Can I suggest something?
I know Russ and Paul dont like Ghost Heat.
I know I dont like Energy Draw...
Why not make a comprimise? Lets throw both out the window and go with pure unadulterated violence with no weapon restrictions!
Then we can play big stompy robots with reckless abandon!
(Wait... Guys... Why did you just pull out a pitch fork and rope tied like a hang mans noose?)
I'm sorry! Really I'm sorry! I promise I'll be good!!!
4
Gh Or Ed?
Started by L3mming2, Aug 21 2016 05:26 AM
167 replies to this topic
#102
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Posted 22 August 2016 - 07:48 PM
Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:
Can I suggest something?
I know Russ and Paul dont like Ghost Heat.
I know I dont like Energy Draw...
Why not make a comprimise? Lets throw both out the window and go with pure unadulterated violence with no weapon restrictions!
Then we can play big stompy robots with reckless abandon!
(Wait... Guys... Why did you just pull out a pitch fork and rope tied like a hang mans noose?)
I'm sorry! Really I'm sorry! I promise I'll be good!!!
I know Russ and Paul dont like Ghost Heat.
I know I dont like Energy Draw...
Why not make a comprimise? Lets throw both out the window and go with pure unadulterated violence with no weapon restrictions!
Then we can play big stompy robots with reckless abandon!
(Wait... Guys... Why did you just pull out a pitch fork and rope tied like a hang mans noose?)
I'm sorry! Really I'm sorry! I promise I'll be good!!!
Mediocre™
#103
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- FP Veteran - Beta 1
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Posted 22 August 2016 - 07:51 PM
Seeing that majority of casual players want Manifold and Frozen maps with Skirmish all of the time, I could also predict that most votes would go for "remove heat system"... Ghost heat is the way to add a lot of factors into gameplay, and it should remain in the system!
#104
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- Marshal II
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Posted 22 August 2016 - 10:20 PM
Is there really a difference between GH and ED? GH prevents boating of certain weapons, ED prevents boating of just weapons. What I mean in its nature it's not that different, only now it comes with an indicator.
Why it's even called energy draw.. I could understand that a mech can't fire for a few seconds when the amount of energy drawn is larger than what the reactor can transform within that time span, but creating ghost heat tied to the amount of damage just doesn't make sense to me. It only adds to make the game even less intuitive for new players.
Why it's even called energy draw.. I could understand that a mech can't fire for a few seconds when the amount of energy drawn is larger than what the reactor can transform within that time span, but creating ghost heat tied to the amount of damage just doesn't make sense to me. It only adds to make the game even less intuitive for new players.
Edited by Donnerkeil666, 22 August 2016 - 10:22 PM.
#105
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Posted 23 August 2016 - 01:17 AM
Donnerkeil666, on 22 August 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:
Is there really a difference between GH and ED? GH prevents boating of certain weapons, ED prevents boating of just weapons. What I mean in its nature it's not that different, only now it comes with an indicator.
Why it's even called energy draw.. I could understand that a mech can't fire for a few seconds when the amount of energy drawn is larger than what the reactor can transform within that time span, but creating ghost heat tied to the amount of damage just doesn't make sense to me. It only adds to make the game even less intuitive for new players.
Why it's even called energy draw.. I could understand that a mech can't fire for a few seconds when the amount of energy drawn is larger than what the reactor can transform within that time span, but creating ghost heat tied to the amount of damage just doesn't make sense to me. It only adds to make the game even less intuitive for new players.
- GH prevents use of same weapon in one punch force to use mix build to get no heat penalty but same 1 massive punch.
(so you can' do shot from all your 4x laser, dakka, or rocket without penalry, but you can mix them with other and get same damage for lower cost of heat)
- ED prevents use whole one powerfull punch besides mixed build or it boating. Force to use split alpha damage.
(so you can't shot all your weapon at once, no matter is it mix build or 4x of same weapon without heat penalty if you go outside of energy (say - damage) limit. You have no trouble if all your fire power exact = energy draw limit. And you have no problem if you have twice as big firepower - you just need to change fire pattern to do alpha by 2-3 shot, not in one. Thats make battle longer a little)
So smart player use it already by breaking alpha in two groups (like 1st button and 2nd, or even 3rd). Other use under GH mix build to go in range and blow all what they have in face of enemy.
