46 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

First, a disclaimer: I don't necessarily think these are the perfect values, but rather a little more extreme than we need. However, I think we'd be well served by pushing to this point to get a good 1:1 comparison with the current values which, while I personally like, there are very valid complaints that they're too lenient.

The suggested values below are a fair bit heavier and will noticably restrict fire past 30 damage except in brawling circumstances; see below:

1: Gauss costing to 1.5 or MAYBE even 2:1.

A much higher ED costing for Gauss; a 1.5 factor would cause a single Gauss rifle to consume 22.5 energy, or dual gauss 45 energy (and thus 15 heat generated). In many ways, this seems more reasonable: It allows Gauss to stay quickfire and low heat, but makes combining Gauss with other weapons extremely costly in terms of heat.


2: Overdraw to heat penalty of 1:1

This doubles existing heat penalties. Firing 5 LPL's takes you to 55 heat. It's currently 57 Heat on live with ghost heat, so this is fundamentally identical. However, it avoid the Ghost Heat issue where you fire 3 then 2 at 0.5s with zero penalty or 3 then 2 at 0.49999s for 22 heat penalty. It DOES allow tactical firing of 4 LPL's(as an example) with a hefty but reasonable 10 heat penalty.


3: LRM and SRM costing to 0.6

This allows 50 points of SRM's/LRM's for 30 energy draw - 3xSRM6 costing 21.6 energy, and LRM's can fire up to 50 tubes in a volley without penalty (that being 30 draw). This is the first pillar of Brawl Buffage, as SRM's are a key component of brawling.


4: LBX costing down to 0.75 from 0.85

Further increasing the value of LBX vs. PPFLD AC, and making mixed LBX/Laser builds more worthwhile. This is the second pillar of Brawl Buffage, while making LBX's more viable vs. regular AC's.


5: Medium, Medium Pulse, Small, Small Pulse, cERSL, cMPL, and cSPL lasers down to 0.85

Effectively increases the no-draw penalty to 7 from 6, for 35 without penalty, but allows these lasers to be fired combined with other weapons more effectively. This is the third pillar of "brawl buffing"


6: PPC's up to 1.1 draw/damage

This means 3xPPC takes a slight penalty firing, losing some heat efficiency (and unlike ghost heat, this also impacts 2PPC+Ballistic builds), but makes 4xPPC builds significantly more costly (particularly considering the 1:1 overdraw to heat ratio). As a result, 3xPPC costs 33 energy, and thus generates 3 extra heat if fired from a full bar. Firing 4 PPC's costs 44 Energy, or +14 heat over it's already hefty 38. Given low projectile speed and things like zero heat dual gauss, this is hardly unreasonable.

Edited by Wintersdark, 21 August 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Tiantara]

- Longer range of energy weapon - longer cooldown.
- Longer range of ballistic weapon - slightly longer cooldown
- Longer range of rapid ballistic weapon - slightly more spread less cooldown.

- Medium range of energy weapon - normal cooldown
- Medium range of ballistic weapon - normal cooldown but longer if it has bigger caliber.
- Medium range of rapid ballistic weapon - normal spread, shorter cooldown but depending from caliber and jam chance

- Short range of laser weapon - shorter cooldown and little more heat.
- Short range of ballistic weapon - cooldown as is (because we have only AC20 in that category)
- Short range of rapid ballistic weapon - little shorter cooldown with little higher jam chance.

- Gauss - longer cooldown.
- LRM - as is.
- SRM - as is

[Wintersdark]

Case Study #1:

Atlas DDC, AC20, ASRM18, 2ML.

On PTS right now, the Atlas would suffer a 20+(36*.85)+10=60.6 draw alpha striking, for a 30.6 point overdraw and 15.3pt heat penalty. Now realistically people don't alpha the Mediums (or even bring them at all frequently), so if you take the ML's out you get 50.6 draw, 20.6 overdraw and 10.3 penalty. Still tough for a build fighting at a 270m max range.

With my changes above, that Atlas would suffer a 20+(36*.6)=35.6 draw, a 5.6 overdraw and 5.6 heat penalty - the heat penalty being halved with AC20/SRM18. Offsetting your fire between the AC20 and SRM's by 0.25s completely removes this penalty. With the ML's, it's adding 8.5 draw, so your alpha strike (not 76 points) is generating a 14.1 point heat penalty. Note that firing the AC20+ML (30 points), waiting the duration of the Medium Lasers and firing the SRM's (which in this instance is exactly the same face time as you'd have in live) means you'd have zero heat penalty.

