167 replies to this topic

[AngrySpartan]

Wow, someone still believe that Ghost Heat is superior??? So far haven't seen any argument supporting this, except "Energy Draw stimulates boating and big alphas".
ED is still work in progress and tweakable. It has a sole purpose of closing the loopholes in the current system and it fullfills it perfectly.

ED is intuitive, GH - not.
ED has no loopholes, GH - a sinonomus of exploiting loopholes.

ScarecrowES, on 22 August 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

Still makes no distinction for how that damage is applied.

So far the biggest flaw of the system, though it could be fixed with a simple tweaking of the values:
-raise PPFLD weapons draw, by 50%+
-keep lasors the same or give them ED values depending on how fast they do damage
-reduce draw for splat damage

Just wish people can look deeper to the system and started to bring constructive critisism instead of whining.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 August 2016 - 03:38 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

AngrySpartan, on 22 August 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

Just wish people can look deeper to the system and started to bring constructive critisism instead of whining.

So having a different opinion than you is whining?

ED provides no reason to ever mix different weapons, that's its shortfall, and no amount of tweaking is going to change that.

Limiting damage like that, linking all weapons together, is a bad design.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 August 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

- So, the pure energy mech must suffer... they have no alternatives...

Why would the pure energy mech suffer? He just gave IS MLs even less draw. Thus, the clearly superior option is to just boat IS MLs. Same with ballistics... lower the draw on a given ballistic, it just incentivizes you to boat that ballistic. Even in the example I gave above, simply giving both the AC/10 and MLs a buff does not incentivize you to use both of those weapons together over boating each one individually...

...unless you can only receive the buff when you use them in combination or when each is not boated. Except ED can't make that distinction.

Hence the problem.

[AngrySpartan]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

So having a different opinion than you is whining?

Having opinion other than mine is something I enjoy. I especially enjoy that if there are some reasonable arguments. My point is - do not judge the system as if it is going live in the current state, it is still a subject to change.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

ED provides no reason to ever mix different weapons, that's its shortfall, and no amount of tweaking is going to change that.

Limiting damage like that, linking all weapons together, is a bad design.

Considering mixed loadouts - I would love to see them viable, as much as you do. In fact many of my mechs are bracket builds on live servers, even though they are hardly optimal.
Energy draw was not meant to make mixed builds viable, you are right - no tweaking will fix that. It is meant to close the loopholes in GH system, and it works perfectly in that sense.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 August 2016 - 03:09 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

AngrySpartan, on 22 August 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

So far the biggest flaw of the system, though it could be fixed with a simple tweaking of the values:
-raise PPFLD weapons draw, bu 50%+
-keep lasors the same or give them ED values depending on how fast they do damage
-reduce draw for splat damage

Just wish people can look deeper to the system and started to bring constructive critisism instead of whining.

Looking at any of the options you've given, we can predict exactly what we'd see from the changes.

Raise PPFLD draw? Sure. Gauss rifles and PPCs for sure get worse. Do we include ACs here too? If so, all ballistics get worse, and PPCs suffer. That pushes players into Vomit and Splat. What a coincidence, PGI did this in the live game in the Poptart era to effectively end that meta, thus spawning the two that followed. Oooo... and now under ED, both lasers and SRMs currently see significantly lower heat penalties than under GH, so punishing PPFLD will just make players gravitate back to the metas they're more familiar with anyway.

AND... you just decided to further buff lasers and SRMs. Awesome. So not only is vomit already better in ED than on the live server, but you made it an even better option by comparison to PPFLD and lightyears ahead of mixed builds. Splat too.

Still haven't found a way to make players not want to take the most optimized and powerful builds and take a mixed build instead. But at least we're closer to the current meta.

And again, this is the reality of ED. You CAN'T use the system to balance builds, because no part of it is designed to do that.

[Steve Pryde]

Both of them are crap. Energy draw a little bit more beause brawling mechs are dead with that system.