And it's not like ghost heat. As I see, only what go off limit of ED have additional heat. In same time in borders of that limit you have now less heat than on living server, what make many builds work better. Even pretty hot.
To describe that simply - your alpha must be equal to Energy Draw pool. If your mech have 2x or 3x that that pool firepower - you need to cut that into 2-3 parts with delay equal 1.5 second between (energy refill) or time need for your mech to cool off (dissipating of your heat time - faster on mech with good heat management, a little slower on mech with low heat management)
It is more intuitive than GH...
Edited by Tiantara, 23 August 2016 - 01:20 AM.
#106
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Posted 23 August 2016 - 01:03 PM
I'm sorry but I just don't understand it. Energy draw equal to damage done for the weapon. So ... you're trying to tell me that it takes it takes just as much "energy" to fire off the primer cap for an AC10 round as it takes to fire off a PPC?!?!? Sorry, but that just doesn't fly ... Also, "That's a *REALLY* nice V-12, fuel-injected, NOX installed car you brought to the 'Unlimited Class' race ... musta cost you a pretty penny ... btw ... you can only run 8 of the 12 cylinders *AND* you have to turn off the fuel injection and the NOX ... have a nice day!!!" ... -OR- "That's one hell of a battleship you have there ... btw you can only fire one turret at and time and you have to wait two minutes before firing the next one ... sorry about that ... have a nice day!!!" ... uhhhh WHAT!?!?!?!?
There's always been basically four types of play styles, Snipers, Skirmishers, Harassers and Brawlers. ED (in its current state) will basically kill off the Brawler style of play. I mean, who the hell is going to try to do a knock down, drag out brawl, 30 points at a time? Why bother taking anything other than a light or a fast medium? You'll get the benefit of speed and maneuverability and you *KNOW* that the assault mech isn't going to throw more than 30 points of damage at you unless he wants to risk shutting down, and besides, most of that damage is probably going to miss, spread or never even register since there's *STILL* issues with hit registration. And while you're getting rid of assault mechs, you might as well get rid of the Ultra AC/20 ... cause who's ever going to double-tap that sucker? People say that it's to prevent boating of weapons. I hate to be the bearer of old news but there are numerous mechs that are *SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED* to boat weapons. Deal with it.
The only way that I can see this ED even remotely working, is the following:
1) You have a Total Power Rating (TPR) which possibly could be the equivalent to the Engine Rating (bigger engine = more power?)
2) A certain percentage of that TPR is required to operate the mech. (Myomers, Actuators, Sensors, Life Support, Fire Control Systems, etc.) For this example, let's say 50%. The remainder will be your Base Available Power Rating (BAPR)
3) Each mech class or even each mech will have a BAPR adjustment percentage. Why? .. because an assault mech is *SUPPOSED* to bring overwhelming firepower to the field *AND* be able to use it.
4) *Every* static item that is mounted on a mech is assigned an Energy Draw Value (EDV). You want more heat sinks? a BAP? ECM? That's fine, but remember that it's going to take a bit off off your BAPR cause you have to have power to run those heat sinks, BAP, ECM etc.
5) AMS and other on/off type systems will have to be kept track of separately because their power use are dynamic.
6) Add up all the EDV from the static items and subtract it from the BAPR. This will give you a Weapons Available Power Rating (WAAPR). This is your available power that you have to fire your weapons.
7) The dynamic items will draw their EDV from the WAAPR continuously while they are turned on.
8) Every weapon system is assigned an Energy Draw Value (basically the amount of power required to fire that weapon). Every weapon system has to be looked at individually and you can't use *JUST* the damage value as a base because you have different types of weapon systems i.e. Ballistic (low-draw) , Missile (medium-draw), Energy (high-draw). One major exception is the Gauss Rifle -- while it is classified as a Ballistic weapon, it should have a high EDV due to the fact that it has to energize all those rail gun capacitors. An AC/10 would have a lower EDV compared to a PPC or even two Medium lasers for that fact. The damage that a partiular weapon does should only be considered when comparing damage values within the same class of weapon i.e. a Large Laser does more damage than a Medium Laser so it should have a higher EDV.