A valid alternative for that DDC, though? Go to 2xLBX, ASRM18, and 2ML. Now you're spreading more, but drawing way less energy for much more DPS.

Now that DDC is drawing only 15 energy for the LBX20 vs. 20 for an AC20, so you can fire the 2LBX10+ASRM18 with only 0.6 overdraw - that's a short ranged spread alpha of 56 points with effectively no penalty at all, and the LBX's cost 4 heat vs. 6 for the AC20.


This means your standard brawling atlas is basically as per live with a sledgehammer hit that it can immediately twist away from.

Tiantara, on 21 August 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

- Longer range of energy weapon - longer cooldown.
- Longer range of ballistic weapon - slightly longer cooldown
- Longer range of rapid ballistic weapon - slightly more spread less cooldown.

- Medium range of energy weapon - normal cooldown
- Medium range of ballistic weapon - normal cooldown but longer if it has bigger caliber.
- Medium range of rapid ballistic weapon - normal spread, shorter cooldown but depending from caliber and jam chance

- Short range of laser weapon - shorter cooldown and little more heat.
- Short range of ballistic weapon - cooldown as is (because we have only AC20 in that category)
- Short range of rapid ballistic weapon - little shorter cooldown with little higher jam chance.

- Gauss - longer cooldown.
- LRM - as is.
- SRM - as is

Lets not look at wholly different solutions here. Post your own thread for it. I'm looking at discussing this set above (or minor changes to it) and how that impacts the game.

With that said, if you feel my suggestions above are not a good option, post some case studies showing the problems vs. current PTS/Live.

Edited by Wintersdark, 21 August 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Reno Blade]

I have to say I agree to the most of your comments and the general line of changes.

Wintersdark, on 21 August 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

First, a disclaimer: I don't necessarily think these are the perfect values, but rather a little more extreme than we need. However, I think we'd be well served by pushing to this point to get a good 1:1 comparison with the current values which, while I personally like, there are very valid complaints that they're too lenient.

The suggested values below are a fair bit heavier and will noticably restrict fire past 30 damage except in brawling circumstances; see below:

1: Gauss charge comes back.

Because of course it has to. I'm sad about this, but I think it's necessary or Gauss is simply too strong. Maybe this nerfs Gauss too much considering the range/cooldown/etc; but we'll have a strong point of comparison.

Edit: Alternatively, one could consider a much higher ED costing for Gauss; a 1.5 factor would cause a single Gauss rifle to consume 22.5 energy. In many ways, this seems more reasonable: It allows Gauss to stay quickfire and low heat, but makes combining Gauss with other weapons extremely costly in terms of heat.

I think removing the charge would just improve the edge-peeking and jump sniping (even with bad JJets), so I think we need to keep the charge.

Quote

2: Overdraw to heat penalty of 1:1

This doubles existing heat penalties. Firing 5 LPL's takes you to 55 heat. It's currently 57 Heat on live with ghost heat, so this is fundamentally identical. However, it avoid the Ghost Heat issue where you fire 3 then 2 at 0.5s with zero penalty or 3 then 2 at 0.49999s for 22 heat penalty. It DOES allow tactical firing of 4 LPL's(as an example) with a hefty but reasonable 10 heat penalty.

As we noticed the relatively low penalty of the current 0.5 heat per damage, I also think the penalty should be 1x or higher multiplier per damage.
I don't want to see mechs being able to use 3x large weapon (e.g. 3x LPulse or 3x PPC) often without a noticable penalty.

Quote

3: LRM and SRM costing to 0.6

This allows 50 points of SRM's/LRM's for 30 energy draw - 3xSRM6 costing 21.6 energy, and LRM's can fire up to 50 tubes in a volley without penalty (that being 30 draw). This is the first pillar of Brawl Buffage, as SRM's are a key component of brawling.

My optimal numbers would be 3x SRM6 or 2x LRM15.

Quote

4: LBX costing down to 0.75 from 0.85

Further increasing the value of LBX vs. PPFLD AC, and making mixed LBX/Laser builds more worthwhile. This is the second pillar of Brawl Buffage, while making LBX's more viable vs. regular AC's.

Are LBX not already at 0.75 same as other spread weapons (missiles)?

Quote

5: Medium, Medium Pulse, Small, Small Pulse, cERSL, cMPL, and cSPL lasers down to 0.85

Effectively increases the no-draw penalty to 7 from 6, for 35 without penalty, but allows these lasers to be fired combined with other weapons more effectively. This is the third pillar of "brawl buffing"

I don't think we need more than 6x MLaser. Even Light/Med mechs should have some limits.
My goal would be 5 ML (25 damage) as to go-to size.

