167 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

On PTS many of forgotten mech become useful.

No, they really didn't.

[Gas Guzzler]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

On PTS many of forgotten mech become useful.

No they didn't. Just because people are trying different mechs doesn't mean they are useful. Once this system goes live, the community will settle in to whatever is strongest. And rest assured, that selection of "strong mechs" will be smaller than it is currently.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Has anyone tested the standard atlas builds? Can they hold their own still or are they unplayable?

[Gas Guzzler]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

Has anyone tested the standard atlas builds? Can they hold their own still or are they unplayable?

Very hot to alpha, takes you to about 60% IIRC, so you will have to fire weapons in a groups which is bad for a large slow moving brawler as you can't torso twist.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

Very hot to alpha, takes you to about 60% IIRC, so you will have to fire weapons in a groups which is bad for a large slow moving brawler as you can't torso twist.

Wow so mechs already struggling to find a place are getting benched...

Seems to me, ED removes slow movng assault brawlers out of viability?

I guess this will solidify PPFLD alpha sniper as the top tier overlords, because any sort of counter is being phased out?

(I guess the best way to balance the game, is to only have a few options that the player base can choose from?)

Hey thats cool. can we make Victors Fly again?

#MakeVictorsFlyAgain

[Tiantara]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

No, they really didn't.

- Examples?

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

No they didn't. Just because people are trying different mechs doesn't mean they are useful. Once this system goes live, the community will settle in to whatever is strongest. And rest assured, that selection of "strong mechs" will be smaller than it is currently.

- As I can see some underpowered mech become useful because its full power can be fit to energy draw pool without ghost heat. In same time they have less income damage when fullpowered mech forced to split damage. Am I wrong?

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

Very hot to alpha, takes you to about 60% IIRC, so you will have to fire weapons in a groups which is bad for a large slow moving brawler as you can't torso twist.

- Tested all 3 my Atlas already. In brawling with Kodiak Atlas got victory. But we forgot one important thing. In situation where both powerful mech have one-punch limit in first place come pilot skill and tactic. You can shield from 30 DMG, but can't do nothing with incoming 78DMG which rip your arm off. You can scatter 30DMG along torso, but can't when incoming alpha 69DMG. And what if incoming was from 2-3 such mech? Instant death. Now battle become longer, mech can loose all armor but have structure.

[Tiantara]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Seems to me, ED removes slow movng assault brawlers out of viability?

- Nope... If long range weapon got longer cooldown brawlers got time to get closer. Again - PTS its a test zone, not final mechanic. Based on observation it can be tweaked in one or another side. And easier than with GH, quirks or rebalancing each mech and weapon.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

- Nope... If long range weapon got longer cooldown brawlers got time to get closer. Again - PTS its a test zone, not final mechanic. Based on observation it can be tweaked in one or another side. And easier than with GH, quirks or rebalancing each mech and weapon.

Im not exactly sure what you mean by longer cooldowns, but if an atlas can only alpha once in a brawl and has to run to cool off, im not sure whats the point of trying to close the distance? Especially since closing the distance can take a long time while under fire...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

- Examples?

Vindicator is still bad, so are lights that aren't called Arctic Cheetah. Bad assaults like the Zeus and Victor are still terrible.

The best mechs prior to this are still the best mechs because a lot of the meta mechs were unaffected by this like the 2 ERPPC Hunchback IIC or the Warhammer.

[Tiantara]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Im not exactly sure what you mean by longer cooldowns, but if an atlas can only alpha once in a brawl and has to run to cool off, im not sure whats the point of trying to close the distance? Especially since closing the distance can take a long time while under fire...

- Longer cooldown of longrange weapon give chance to shorten distance to medium\short range. So, some mech can do that faster, some slower... On PTS atlas with correct build works better than in live server. Yes, it now forced to make half of alpha in one shot and after 1.5sec delay second. And after another 1.5 sec again first half of alpha punch. And don't overheat much comparing with live server. You just deliver alpha by portions and have less heat, so you can brawler longer.
Anyway - ED must be tweaked, and will be, before implementation in real game. If you have any worries about Atlas - we can go and check it in PTS in any time.

[Luscious Dan]

I don't think ED is a total waste, nor do I think it's a perfect solution. With some tuning to the values for PPFLD, hitscan, and spread weapons it's workable. It'll be interesting to see if support systems factor into it, i.e., does it take reactor energy to keep ECM/AP running? MASC? Jump jets?

I still think there's a lot of variables to evaluate (which is really the problem for the entire weapons balance issue, it's not one thing at play) but there's some potential and I do like the fact that the data could be a lot more readily available in-game rather than on smurfy or whatever.

