170 replies to this topic

[Davison]

Tarl Cabot, on 24 August 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

It is also an issue because it is an ON/OFF switch when a side torso is lost. It does not matter if the engine took crit hits 2X in the CT and one crit hit in the OTHER ST, there is no effect until one of the ST is completely destroyed.

That is the fallacy of sticking to 3 engine crits with how MWO is setup. Both c/isXL provide the same weight savings over the STD, but isXL occupies 2 more slots than the cXL but an IS mech w/isXL is disabled with loss of one ST instead of having a greater heat/movement/agility penalty than a Clan mech in the same condition? That is the major disparities between IS and Clan tech in PGI's MWO universe.

From a game balance standpoint, I certainly agree. It is a major disparity. Personally, I'm pretty glad that we don't have the whole boat of unfiltered Clantech in MWO's even numbers, massed fire environment. Much as I love my Battletech, giving on the details to provide a better experience is par for the course. In this case, increasing by a single "hit" on engine crits would be a good start. Maybe two? Dunno, but it might be worth a shot to see how it goes.

By "hits", so we're clear, I refer to any means that allows an XL mech to survive side-torso destruction. Treat it as one big component and increase health. Raise the cap to just above what losing a side inflicts... Literally whatever would work, for the purpose of this discussion.

Edited by Davison, 24 August 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[draiocht]

[mod]As some posts have strayed in their topic,
please be reminded to this thread's intention:
Inner Sphere XL engines.

Moreover, as many of the recent posts have taken a notably negative attitude,
please refrain from unconstructive, inflammatory, and inappropriate material,
as per the Code of Conduct.

Thank you.[/mod]

[jaxjace]

The6thMessenger, on 23 August 2016 - 06:14 AM, said:

So far, my experience with XL-Engine for my King Crab is quite debilitating, that one torso and then my mech is dead immediately.

I suppose that the XL-Engine isn't really for front-line build? Although my other mechs are Clan, which have XL-engines but would survive one-torso destroyed, whereas IS wouldn't. Simply they are too vulnerable when equipped with XL-Engine. In larger mechs, like assaults, they have large hitboxes compared to smaller mechs, making them the least advisable mechs to be equipped with XL engines.

But does anybody even use STD-360 engines? Those weigh so much.

I think it would be fair that it would take 4 destroyed critical engine slots than 3 to down a mech. That way it would be the same for the Clan by destroying both torso, just as the IS, without altering the size of the XL critical slots on the torso.

You are playing that crab wrong, its not an atlas, its a support mech. Stand just behind the atlas and pour dakka into what is shooting him, profit.

XL360 crab. (highly do not recommend this build) 6ac2 2srm2 2sml

http://steamcommunit...s/?id=622029134 was down to just the smalls at this one.

Ive also seen good work done with 4 uac5, dual 10s srms and lasers. Dual 20 is just kinda meh, powerful but meh,


The only IS mechs in the game that I put a STD engine in are the atlas, the stalker, and the thunderbolt. and if the stalker had a higher engine cap i would take the XL engine.

Everything else is just like, "why not" going faster, doing more damage, cooling off better? Hell i could care less about the ST fragility, i never die to ST, its always ct anyway.

Edited by jaxjace, 24 August 2016 - 04:56 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

jaxjace, on 24 August 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

You are playing that crab wrong, its not an atlas, its a support mech. Stand just behind the atlas and pour dakka into what is shooting him, profit.

XL360 crab. (highly do not recommend this build) 6ac2 2srm2 2sml

http://steamcommunit...s/?id=622029134 was down to just the smalls at this one.

Ive also seen good work done with 4 uac5, dual 10s srms and lasers. Dual 20 is just kinda meh, powerful but meh,


The only IS mechs in the game that I put a STD engine in are the atlas, the stalker, and the thunderbolt. and if the stalker had a higher engine cap i would take the XL engine.

Everything else is just like, "why not" going faster, doing more damage, cooling off better? Hell i could care less about the ST fragility, i never die to ST, its always ct anyway.

The fact is the KGC has some of the most F'd hitboxes in game, it is ABSOLUTELY possible to shoot the KGC's FRONT from 360 degrees EVERY direction and angle (check my vids if you don't believe me).

So putting an XL in it is a sure way to become a spectator early on.

It's just not worth it above T3 play...

[Flyby215]

Dimento Graven, on 24 August 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

The fact is the KGC has some of the most F'd hitboxes in game, it is ABSOLUTELY possible to shoot the KGC's FRONT from 360 degrees EVERY direction and angle (check my vids if you don't believe me).

So putting an XL in it is a sure way to become a spectator early on.

It's just not worth it above T3 play...