9) The WAAPR is your alpha limit. You can fire as many weapons as you want, regardless of the total amount of damage those weapons do, as long as the combined EDV of weapons that you fire are below or equal to the WAAPR. If you try to fire more weapons in a weapon group than you have WAAPR, then the fire control system (FCS) rejects the command and *NOTHING* fires (Either that or it causes a severe heat spike because you've overloaded the power couplings). The exception to this is if the weapon group is set to Chain Fire. If you fire multiple weapon groups whose combined EDV is greater than your WAAPR, then only some of the weapon groups will fire (or once again, generates a severe heat spike). The WAAPR recharge is either instantaneous or at a very fast fixed rate. Remember, you're still bound by Weapon Heat Generation and Weapon Cooldown which still control the rate at which you're firing your weapons. Hitting Reactor Overide will let you draw an additional 10-20% WAAPR *BUT* will cause an additional delay in WAAPR recharge because you overtaxed it. Furthermore, continuously firing "in the red" will overload and damage your FCS causing it to incrementally provide you less and less of your maximum WAAPR. All this is in addition to the current heat system, shutting down due to heat and taking damage due to heat, etc.
Is this system perfect? ... no ... but it's a far cry better than what I've seen and heard so far about ED. On the down side, I fear that trying to keep track all of this for 24 mechs per game times 'X' number of games simultaneously will negatively affect the performance of the game servers.
From what I've heard people say, the current ED system is just going to bring back the old poptart days as well as introduce another potentially flawed "balancing" system (like the quirk system where a light mech can "effectively" have more armor/structure than a medium mech for free or someone's figured out for a particular mech variant how to make a PPC bolt go 50% faster but it can't be applied to any other mech variant even within the same base chassis type).
Now, having said all of the above, and I apologize for it's length ....
If the purpose of the proposed (damage=energy draw) ED system is to add *ANOTHER* balancing system, then I am highly opposed to it as it is currently proposed as there's already too many disjointed balancing systems in this game. It just adds another layer of bandaged complexity which can potentially conflict with other systems already in place. [Weapon Heat Generation & Cooldown] vs [Ghost Heat] vs [Gauss Charge Time] vs [Quirk System]. While you may try to replace [GH] (and possibly [Gauss Charge Time]) with [ED], it still doesn't change the fact that all these various balancing systems are disjointed.
As it stands now, all I see is ED (in its current state) severely gimping/nerfing brawlers and other high alpha builds ... I also see all the Clans packing up and going back home in deep space as one of the primary draws of playing the clans is the fact that they can boat more weapons and have higher alpha builds.
If the purpose of the proposed ED system was to make mechs live longer so the matches last longer, then the simplest way of doing that would have been to just double the amout of damage that a single point of armor could take e.g you took 10 points of weapon damage therefore, you lost 5 armor points.
There's always been basically four types of play styles, Snipers, Skirmishers, Harassers and Brawlers. ED (in its current state) will basically kill off the Brawler style of play. I mean, who the hell is going to try to do a knock down, drag out brawl, 30 points at a time? Why bother taking anything other than a light or a fast medium? You'll get the benefit of speed and maneuverability and you *KNOW* that the assault mech isn't going to throw more than 30 points of damage at you unless he wants to risk shutting down, and besides, most of that damage is probably going to miss, spread or never even register since there's *STILL* issues with hit registration. And while you're getting rid of assault mechs, you might as well get rid of the Ultra AC/20 ... cause who's ever going to double-tap that sucker? People say that it's to prevent boating of weapons. I hate to be the bearer of old news but there are numerous mechs that are *SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED* to boat weapons. Deal with it.
The only way that I can see this ED even remotely working, is the following:
1) You have a Total Power Rating (TPR) which possibly could be the equivalent to the Engine Rating (bigger engine = more power?)