The mechlab UI can and probably should include some more info. The weapon grouping screen should allow you to set up chainfire, and frankly it should allow you to set TAG/MG groupings to toggle mode. More importantly, the grouping screen could also give you a breakdown of the energy draw from each group and tell you specifically what the penalties are.

Putting in an alpha calculator like this into the weapon grouping screen would go a LONG way IMO to making the heat/energy system more transparent to the player.

Also, I still think the weapon balance system should introduce elements like recoil/reticle shake from ballistics, increased spread the more missile systems you equip, longer beam duration/slower PPC velocity if you equip energy weapons that would exceed threshold if alpha'ed (even if you don't alpha them, still reduce the effective pinpoint accuracy). Heat shouldn't be the only thing that limits pinpoint damage. Once again, the report generated by the weapon grouping screen could generate all these detailed warnings.

Note: +5% missile spread (more than 3 SRM launchers equipped)
Note: +20% recoil (more than 2 ballistic weapons grouped together)
Note: +0.5s charge time for each gauss rifle after the first

You could even make it so that the report pops up automatically whenever you change your loadout. Maybe include a checkbox so that experienced players can disable the auto-report feature. Everybody wins

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

- Examples?



- As I can see some underpowered mech become useful because its full power can be fit to energy draw pool without ghost heat. In same time they have less income damage when fullpowered mech forced to split damage. Am I wrong?



- Tested all 3 my Atlas already. In brawling with Kodiak Atlas got victory. But we forgot one important thing. In situation where both powerful mech have one-punch limit in first place come pilot skill and tactic. You can shield from 30 DMG, but can't do nothing with incoming 78DMG which rip your arm off. You can scatter 30DMG along torso, but can't when incoming alpha 69DMG. And what if incoming was from 2-3 such mech? Instant death. Now battle become longer, mech can loose all armor but have structure.

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

- Longer cooldown of longrange weapon give chance to shorten distance to medium\short range. So, some mech can do that faster, some slower... On PTS atlas with correct build works better than in live server. Yes, it now forced to make half of alpha in one shot and after 1.5sec delay second. And after another 1.5 sec again first half of alpha punch. And don't overheat much comparing with live server. You just deliver alpha by portions and have less heat, so you can brawler longer.
Anyway - ED must be tweaked, and will be, before implementation in real game. If you have any worries about Atlas - we can go and check it in PTS in any time.

Ok now I am really confused. Did you test the atlas in a 1x1 situation? Or did you test the atlas under actual coordinated team play?

How does said atlas handle breaking a ridgeline of kodiaks? Basically, can 4 atlas get into a brawl and take high ground away from kodiaks petched up and ready to lay waste?

I am not talking about 1x1, I am talking about 8x8 or 12x12 real life scenarios on real maps.

I ask these questions because I am unable to test it myself. And am glad there are people out there who can test these things for me.

(I dont mean to sound aggressive, I am just trying to figure out the system as a whole, but it looks like to me, that everyone is getting pidgeon holed into only a few choices of game play)

[ScarecrowES]

Here's the biggest problem with ED as it is... it makes zero distinction for HOW you're doing damage. For GH, that's all the system cares about.

Because there's no delineation in ED, you can't make changes that, for instance, hurt alphas without it also having profound effects elsewhere.

If you buff a weapon type, you buff it for mixed builds and boats alike. If you need the draw limit or recharge rate, you nerf it for mixed builds and alpha builds alike. If you make a change to weapon cooldowns or range or this or that, you do it for DPS builds and PPFLD builds alike.

Right now, ED makes meta stronger than ever, and mixed builds weaker than ever. There seems almost universal agreement on this. What so many are unwilling to accept is that there is absolutely no capacity within ED to distinguish between ways to do damage you want to encourage and ways you want to discourage.

You can't simply change a few values here and there and suddenly curb PPFLD, boating, or alphas without causing further harm to everything you want to elevate.

This is ED's primary failure. You cannot treat everything as equal when you know very well that it's not.

[Tiantara]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

Ok now I am really confused. Did you test the atlas in a 1x1 situation? Or did you test the atlas under actual coordinated team play?

- I test it in 1 vs 1 (private lobby), and 4vs4 (quick game with random builds). FW not available in PTS. Also it show good in 8 vs 8 - but here was not so many Kodiaks... more mixed party. If i found 7 players who want test exact problem or thing - it wuld be good. Mostly in quick game all test own builds and have no interest in testing something outside preferred mech. Now - in quick game you hardly find match...

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

How does said atlas handle breaking a ridgeline of kodiaks? Basically, can 4 atlas get into a brawl and take high ground away from kodiaks petched up and ready to lay waste?

- In battle I have chance to duel with kodiak and win. So with right move Atlas can do that. In same time smart alpha split in Kodiak can do the same. When all have alpha limit - in place come piloting skill. And all have different level of it.