Quote

6: PPC's up to 1.1 draw/damage

This means 3xPPC takes a slight penalty firing, losing some heat efficiency (and unlike ghost heat, this also impacts 2PPC+Ballistic builds), but makes 4xPPC builds significantly more costly (particularly considering the 1:1 overdraw to heat ratio). As a result, 3xPPC costs 33 energy, and thus generates 3 extra heat if fired from a full bar. Firing 4 PPC's costs 44 Energy, or +14 heat over it's already hefty 38. Given low projectile speed and things like zero heat dual gauss, this is hardly unreasonable.

I think we could live with 2x PPC or 2x cERPPC as a limit.
With some possible changes to PPC splash, this could reduce the power of the FLPPD.

Also possible to reduce power regain from 20/sec to 15 or 10/sec to reduce dps.

Edited by Reno Blade, 21 August 2016 - 10:58 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Reno, the reason for the limits as the are I'm my post above are due to how ED works vs. Ghost Heat.

In ED right now, short ranged weapons pay the same ED per damage as long range weapons. It's not about GH style limits, but how those limits function in combination with other weapons, because ED is global. The reasoning for lowering SRM's and short ranged lasers is to allow slightly higher alpha strikes with short ranged spread weaponry, because at short range you're not hide and poking, you're brawling. The combat is different.

On the other hand, long ranged alphas past 30 points are severely curtailed. This is necessary because at range you can just peek and poke safely, and dissipate extra heat. End result, getting your brawler in close to a long range ppfld build gives you a noticeable DPS advantage, while the ppfld build still gets his ppfld vs spread advantage.

[Tiantara]

- Ok... Well...
Lets take one of my favorite Atlas - AS7-K.
Weapon - 1xAC20 1xSRM6 4xMPL.
On live server I got overheat in intense brawling and really high heat jump when fire all weapon at all. Hot maps as Therma - just kill me.
On PTS I got 56% heat if I shoot all weapons at all and nearly no hard penalties for group brawling - (AC20+SRM6)+(4MPL). For test I prefer to take Caustic in case that FW maps a bit hotter than most of quick game maps.

D-DC best with SRM+double LBX even without medium lasers. Strong guarded by ECm build with medium-short range. Good to bring down non-dakka Kodiak or kill dire in brawling.

[Tiantara]

Wintersdark, on 21 August 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

Reno, the reason for the limits as the are I'm my post above are due to how ED works vs. Ghost Heat.

In ED right now, short ranged weapons pay the same ED per damage as long range weapons. It's not about GH style limits, but how those limits function in combination with other weapons, because ED is global. The reasoning for lowering SRM's and short ranged lasers is to allow slightly higher alpha strikes with short ranged spread weaponry, because at short range you're not hide and poking, you're brawling. The combat is different.

On the other hand, long ranged alphas past 30 points are severely curtailed. This is necessary because at range you can just peek and poke safely, and dissipate extra heat. End result, getting your brawler in close to a long range ppfld build gives you a noticeable DPS advantage, while the ppfld build still gets his ppfld vs spread advantage.

- Oh now I get it... But we already have some small mech who can use lowered brawling weapon as OP. Like oxide for example. So, even if we lowering penalty for shortrange, we need to lower a Energy pool as well to force shortrange fast light mech split their damage in 2\3+1\3 instead of giving them opportunity to make one alpha after another. Right now on base map like Bog - Oxide can make 7 alpha until gets overheated from 4xSRM4. Yes - he have limited ammo and low armor, but still.

Edited by Tiantara, 21 August 2016 - 11:13 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Tiantara, on 21 August 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

- Oh now I get it... But we already have some small mech who can use lowered brawling weapon as OP. Like oxide for example. So, even if we lowering penalty for shortrange, we need to lower a Energy pool as well to force shortrange fast light mech split their damage in 2\3+1\3 instead of giving them opportunity to make one alpha after another. Right now on base map like Bog - Oxide can make 7 alpha until gets overheated from 4xSRM4. Yes - he have limited ammo and low armor, but still.

Do the math, show a case study where this is a problem. Consider the situation of lights with 30pt laser alphas.

Lights are already underpowered overall, they dont need draw penalties as well. The Oxide for example is definitely not a beast as it stands. 4 srm4 is 32 damage, so it's largely unchanged vs. the PTS now and, for that matter, Live. The Oxide doesn't need to be nerfed more than it already is on live, particularly post rescale.