2) A certain percentage of that TPR is required to operate the mech. (Myomers, Actuators, Sensors, Life Support, Fire Control Systems, etc.) For this example, let's say 50%. The remainder will be your Base Available Power Rating (BAPR)
3) Each mech class or even each mech will have a BAPR adjustment percentage. Why? .. because an assault mech is *SUPPOSED* to bring overwhelming firepower to the field *AND* be able to use it.
4) *Every* static item that is mounted on a mech is assigned an Energy Draw Value (EDV). You want more heat sinks? a BAP? ECM? That's fine, but remember that it's going to take a bit off off your BAPR cause you have to have power to run those heat sinks, BAP, ECM etc.
5) AMS and other on/off type systems will have to be kept track of separately because their power use are dynamic.
6) Add up all the EDV from the static items and subtract it from the BAPR. This will give you a Weapons Available Power Rating (WAAPR). This is your available power that you have to fire your weapons.
7) The dynamic items will draw their EDV from the WAAPR continuously while they are turned on.
8) Every weapon system is assigned an Energy Draw Value (basically the amount of power required to fire that weapon). Every weapon system has to be looked at individually and you can't use *JUST* the damage value as a base because you have different types of weapon systems i.e. Ballistic (low-draw) , Missile (medium-draw), Energy (high-draw). One major exception is the Gauss Rifle -- while it is classified as a Ballistic weapon, it should have a high EDV due to the fact that it has to energize all those rail gun capacitors. An AC/10 would have a lower EDV compared to a PPC or even two Medium lasers for that fact. The damage that a partiular weapon does should only be considered when comparing damage values within the same class of weapon i.e. a Large Laser does more damage than a Medium Laser so it should have a higher EDV.
9) The WAAPR is your alpha limit. You can fire as many weapons as you want, regardless of the total amount of damage those weapons do, as long as the combined EDV of weapons that you fire are below or equal to the WAAPR. If you try to fire more weapons in a weapon group than you have WAAPR, then the fire control system (FCS) rejects the command and *NOTHING* fires (Either that or it causes a severe heat spike because you've overloaded the power couplings). The exception to this is if the weapon group is set to Chain Fire. If you fire multiple weapon groups whose combined EDV is greater than your WAAPR, then only some of the weapon groups will fire (or once again, generates a severe heat spike). The WAAPR recharge is either instantaneous or at a very fast fixed rate. Remember, you're still bound by Weapon Heat Generation and Weapon Cooldown which still control the rate at which you're firing your weapons. Hitting Reactor Overide will let you draw an additional 10-20% WAAPR *BUT* will cause an additional delay in WAAPR recharge because you overtaxed it. Furthermore, continuously firing "in the red" will overload and damage your FCS causing it to incrementally provide you less and less of your maximum WAAPR. All this is in addition to the current heat system, shutting down due to heat and taking damage due to heat, etc.
Is this system perfect? ... no ... but it's a far cry better than what I've seen and heard so far about ED. On the down side, I fear that trying to keep track all of this for 24 mechs per game times 'X' number of games simultaneously will negatively affect the performance of the game servers.
From what I've heard people say, the current ED system is just going to bring back the old poptart days as well as introduce another potentially flawed "balancing" system (like the quirk system where a light mech can "effectively" have more armor/structure than a medium mech for free or someone's figured out for a particular mech variant how to make a PPC bolt go 50% faster but it can't be applied to any other mech variant even within the same base chassis type).
Now, having said all of the above, and I apologize for it's length ....
If the purpose of the proposed (damage=energy draw) ED system is to add *ANOTHER* balancing system, then I am highly opposed to it as it is currently proposed as there's already too many disjointed balancing systems in this game. It just adds another layer of bandaged complexity which can potentially conflict with other systems already in place. [Weapon Heat Generation & Cooldown] vs [Ghost Heat] vs [Gauss Charge Time] vs [Quirk System]. While you may try to replace [GH] (and possibly [Gauss Charge Time]) with [ED], it still doesn't change the fact that all these various balancing systems are disjointed.