Depends your meaning of Tiers. I'm a Tier 1, I've never known anything else, having a full bar since inception and it has never gone down even a single pixel. To that extent, I happily play my King Crab with an XL engine; I find the heavier weapons, faster movement, and quicker torso twist more than sufficient to offset the genuine fact that I will die quicker. At the end of the day, my King Crabs have positive win-loss, positive kill-death, and my T1 is maintained.

Now, if you're talking about "competitive play", well, this is a different ball-game altogether that I want no part of...

Edit: Added quote

Edited by Flyby215, 24 August 2016 - 06:51 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Flyby215, on 24 August 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

"It's just not worth it above T3 play..."

Depends your meaning of Tiers. I'm a Tier 1, I've never known anything else, having a full bar since inception and it has never gone down even a single pixel. To that extent, I happily play my King Crab with an XL engine; I find the heavier weapons, faster movement, and quicker torso twist more than sufficient to offset the genuine fact that I will die quicker. At the end of the day, my King Crabs have positive win-loss, positive kill-death, and my T1 is maintained.

Now, if you're talking about "competitive play", well, this is a different ball-game altogether that I want no part of...

I call shenanigans. Your entire garage is all Jesters. All of them. Laughing.

[Flyby215]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 August 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I call shenanigans. Your entire garage is all Jesters. All of them. Laughing.

Sorry for off-topic. But seriously? You've discovered my plan for MWO world domination?! Aw nuts...

Edit: added quote

Edited by Flyby215, 24 August 2016 - 06:53 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Flyby215, on 24 August 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

Depends your meaning of Tiers. I'm a Tier 1, I've never known anything else, having a full bar since inception and it has never gone down even a single pixel. To that extent, I happily play my King Crab with an XL engine; I find the heavier weapons, faster movement, and quicker torso twist more than sufficient to offset the genuine fact that I will die quicker. At the end of the day, my King Crabs have positive win-loss, positive kill-death, and my T1 is maintained.

Now, if you're talking about "competitive play", well, this is a different ball-game altogether that I want no part of...

Edit: Added quote

Same here on T1, never been anything BUT T1, but I can tell the difference between a PermaT3 and below because they won't do anything but use the 'spray-n-pray' methodology to fire control and aiming, where as, someone who is skilled, or developing skill will learn the 'mechs and learn where to aim.

Now that I know you're sporting an XL in your KGC, whenever I see you I'll be aiming at your right side torso, the front hit box which can be hit, 360 degrees any direction, above, below, or behind, means you're a quick easy kill for me.

Sorry, the XL torso twist benefits mean zero when the hit boxes are so horrifically malf'd, especially on a 'mech whos torso twist, even with quirks, really isn't all that great.

The KGC SHOULD have received the same torso structure quirks as the Atlas, but yet again Russ/PGI fail at understanding their game beyond what appear to be their own personal favorites...

[Flyby215]

Dimento Graven, on 24 August 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

Same here on T1, never been anything BUT T1, but I can tell the difference between a PermaT3 and below because they won't do anything but use the 'spray-n-pray' methodology to fire control and aiming, where as, someone who is skilled, or developing skill will learn the 'mechs and learn where to aim.

Now that I know you're sporting an XL in your KGC, whenever I see you I'll be aiming at your right side torso, the front hit box which can be hit, 360 degrees any direction, above, below, or behind, means you're a quick easy kill for me.

Sorry, the XL torso twist benefits mean zero when the hit boxes are so horrifically malf'd, especially on a 'mech whos torso twist, even with quirks, really isn't all that great.

The KGC SHOULD have received the same torso structure quirks as the Atlas, but yet again Russ/PGI fail at understanding their game beyond what appear to be their own personal favorites...

Feel free to hit my XL! I've no shame in sporting it on the KC. [keep in mind I played the Catapult extensively back when it's nose was the size of a jumbo-jet!].

As I said, I'll probably die first; I often do (my play style is pretty aggressive/gamble-styled) but I wonder if that's the point. I walked into this debate because the OP was suggesting that the XL on a KC was so debilitating that all IS XL's should be redefined within the game.

I think an XL King Crab can be a successful member of the team, to a reasonable extent that would be extended to any other mech on the team, so long as it isn't played foolishly.

I generally send PGI angry feedback reports at least once a week [pretty sure I've been 'ignored' or been placed on the 'spam' list by now since they no longer respond to anything I send] but I do not agree with your assessment that the KC is in need of the same benefits that the Atlas enjoys.

The Atlas really should enjoy a lot of armour quirks, if for no other reason than it being an iconic tanky mech within the Battletech Universe. Even within the game the finest Atlas pilots are usually short range and often entail a generic level of respect (for no other reason than driving an Atlas).