Edited by Wintersdark, 21 August 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[Navid A1]

Can I see a direwolf build that works under ED?

No 2xPPC,2xGauss I mean.

[Tiantara]

Wintersdark, on 21 August 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Do the math, show a case study where this is a problem. Consider the situation of lights with 30pt laser alphas.

Lights are already underpowered overall, they dont need draw penalties as well. The Oxide for example is definitely not a beast as it stands. 4 srm4 is 32 damage, so it's largely unchanged vs. the PTS now and, for that matter, Live. The Oxide doesn't need to be nerfed more than it already is on live, particularly post rescale.

- I do. Like lets take cheetah with max alpha - 6c-ERML. 2 alphas and you dead. If Energy pool = 20, pilot split alpha in 1\2+1\2 and have no penalty, as well as a little cool when weapon recharges. So, yeap, missiles looks better. Same - Locust with 6xML - 3 full alpha - you nearly dead. Splitting - make you fire nearly without limitation. So - the main idea of ED is: splitting most of alpha in each class into (2\3)+(1\3) or (1\2)+(1\2) of possible alpha.

[Tiantara]

Navid A1, on 21 August 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

Can I see a direwolf build that works under ED?

No 2xPPC,2xGauss I mean.

- Yeap.
Pretty hot but better than on Live Server = 2xGauss + 3xC-ERLL (pure long range)
Rapid\medium with protection - 2xUAC10(chainfire and preventing jam) + 4xC-ERML + 2xSSRM4

Both works pretty nice. But still - depends of situation.

[Navid A1]

Tiantara, on 21 August 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

- Yeap.
Pretty hot but better than on Live Server = 2xGauss + 3xC-ERLL (pure long range)
Rapid\medium with protection - 2xUAC10(chainfire and preventing jam) + 4xC-ERML + 2xSSRM4

Both works pretty nice. But still - depends of situation.

Gauss + ERLL is situational

UAC/ERML of any combination just overheats in the first second of real combat. Unless you use macro to fire at the exact moment... That is how complicated the system is.
Ammo weapons and energy weapons should be separated with gauss belonging to both groups.

[Tiantara]

Navid A1, on 21 August 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Gauss + ERLL is situational

UAC/ERML of any combination just overheats in the first second of real combat. Unless you use macro to fire at the exact moment... That is how complicated the system is.
Ammo weapons and energy weapons should be separated with gauss belonging to both groups.

- Yes. That is example of longrange support with team protection.
- UAC now works much better under chainfire not burst fire. Also that take off bad jamming effect. yes, its lower your DPS, but take less ammo and make longer play. Why not? I like that.
- Gauss its another story... its pinpoint sniper weapon. You can have it and 2t of ammo just for killing not for DMG or DPS. Gauss = kill. Kill right target in right time from right spot. Not to span on everything you see. So for battle - slow AC or fast chained UAC. mechanic changes - result a bit better. And still you cold enough in comparing with lasers. More of that - you shake enemy mech with every single hit. Good? Good.

Edited by Tiantara, 21 August 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[L3mming2]

Navid A1, on 21 August 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

Can I see a direwolf build that works under ED?

No 2xPPC,2xGauss I mean.

4 uac10's and dps with loads of dhs (you can fire for 4.5 sec at full dps if no jams and then you need to wait 1.5s and you can go again) in those 4.5s you can put 120 damage down range
you can keep firing past ED but then your heat mounts fast so only if it will net the kill..

6uac5s u can send 30 point alphas down range as fast as ED repleniches ... (ore faster if u dont mind extra heat)

yes its boating but lets get real, a mech like the DW only exist to boat ungodly amounts of balistics..

Edited by L3mming2, 21 August 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[Navid A1]

Tiantara, on 21 August 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

- Yes. That is example of longrange support with team protection.
- UAC now works much better under chainfire not burst fire. Also that take off bad jamming effect. yes, its lower your DPS, but take less ammo and make longer play. Why not? I like that.
- Gauss its another story... its pinpoint sniper weapon. You can have it and 2t of ammo just for killing not for DMG or DPS. Gauss = kill. Kill right target in right time from right spot. Not to span on everything you see. So for battle - slow AC or fast chained UAC. mechanic changes - result a bit better. And still you cold enough in comparing with lasers. More of that - you shake enemy mech with every single hit. Good? Good.

Or I could just boat UACs 4xUAC5s + UAC10.And it is more effective than anything you can come up with a mixed build.
ED encourages boating 1 weapon.