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

I am not talking about 1x1, I am talking about 8x8 or 12x12 real life scenarios on real maps.

- 12 vs 12 not supported on PTS. Also FW not supported too. 8 vs 8 can be done in private lobby on any map from map list.

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

I ask these questions because I am unable to test it myself. And am glad there are people out there who can test these things for me.

- In nearly 3 days I have as much battle as possible and many test on hot\normal map in test grounds. All I found I wrote in my post. With suggestion and advice. I try to do more... but I need more good pilots who also well know most of mech with weaks and strong sides. Like - some models can be killed just by ripping of hands. No weapon... no battle.

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

(I dont mean to sound aggressive, I am just trying to figure out the system as a whole, but it looks like to me, that everyone is getting pidgeon holed into only a few choices of game play)

- I see. The whole system promising. Some tweaks need to energy pool for each class. Some cooldowns of weapon also need a slight changes. And it easy to manage in future, than review each weapon and each mech or quirk.

[xe N on]

ScarecrowES, on 22 August 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

Right now, ED makes meta stronger than ever, and mixed builds weaker than ever. There seems almost universal agreement on this. What so many are unwilling to accept is that there is absolutely no capacity within ED to distinguish between ways to do damage you want to encourage and ways you want to discourage.

Mixed loadouts? Oh, wait, you mean Gauss + Laser ... or large pulse laser mixed with medium lasers? It is still boating and not "mixing".

Real mixed weapon loadouts are actually multiple weapon groups designed for different purpose. For example: 3x SRM6 for brawling and + 3 ER-LL for long range ... or 3 UAC5 for DPS and LRMs for indirect fire support.

Heavier mechs should not stack more weapons but more different weapons for different situations.

Currently you only stack certain compatible weapon types to maximize your alpha strike. Nothing more.

Simple fixes that will give ED alot of more influence:

- increase the punishment for ED > 30 exponentially instead linearly.
- Adjust ED values for weapons based on their range and their relative strength.

Edited by xe N on, 22 August 2016 - 11:42 AM.

[Tiantara]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

Mixed loadouts? Oh, wait, you mean Gauss + Laser ... or large pulse laser mixed with medium lasers? It is still boating and not "mixing".

Real mixed weapon loadouts are actually multiple weapon groups designed for different purpose. For example: 3x SRM6 for brawling and + 3 ER-LL for long range ... or 3 UAC5 for DPS and LRMs for indirect fire support.

- Emmm... we have many mech in stock who have only lasers, or only missiles, or ballistic hardpoints and it fixed in them. They can't have any other weapon... so... they all bad? And if mech forced to have no only LRM but some SRM\SSRM on it... it's also not mixed build?
I think that mixed builds based on different group for each possible for that mech range. Long\Mid or Long\Short, or Long\Mid\Short... Force mech use all range in each situation in battle. Not fill it with one range one type weapon like "walking wub-wub-wubs" or "Longrange forever dakka untill we have ammo to do that"
Totally ballistic mech can have 2 different weapon... Long AC2 and some MG for light, and something big to do punch.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

Currently you only stack certain compatible weapon types to maximize your alpha strike. Nothing more.

Simple fixes that will give ED alot of more influence:

- increase the punishment for ED > 30 exponentially instead linearly.
- Adjust ED values for weapons based on their range and their relative strength.

This will not make bracket builds any better, but I do agree ED needs that change.

[ScarecrowES]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

Mixed loadouts? Oh, wait, you mean Gauss + Laser ... or large pulse laser mixed with medium lasers? It is still boating and not "mixing".

Real mixed weapon loadouts are actually multiple weapon groups designed for different purpose. For example: 3x SRM6 for brawling and + 3 ER-LL for long range ... or 3 UAC5 for DPS and LRMs for indirect fire support.

Heavier mechs should not stack more weapons but more different weapons for different situations.

Currently you only stack certain compatible weapon types to maximize your alpha strike. Nothing more.

Simple fixes that will give ED alot of more influence:

- increase the punishment for ED > 30 exponentially instead linearly.
- Adjust ED values for weapons based on their range and their relative strength.

Still makes no distinction for how that damage is applied.

3x isLPL or 1x isAC10 + 4x isML. Both have same alpha output. Clearly one is hands-down superior. In ED, how can you encourage players to use the mixed build instead?

[cazidin]

ScarecrowES, on 22 August 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

Still makes no distinction for how that damage is applied.

3x isLPL or 1x isAC10 + 4x isML. Both have same alpha output. Clearly one is hands-down superior. In ED, how can you encourage players to use the mixed build instead?

Less Energy Draw on Ballistics, or the IS ML would be one way.

[Tiantara]

cazidin, on 22 August 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

Less Energy Draw on Ballistics, or the IS ML would be one way.

- So, the pure energy mech must suffer... they have no alternatives...