The KC is not an Atlas, nor should it be. The KC should have some degree of quirks, I agree, to at least compete with the 100-ton Clanner monstrosity that has spawned recently. However, with significantly greater ballistic capabilities, higher mounted laser weapons, stouter form, much quicker torso twist ability, I think the KC is not a dead/useless mech by any stretch (normal gameplay, I won't touch competitive with a ten-foot pole).

Edit: Text revision

Edited by Flyby215, 24 August 2016 - 08:10 PM.

[jaxjace]

Come at me with your ST hunting bro ill rek u lol

in all seriousness its a bad mech, but I like you have only known T1

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

TKSax, on 23 August 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

I would bever run an XL engine in a Crab, its side torso can be hit far too easily.

like running an xl in an awesome back in the day lol

[The6thMessenger]

Flyby215, on 24 August 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

As I said, I'll probably die first; I often do (my play style is pretty aggressive/gamble-styled) but I wonder if that's the point. I walked into this debate because the OP was suggesting that the XL on a KC was so debilitating that all IS XL's should be redefined within the game.

I think an XL King Crab can be a successful member of the team, to a reasonable extent that would be extended to any other mech on the team, so long as it isn't played foolishly.

The KC is not an Atlas, nor should it be. The KC should have some degree of quirks, I agree, to at least compete with the 100-ton Clanner monstrosity that has spawned recently. However, with significantly greater ballistic capabilities, higher mounted laser weapons, stouter form, much quicker torso twist ability, I think the KC is not a dead/useless mech by any stretch (normal gameplay, I won't touch competitive with a ten-foot pole).

Well, to be fair, assaults have it worse than other classes with XLs in IS, with their slow movement and all, with all that armor and firepower, yet too vulnerable, wouldn't it defeat the purpose of being a walking fortress? Then again, i did indicated that this was on a perspective from an assault, or at least King-Crab.

I understand that this is perhaps worked around by adjusting strategies,

Would you settle for an LFE instead, or what if only Assaults require more engine critical slots to kill?

To that Atlas thing, i agree. What if King-Crab has 110, 115, or 120 tons instead? STD engine is heavy, i understand if STD-360 is not that used.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 August 2016 - 09:55 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Flyby215, on 24 August 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

Feel free to hit my XL! I've no shame in sporting it on the KC. [keep in mind I played the Catapult extensively back when it's nose was the size of a jumbo-jet!].

As I said, I'll probably die first; I often do (my play style is pretty aggressive/gamble-styled) but I wonder if that's the point. I walked into this debate because the OP was suggesting that the XL on a KC was so debilitating that all IS XL's should be redefined within the game.

I think an XL King Crab can be a successful member of the team, to a reasonable extent that would be extended to any other mech on the team, so long as it isn't played foolishly.

I generally send PGI angry feedback reports at least once a week [pretty sure I've been 'ignored' or been placed on the 'spam' list by now since they no longer respond to anything I send] but I do not agree with your assessment that the KC is in need of the same benefits that the Atlas enjoys.

The Atlas really should enjoy a lot of armour quirks, if for no other reason than it being an iconic tanky mech within the Battletech Universe. Even within the game the finest Atlas pilots are usually short range and often entail a generic level of respect (for no other reason than driving an Atlas).

The KC is not an Atlas, nor should it be. The KC should have some degree of quirks, I agree, to at least compete with the 100-ton Clanner monstrosity that has spawned recently. However, with significantly greater ballistic capabilities, higher mounted laser weapons, stouter form, much quicker torso twist ability, I think the KC is not a dead/useless mech by any stretch (normal gameplay, I won't touch competitive with a ten-foot pole).

Edit: Text revision

jaxjace, on 24 August 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

Come at me with your ST hunting bro ill rek u lol

in all seriousness its a bad mech, but I like you have only known T1

I play the KGC almost exclusively, it's not a 'bad' 'mech per say, but ANY 'mech that has "FRONT" hit boxes that can be hit from completely behind, needs something.

This isn't actually a case of "bad" hit boxes either, I misspoke earlier when I stated that, it's a 'feature' of the 'mech's shape.

It's a legged "saucer", a flat platform that any unskilled LRM ****** gets away with "extra" missile hits due to the shape of the torso, and the fact that the "front" CT has a hump visible from behind, and the right torso features a "hunch", that's also hittable from any direction, such that even torso twisting won't mitigate protecting these areas in the least.

These two unfortunate features, plus the limited speed with a standard engine, OR, the extreme fragility with an XL loaded, are what make me believe that it's an ASSAULT 'mech in dire need of some ASSAULT durability, ie: Atlas level torso quirks.

The6thMessenger, on 24 August 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

...