As it stands now, all I see is ED (in its current state) severely gimping/nerfing brawlers and other high alpha builds ... I also see all the Clans packing up and going back home in deep space as one of the primary draws of playing the clans is the fact that they can boat more weapons and have higher alpha builds.
If the purpose of the proposed ED system was to make mechs live longer so the matches last longer, then the simplest way of doing that would have been to just double the amout of damage that a single point of armor could take e.g you took 10 points of weapon damage therefore, you lost 5 armor points.
Edited by Airwolf, 23 August 2016 - 01:05 PM.
#107
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Posted 25 August 2016 - 03:35 AM
Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:
At least the "loopholes" in the GH system (they aren't loopholes, they were part of the general design, GH was put into the game to stop high, perfectly synced alphas, which is why it was based on similar weapons, there are no loopholes, MLs + LLs is not a loophole) at least encouraged people to use different weapons to increase their firepower. There is no such encouragement for energy draw. You might as well boat weapons and fire in two volleys. TTK isn't going to change, but variety is down the drain.
"MLs + LLs is not a loophole" ... lets just agrea to disagrea on that one shall we...
#108
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- Bad Company
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Posted 25 August 2016 - 07:05 AM
While assauls are already affected, I think people especially in lights and mediums might find the new system less restrictive for now. However wait for the new meta builds that are made with the 30 (20) DPS mantra in mind and you will see how restrictive it will be.
Edited by Crushko, 25 August 2016 - 07:06 AM.
#109
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- Liquid Metal
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Posted 25 August 2016 - 08:59 AM
Crushko, on 25 August 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:
While assauls are already affected, I think people especially in lights and mediums might find the new system less restrictive for now. However wait for the new meta builds that are made with the 30 (20) DPS mantra in mind and you will see how restrictive it will be.
Yea ive seen those builds.
3 lpl, 3ppc(before nerf), 2 gauss(before nerf), 6 mlas if they cant put anything heavier. 3 uac10
Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 08:59 AM.
#110
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- The Patron Saint
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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:07 AM
Oh no! With the new system it takes 9 seconds instead of 7 to take out a fresh Atlas with my old build. Clearly this new system is so broken.
From my tests you can still carry the same amount of firepower, you just need to alternate firing your weapon groups rather than relying on alpha strikes. I can only alpha once with this system, whereas I could alpha 3 times before risking a shutdown using the old system.
The system could still use some tweaks but overall I'm fairly satisfied with the results. Who knows maybe this could help us get better at landing our shots rather than alpha striking any time we see a cored mech.
From my tests you can still carry the same amount of firepower, you just need to alternate firing your weapon groups rather than relying on alpha strikes. I can only alpha once with this system, whereas I could alpha 3 times before risking a shutdown using the old system.
The system could still use some tweaks but overall I'm fairly satisfied with the results. Who knows maybe this could help us get better at landing our shots rather than alpha striking any time we see a cored mech.
#111
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- 84 posts
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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:10 AM
ProjectGnome, on 25 August 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:
Oh no! With the new system it takes 9 seconds instead of 7 to take out a fresh Atlas with my old build. Clearly this new system is so broken.
From my tests you can still carry the same amount of firepower, you just need to alternate firing your weapon groups rather than relying on alpha strikes. I can only alpha once with this system, whereas I could alpha 3 times before risking a shutdown using the old system.
The system could still use some tweaks but overall I'm fairly satisfied with the results. Who knows maybe this could help us get better at landing our shots rather than alpha striking any time we see a cored mech.
From my tests you can still carry the same amount of firepower, you just need to alternate firing your weapon groups rather than relying on alpha strikes. I can only alpha once with this system, whereas I could alpha 3 times before risking a shutdown using the old system.
The system could still use some tweaks but overall I'm fairly satisfied with the results. Who knows maybe this could help us get better at landing our shots rather than alpha striking any time we see a cored mech.
