,

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

SRM/AC20/MPL brawling is right out. You don't facetank/chainfire in a brawl.. you alpha and twist. Now, alphastriking in a brawl is right out, as you want to keep going and not take on unnecessary heat which leads to overheating / shutting down. The alpha limit virtually prevents this.

ive been Fire Twist, turn back fire Twist to the other Side Repeat,
but most Mechs im playing feel like im in my 12ERSL-NVA, as you have to have 2 weapon groups anyway,
so perhaps thats training for me, getting me in the mind set of ED and not just playing AlphaWarrior,

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

But.. what if we increase the alpha limit of heavy/assault mechs?

No. Do not do this. This will encourage even more long ranged poke builds. Currently, you can build up to 7 LL/LPL or 6 PPC mechs that can peek - alphastrike - hide - cooldown.

i agree all mechs should have the same Draw,
though i have yet to see a 6PPC mech Alpha and not shutdown on the eD

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Well, what if we increase the heat penalty?

No. Do not do this. That will hurt brawling even more.. and peek/poke builds won't mind, as they're sniping and then hiding, anyway.

i agree, and accually with the Current 1Dam to 1Heat it feels about right,

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

We can adjust individual weapon P D multipliers..

No. The point of P D was to make the system easier to understand. Adding more complications to the system defeats its purpose.

as long as the Mech Lab tells you how much Draw a weapon has,
and its talerded to weapon type then i dont see a problem, with them having diffrent Values,

right now we are at,
AC/SSRM= 1:1 mostly
Lasers= 1:0.9
LBX/LRM/SRM= 1:0.75
thats much easier to understand then GH,
where you have to go to an external site to find out heat values,

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Well, how do we increase TTK / maintain weapon diversity in an easy to understand system?

Modify the existing Ghost Heat system instead of building a whole new system.

* Link more weapons together to eliminate holes in the current system. MDLAS and MPLAS should be linked just like LL and LPL are. Maybe link AC5/AC10.. (AC10 could count as two AC5..) maybe link AC5/PPC.. (PPC could count as two AC5..) maybe link all large and medium lasers.. (large lasers could count as two medium lasers..) All of this could be clearly explained in tooltips..

this makes GH even more complicated, and harder to explain to New Players

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

* Write more tooltips to be displayed in the Mechlab. The existing tooltips tell you that you shouldn't fire more than 3LL/LPL at a time. People will say, "but it gives new players no indication of just how much heat they're being penalized." That is not a valid argument. They are free to test mechs out in the Testing Grounds and see for themselves. After a few days of playing, the amount of extra heat you get is predictable.

this can be done with ED with out having to go back to GH,

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

* Keep or even increase the new weapon cooldown values. Maybe even completely remove the cooldown modules. That directly raises TTK. We don't need a whole new convoluted and overly complex system to raise TTK. Simple XML edits will do that.

ED PTS is already doing this and it seems to be doing well,

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

* Lower the heat cap of all mechs. This directly limits their ability to fire massive alphastrikes and raises TTK. Maybe lessen the heat cap that heatsinks give a mech.. Maybe give all mechs a set heat cap that doesn't change with heatsinks..

still on the wall with this one, not sure ether way,

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

* Keep the new 4 stage heat bar and heat icon. This is a really nice addition to the game and will help people manage heat.. especially after movement penalties and possibly accuracy penalties (reticule shake like when jump jetting) are added for mechs that are very hot.

i like this idea and Support that, as well as a slight sake when moving(faster Movement = more shake)

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Ghost Heat can balance the game in any way you choose. It can be intuitive with better tooltips and the new limit sound effect. Throwing away Ghost Heat in favor of Power Draw is going to imbalance the whole game. Long range weapons will reign supreme which encourages more peek/poke/hide sniping. This makes the game less fun to play. Some mechs will even be relegated to the useless junk pile (RIP: Atlas / Black Knight / Grasshopper / anything with either multiple energy hardpoints or mechs made to brawl.) This will severely anger people that invested cash to buy them.

The current game is more balanced than any time in its history.. In fact, MWO is currently more balanced than any other Mechwarrior game in the past. Don't throw that away. Power Draw was a nice idea. We've now tried it and we can clearly see that it has more problems than Ghost Heat. Solving those problems for game balance leads to unnecessary complexity.

(Oh.. and I will state that I have no opinion on the Gauss Rifle changes. That's an entirely different discussion.)

i still think ED is a better system and feel that its a better choice to move forward,
tool tips could help ED and people understanding it, as well as help new players,

its hard to play the poke game when you have to wait 6-7 seconds before shots,
thats allot of time to not be firing, and a fast brawler can close the distance in that time,
a 2Gauss/2CERPPC KDK will have problems with a 12ERSL NVA at point blank,

[Ultimax]

L3mming2, on 04 September 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

but peek and poke is more effective on life then on the pts, as u can poke harder and more often on the life build...

The biggest alphas are more effective, not every mech is capable of bringing them.

It remains to be seen what builds will rise to the top when the system is live, because a handful of people playing 4v4 certainly isn't going to show us where the meta will be.

You can still peek and poke with 30 point alphas. I do it right now on live with a handful of builds.

[Gentleman Reaper]

AnTi90d, on 19 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

* Lower the heat cap of all mechs. This directly limits their ability to fire massive alphastrikes and raises TTK. Maybe lessen the heat cap that heatsinks give a mech.. Maybe give all mechs a set heat cap that doesn't change with heatsinks..

I actually agree with this, the issue of course, like it has been in previous MWs, is autocannons and gauss rifles. Limiting ballistics is ED's strength, so mixing a lower heat cap with ED leaves virtually no exploitable balance issues. So we get a TT-like heatscale, PGI keeps the system that they've put so much time in already, and every weapon can be evenly balanced, all with a small XML change. The issues in the PTS aren't related to ED, but the heat scale, if you still find reason to hate it with a lower heat cap, then you're just grasping at straws.

[davoodoo]

On live if something cant hide fast enough to avoid return fire it brings alpha big enough to make it worthwhile.

On pts however **** it, mediums already reach peak long range alpha and they are not only faster but also smaller, or **** even locust can pack 6 mlas and poke at 270m without risking much return fire.

Edited by davoodoo, 05 September 2016 - 03:42 AM.

[Drifting]

PD should be affected by range, It makes sense that weapons able to reach larger ranges need more energy to do so.
Having a PD stat with the weapon isn't that confusing.
It seems a reasonable way to balance long range & short range weapons.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Davers, on 19 August 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

So far the running theme seems to be "brawling atlas is dead". Which is funny, since it really hasn't been a "thing" since beta.

It has actually, just in quick play brawling isn't much of a thing. If you go back to the last season of MRBC they were a staple of certain drop decks.

[Davers]

Rouken Vordermark, on 05 September 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

It has actually, just in quick play brawling isn't much of a thing. If you go back to the last season of MRBC they were a staple of certain drop decks.

But you can't point at a player made game mode with it's own rules and limits to justify balance for the game in general. If there were no rules concerning what you were allowed to bring, would the Atlas still have been a staple mech?

[ScarecrowES]

Drifting, on 05 September 2016 - 07:10 PM, said:

PD should be affected by range, It makes sense that weapons able to reach larger ranges need more energy to do so.
Having a PD stat with the weapon isn't that confusing.
It seems a reasonable way to balance long range & short range weapons.

For the record, damage and range aren't balanced off each other for BT weapons. Heat and range is. We have a system that is supposed to account for the range of the damage we're doing. The best version of that system is the one in TT that we don't use.