[Gas Guzzler]

AngrySpartan, on 22 August 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Considering mixed loadouts - I would love to see them viable, as much as you do. In fact many of my mechs are bracket builds on live servers, even though they are hardly optimal.
Energy draw was not meant to make mixed builds viable, you are right - no tweaking will fix that. It is meant to close the loopholes in GH system, and it works perfectly in that sense.

At least the "loopholes" in the GH system (they aren't loopholes, they were part of the general design, GH was put into the game to stop high, perfectly synced alphas, which is why it was based on similar weapons, there are no loopholes, MLs + LLs is not a loophole) at least encouraged people to use different weapons to increase their firepower. There is no such encouragement for energy draw. You might as well boat weapons and fire in two volleys. TTK isn't going to change, but variety is down the drain.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 August 2016 - 03:16 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

AngrySpartan, on 22 August 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

It is meant to close the loopholes in GH system, and it works perfectly in that sense.

Noting that the loopholes in the GH system were designed specifically to discourage boating and encourage mixed builds by indirectly buffing those builds and nerfing optimized builds.

[Gas Guzzler]

ScarecrowES, on 22 August 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

And again, this is the reality of ED. You CAN'T use the system to balance builds, because no part of it is designed to do that.

It is actively discouraging it. Essentially saying "you can do this much damage at once". Why would I do anything other than boat mid-long range direct fire pinpoint weapons?

[davoodoo]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

It is actively discouraging it. Essentially saying "you can do this much damage at once". Why would I do anything other than boat mid-long range direct fire pinpoint weapons?

Hey dont forget these 75% cluster weapons cause we dont know that when aiming with lb10x rarely 5 pellets will hit center at half the optimal distance...
So worth.

Edited by davoodoo, 22 August 2016 - 03:30 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

ScarecrowES, on 22 August 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

Still haven't found a way to make players not want to take the most optimized and powerful builds and take a mixed build instead. But at least we're closer to the current meta.
And again, this is the reality of ED. You CAN'T use the system to balance builds, because no part of it is designed to do that.

I consider current live servers balance pretty good. Replacing counterintuitive, easily exploitable Ghost heat system, while keeping current balance? I say it's a win.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

At least the "loopholes" in the GH system (they aren't loopholes, they were part of the general design, GH was put into the game to stop high, perfectly synced alphas, which is why it was based on similar weapons, there are no loopholes, MLs + LLs is not a loophole)

Exactly this. It was made to "stop high, perfectly synced alphas". To stop pinpoint damage, to make it desynced. How's abusing 6ML+3LPL combo helps with that? It does not, that's why I call it a loophole.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

It is actively discouraging it. Essentially saying "you can do this much damage at once". Why would I do anything other than boat mid-long range direct fire pinpoint weapons?

Because you can do more damage burying enemy with tons of SRMs and LBX pellets at close range. That's why I believe splash weapons needs lower draw in the first place, to be competitive with PPFLD weapons.
As I see it PPFLD weapons should draw 1,5 their damage, whereas splat weapons 0,5-0,75. That difference should make them different, both viable at their role.

Yes, there are other things, those may be better than Energy draw. Like losing convergence and accuracy, bigger and more accurate alpha you have, or exponential increase in draw of similar weapon types, or whatever. Still, ED, even in its current state is better than GH we have now.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 August 2016 - 03:36 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

It is actively discouraging it. Essentially saying "you can do this much damage at once". Why would I do anything other than boat mid-long range direct fire pinpoint weapons?

In testing for optimization, I've found no reason not to. If you follow the timeline of my posting in this section of the forum, you can see my disillusionment in ED growing from pleasant surprise, to tenative approval, to minor annoyance, to outright horror.

First day of testing, I was experimenting to see how ED handled unviable fringe builds. "4xERPPC can alpha without overheating?! WOOHOO. Yes please. All energy weapons viable? Suh-weet! Oh, gauss rifles are fun again. But... I can fire 5xLPL alphas over and over again? Is it supposed to be like that?"