L3mming2, on 21 August 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

4 uac10's and dps with loads of dhs (you can fire for 4.5 sec at full dps if no jams and then you need to wait 1.5s and you can go again) in those 4.5s you can put 120 damage down range
you can keep firing past ED but then your heat mounts fast so only if it will net the kill..

6uac5s u can send 30 point alphas down range as fast as ED repleniches ... (ore faster if u dont mind extra heat)

yes its boating but lets get real, a mech like the DW only exist to boat ungodly amounts of balistics..

That is the flaw.
Its not just DWF... ED means just 1 weapon type... any other thing is meaningless.

[L3mming2]

Navid A1, on 21 August 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

Or I could just boat UACs 4xUAC5s + UAC10.And it is more effective than anything you can come up with a mixed build.
ED encourages boating 1 weapon.



That is the flaw.
Its not just DWF... ED means just 1 weapon type... any other thing is meaningless.

for a 100 t assault mech that has the hard points to do it? yes however gauss ppc snipers have there place too for the dire ...
other less heavy mechs can do stuff like 2GR and 6 C ersl for a second 30 p
ore 3 srm 6 and a second 30 p in 6 ml
ore 3srm 6's and a second 30 p AC20 + 2ml

ore 5 c SRM4 and 5CSPL...

all those builds work, even do they are not boats ...

3 srm4s and a AC10 works quite well to

Edited by L3mming2, 21 August 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[Wintersdark]

You still haven't demonstrated how mixed builds are impacted more than boated builds, andgiven this thread, under my numbers above.

Rapid fire UAC's are a bit of an exception, being DPS weapons that rapidly add small amounts of draw, so they can be more complicated.

However, SRM's and uac5's? Lasers and SRM's? Easy to work together.

For example, 4 ML SRM18 - that's 17 draw ml and 21.6 SRM's. You don't want to alpha, but if you fire ML then SRM at the end of the ML burn(or even mid burn), zero penalty heat.

Edited by Wintersdark, 21 August 2016 - 12:31 PM.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 21 August 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

You still haven't demonstrated how mixed builds are impacted more than boated builds, andgiven this thread, under my numbers above.

Rapid fire UAC's are a bit of an exception, being DPS weapons that rapidly add small amounts of draw, so they can be more complicated.

However, SRM's and uac5's? Lasers and SRM's? Easy to work together.

For example, 4 ML SRM18 - that's 17 draw ml and 21.6 SRM's. You don't want to alpha, but if you fire ML then SRM at the end of the ML burn(or even mid burn), zero penalty heat.

UACs do not add small amounts of draw.. they subtract instantly.

So your conclusion is Shadowcats, Shadowhawks, griffins, and wolverines work well?
Your examples are exclusively medium brawlers.... yes, those work.

What about Victors? BLR-1G? Highlanders? Kingcrabs? MAD-3R? WHM-6R?

All of those are screwed under this system (tested those... in real matches.. not controlled lobbies). Unless they go only 1 weapon type of 30 alpha. Those can only live by shooting and torso twisting... no target just sits there so you can calculate your UAC5 alpha and see how many lasers you can shoot next.

Mobility and fire power have always been the two balancing factors countering eachother.
When you normalize damage output across the board, less mobile mechs become useless, unless they go UACs.. or stay far away.
Clan mechs in particular will be hit the hardest, because their weapons are designed to have more damage over time, Yet the energy draw punishes them instantly.


Only ONE way to salvage this system, IMO. Separating ammo based weapons and energy weapons into their own "pool" with gauss belonging to both.
Then balance by further limiting the pool sizes.

Edited by Navid A1, 21 August 2016 - 01:04 PM.

[Tiantara]

- Marauder 3R - 2xLB10-X + 4ML why not. UAC force you to stay open and take damage to open torso. LB10-X make less pinpoind damage but more damage on whole target\targets with quick hiding back. If target have less armor or naked structure - your damage increase. yeah, that make battle a bit slower, but safer and longer.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Thanks Wintersdark, this is pretty much exactly my own take on what ED PTS2 should be. I was initally really salty toward PGI for not being closer to these numbers on first pass*, but I suspect there is probably some internal debate about where the ED values should be set, and they went with super simple numbers just to see how people reacted.

One thing to add though. PGI should absolutely not change anything else other than the relative draw values of the weapons. For the love of god PGI, only change one variable at a time, please.



* Since they obviously favor Gauss and PPC.

Edited by Vincent Quatermain, 21 August 2016 - 01:15 PM.