Hey Dude did u read the Notes? -15% Cooldown on Weapons do that :/
#112
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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:16 AM
Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:
Can I suggest something? I know Russ and Paul dont like Ghost Heat. I know I dont like Energy Draw... Why not make a comprimise? Lets throw both out the window and go with pure unadulterated violence with no weapon restrictions! Then we can play big stompy robots with reckless abandon! (Wait... Guys... Why did you just pull out a pitch fork and rope tied like a hang mans noose?) I'm sorry! Really I'm sorry! I promise I'll be good!!!
I will admit it would be fun if they added a mode that was free of restrictions. Unfortunately if they added that then no one might play the normal game because it requires more skill to deal with restrictions like heat management.
#113
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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:33 AM
Kazzun, on 25 August 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:
Hey Dude did u read the Notes? -15% Cooldown on Weapons do that :/
The cooldown isn't hurting my build too drastically, it's primarily the heat. Overriding my shutdown is a guaranteed death within seconds if I try to Alpha twice, which I think is a really nice touch. It's nice that using override now shreds your mech rather than just blowing out your core. Perhaps I never got myself hot enough with the old system to witness my mech dissolving from overheating before I exploded.
It might be because I only build brawlers that the decreased cooldown isn't hurting me as much as it hurts other builds.
#114
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- FP Veteran - Beta 2
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Posted 25 August 2016 - 01:09 PM
Source Mystic, on 25 August 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:
Your right they need to triple nerf more weapons like the ppc and er ppc and normalize the system then everything will be fine.
As of right now I am not impressed with ED but I am of the camp of lets see how bad it can get Go E.D. ... I think it would have been far simpler to say 30 damage at a time no penalty everything after that gets exponential raise in heat. Simple easy this over complicated energy draw bs is crap.
Hey. What font did you use for your signature?
#115
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Posted 25 August 2016 - 06:37 PM
Looks like ED is in the lead.
#116
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Posted 26 August 2016 - 02:38 AM
davoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 06:01 AM, said:
No this isnt finished product, but you know what pgi will do before ti hits live?? theyll crank up penatlies up to 11...
and mind you, mechwarrior online is the first game in the series and even in the entirety of battletech franchise where alphas have become a problem...
and mind you, mechwarrior online is the first game in the series and even in the entirety of battletech franchise where alphas have become a problem...
I logged in to tell you that you 1992 called and you are wrong. [color=#6A6A6A]Battletech[/color][color=#545454] Centers (pod based system) was the first time. [/color]
#117
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- Liquid Metal
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Posted 26 August 2016 - 02:48 AM
Eric darkstar Marr, on 26 August 2016 - 02:38 AM, said:
I logged in to tell you that you 1992 called and you are wrong. [color=#6A6A6A]Battletech[/color][color=#545454] Centers (pod based system) was the first time. [/color]
And surely you can show some informed opinions on that matter or am i to believe your word??
And you can google this **** if you want, only things google returns for alpha strike is board game sales and mwo complaints and ive tried my best to find anyone complaining about mw4 mw3 mw2 mw1 and even board games and pods alphas...
Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 02:54 AM.
#118
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Posted 26 August 2016 - 02:54 AM
The design concept isn't about limiting Alphas. Read what it's about.
#119
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- Liquid Metal
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Posted 26 August 2016 - 03:02 AM
Stone Wall, on 26 August 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:
The design concept isn't about limiting Alphas. Read what it's about.
"The system is not meant to completely discourage Alpha-centric builds, nor is it intended to favor DPS builds."
About limiting alphas without completely removing them...
And sorry even within intentions it failed as dps is clearly favored...
Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 03:04 AM.
#120
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Posted 26 August 2016 - 03:10 AM
davoodoo, on 26 August 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:
"The system is not meant to completely discourage Alpha-centric builds, nor is it intended to favor DPS builds."
About limiting alphas without completely removing them...
And sorry even within intentions it failed as dps is clearly favored...
About limiting alphas without completely removing them...
And sorry even within intentions it failed as dps is clearly favored...
From what I've seen, the intention is to give a simple equation for heat and is raising the penalty on heat. You can still Alpha over 30, but you get added heat. Removing high Alphas completely, the system would just make you instant shut down for drawing too much energy. Luckily this isn't happening and you have Cool Shots.
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