Second day of testing - meta builds. "Ok, so now I can have more vomit in my vomit and more splat in my splat. I thought this wasn't supposed to happen. Maybe I've just discovered a loophole? Nope, it's like that all over. Oh, and gauss rifles are decidedly NOT fun again. **** you, you popless tarts!"

Third day of testing - bringing my own personal daily drivers out of the garage. "Mixed builds AHOY! WTF?! Instant overheat in my burst builds? Ok, let's try more trigger discipline... not so hard. Fire, wait, fire, wait. What, I can't even double-tap? Ok, so now I'm doing zilch for damage. Wait... how are THEY doing so much more damage than me?! Oh... optimized meta builds not getting exponential heat penalties like under GH. Nice."

Fourth day of testing - soaking in the new norm. "Oh, I see everyone got the memo about PPFLD. Nice. Dang... is that guy rocking 7 large pulse lasers? Awesome. That's my ***** right there. Oh, wait. I'm dead. What happened? How is this guy still firing all those pulse lasers? So much for TTK. Oh good, my teammate just hit him with a ****-ton of SRMs. High alpha payback is a *****."

[ScarecrowES]

AngrySpartan, on 22 August 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

I consider current live servers balance pretty good. Replacing counterintuitive, easily exploitable Ghost heat system, while keepin current balance? I say it's a win.

Live balance is as good as it is BECAUSE of the "easily exploitable" (read: intended operation) ghost heat system. If you've been playing the PTS at all, you'll see there is nothing close to resembling the balance or build variety on the live server, and this will only get worse as optimization settles in.

[Gas Guzzler]

AngrySpartan, on 22 August 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

I consider current live servers balance pretty good. Replacing counterintuitive, easily exploitable Ghost heat system, while keepin current balance? I say it's a win.

Exactly this. It was made to "stop high, perfectly synced alphas". To stop pinpoint damage, to make it desynced. How's abusing 6ML+3LPL combo helps with that? It does not.

Because you can do more damage burying enemy with tons of SRMs and LBX pellets at close range. That's why I believe they needed lower draw in the first place to be competitive with PPFLD weapons.
As I see it PPFLD weapons should draw 1,5 their damage, whereas splat weapons 0,5-0,75.

You are on crack if you think we are going to maintain balance as good as it is now with this system. It is literally turning balance upside down.

No build uses 6 MLs with 3 LPLs, all the same, those builds have downsides. Their full alpha is ~300 meters and they run hot, brawlers and DPS push builds overpower them regularly, they are not a problem.

Hmm so what about the builds that mix PPFLD with SRMs. Atlas comes to mind. I guess we are all tired of the Atlas being the king of brawling? Or any other mech that we want to use autocannons with SRMs. Yeah you get some relief with the SRMs but the non-LBx ACs drive it up with their positive multiplier. So yeah, brawling on anything up to mediums and small heavies doesn't really look too good.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 August 2016 - 03:38 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

You are on crack if you think we are going to maintain balance as good as it is now with this system. It is literally turning balance upside down.

If it will go live right now - yes, you will be right. If weapon draw values will be adjusted? Than most of the builds would barely be affected.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

No build uses 6 MLs with 3 LPLs, all the same, those builds have downsides. Their full alpha is ~300 meters and they run hot, brawlers and DPS push builds overpower them regularly, they are not a problem.

You know what I meant - GH is easily avoidable by mixing weapons that have different heatscales, that's it. Yes, lasorvom TBRs and BL-7s are out of fashion right now, but both still can punch with 55+ damage/second in a single location. It's not the alpha size it's how pinpoint it is that matters. ED will make such builds to delay fire for at least a 1/5 second, which is a lot for hitting a moving target. Hence, less damage to a Single location = increased TTK. ED does not limit how much damage you can do, instead it limits how much damage you can do at a given moment of time.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

Hmm so what about the builds that mix PPFLD with SRMs. Atlas comes to mind. I guess we are all tired of the Atlas being the king of brawling? Or any other mech that we want to use autocannons with SRMs. Yeah you get some relief with the SRMs but the non-LBx ACs drive it up with their positive multiplier. So yeah, brawling on anything up to mediums and small heavies doesn't really look too good.

No problems with that, let's say:
AC20 will draw 30, 4SRM6+A will draw 24-32 energy (I assume values will be tweaked similar to what I suggested). ED will require Atlas to fire twice! That's twice more than now = twice more face time and spread. And as you said yourself - range matters. This build is viable only at less than 300m range.
BTW even now I do not consider AS-7 a biggest threat, KDK is far more dangerous.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 August 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

AngrySpartan, on 22 August 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

BTW even now I do not consider AS-7 a biggest threat, KDK is far more dangerous.

Have you been playing the PTS much? Kodiaks effectively neutered. Atlai not doing so hot, but they're still able to soak twice the damage as the Kodiak. Fights between the two are ending with the Kodiak overheated and dead and the Atlas cool as a cucumber. Granted, the Atlas is still putting out little more than half it's max damage, it's MUCH worse than on Live, but still better than the much squishier Kodiak.

[Gas Guzzler]

AngrySpartan, on 22 August 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

No problems with that, let's say:
AC20 will draw 30, 4SRM6+A will draw 24-32 energy (I assume values will be tweaked similar to what I suggested). ED will require Atlas to fire twice! That's twice more than now = twice more face time and spread. And as you said yourself - range matters. This build is viable only at less than 300m range.
BTW even now I do not consider AS-7 a biggest threat, KDK is far more dangerous.

Large slow moving brawler, 1.5 seconds of face time at close range, bad mech. The KDK uses an LB20 so will be much better offwith your suggested modifications, faster too!

[AngrySpartan]

ScarecrowES, on 22 August 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

Have you been playing the PTS much? Kodiaks effectively neutered. Atlai not doing so hot, but they're still able to soak twice the damage as the Kodiak. Fights between the two are ending with the Kodiak overheated and dead and the Atlas cool as a cucumber. Granted, the Atlas is still putting out little more than half it's max damage, it's MUCH worse than on Live, but still better than the much squishier Kodiak.

I meant live servers, wasn't clear bout that.

On PTS though KDK have superior range, except SB. Both SB and AS-7 carry basically the same weapon (SRMs + AC/LBX) and were hit equally hard. And for SB MASC give it a nice manuarability boost to fire from behind. Of course that matter only on small engagements, wouldn't work that well on 12v.12, in that specific case AS-7 is clearly superior.

ScarecrowES, on 22 August 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

Live balance is as good as it is BECAUSE of the "easily exploitable" (read: intended operation) ghost heat system. If you've been playing the PTS at all, you'll see there is nothing close to resembling the balance or build variety on the live server, and this will only get worse as optimization settles in.

You still treating PTS as if it goes live immediately. I wrote earlier - current PTS balance is not appropriate, it needs tweaking. No point to continue this argument if both you and Gas will keep being stubborn about that. It's not the final iteration, but it's easily fixable!

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 August 2016 - 04:08 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

Large slow moving brawler, 1.5 seconds of face time at close range, bad mech. The KDK uses an LB20 so will be much better offwith your suggested modifications, faster too!

Didn't get it, who will have 1,5 seconds of face time? If you meant Atlas - it won't. It will hit you with AC20 than start armor rolling, than will hit you with SRMs, that's it. Slightly worse than it was before PTS, but more than managable. Same applies to KDK-Spirit Bear (LB20+SRMs) and upcoming MAD-IIC Scorch - either fire twice and roll your armor in between, either receive heat penalty (though I agree, it will be less than on Atlas, but LB spread damage, so that is fine)

[MechaBattler]

Energy Draw. BUT I would say there needs to be a penalty to boating. Whether it be an increased recharge rate or just a higher energy draw cost. But it definitely needs to be addressed. For the sake of mixed builds at least. There's a few chassis that would greatly appreciate it.