Would you settle for an LFE instead, or what if only Assaults require more engine critical slots to kill?

To that Atlas thing, i agree. What if King-Crab has 110, 115, or 120 tons instead? STD engine is heavy, i understand if STD-360 is not that used.

I'd be willing to try anything.

I just know the current status quo has a 'mech that "should" be an assault brawler (look at the quirks some of the variants have) left to molder in mediocrity.

[The6thMessenger]

Dimento Graven, on 25 August 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

I play the KGC almost exclusively, it's not a 'bad' 'mech per say, but ANY 'mech that has "FRONT" hit boxes that can be hit from completely behind, needs something.

This isn't actually a case of "bad" hit boxes either, I misspoke earlier when I stated that, it's a 'feature' of the 'mech's shape.

It's a legged "saucer", a flat platform that any unskilled LRM ****** gets away with "extra" missile hits due to the shape of the torso, and the fact that the "front" CT has a hump visible from behind, and the right torso features a "hunch", that's also hittable from any direction, such that even torso twisting won't mitigate protecting these areas in the least.

These two unfortunate features, plus the limited speed with a standard engine, OR, the extreme fragility with an XL loaded, are what make me believe that it's an ASSAULT 'mech in dire need of some ASSAULT durability, ie: Atlas level torso quirks.

I'd be willing to try anything.

I just know the current status quo has a 'mech that "should" be an assault brawler (look at the quirks some of the variants have) left to molder in mediocrity.

To be fair, it's not just being an assault brawler, this permeates as a general vulnerability of the king-crab. Hell, if he gets close with a plethora of weapons, like a 4 UAC5, he's gonna do a lot of damage most of the time than whatever he's hammering down -- probably lose to a Direwolf with 6 AC5s.

But then you can still be burst down by afar, from a rain of LRM -- imagine an LRM80 Ebon Jaguar with a lock on you, worse a NARC, and Polar Highlands -- yeah say good bye to your King-Crab. Point is that, never mind the Assault-Brawling when he's less likely to get there, alive, or fresh. Possible yes, and with luck you can get good maps that can hide from LRMs like Viridian Bog, but hard.


If this XL-Engine thing won't fly, at least i'd add 10 (good),15 (better),20 (best) tons to king-crab, which can either be allotted to extra armor for durability, or heavier non-xl engine for speed without sacrificing so much tonnage.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 25 August 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The6thMessenger, on 23 August 2016 - 06:38 AM, said:

As well as they cannot use Omnipods, which prevents that insane versatility OmniMechs offer.

I always get a kick out of this. Do you seriously believe that Clan OmniMechs get more versatility than IS mechs? I mean the Warhawk has an entire torso of locked DHS whether you want them or not. The Stormcrow has like 3 open DHS slots in its engine that can't be filled because they are locked. Most people think the Madcat is over-engined but it can't swap out it engine for a smaller one. Direwolf has more free tonnage than it often knows what to do with and often would benefit from mounting a standard 300 engine but can't do it. The only thing Clan OmniMechs can do is shift around often very, very limited hardpoints. I mean I would absolutely love to mount 2 ER ML on both my Adders arms but guess what, you can't mount more than 1 Energy weapon on each arm. How it that any less restrictive than IS mechs? All I can say is the Clan IIC versions are a massive breath of fresh air for Clanner who actually longed for the customization Clan mechs are suppose to be known for.

As to IS XLs, honestly yes it is an issue but more of a convience thing than anything else. I tend to avoid IS mechs in most cases because I don't want to deal with having to try to fit a competitive build into a mech with a standard engine as oppose to having to baby my side torsos when using an XL. Honestly I don't necessarily feel it is as much a huge disadvantage as it is a royal pain to have to be so careful once the armor has been stripped because generally my IS mechs have the same numbers and kill counts as my Clan mechs. In fact, some of my XL mounted IS mechs are my top performers.

[Wecx]

XL Builds for IS mechs can be top performers, when i equip an XL i know im ethier going to have a great game or some gauss dual ppc is going to hit my side torso and pop me.

The question is: Would light XL help the game?

I think it would, i'd go googly for it.

[MauttyKoray]

El Bandito, on 23 August 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

For the King Crab? Std 360 is too much--try 325. For energy only mechs such as the Banshee? It is doable.

That said, PGI really needs to balance IS XL and CLan XL 1 to 1. Clan XL is part of a the reason why Clan mechs are so successful in the leaderboards.

No...please stop trying to balance everything 1-1. There is literally no point in having IS/Clans if everything is evenly balanced.

I agree that it is imbalanced currently, but LFE will be the IS counterpart to Clan XL (yes they need to add it I know, I really wish they would as well as the filler weapons for IS to remove the disparity between the sides) but removing the identity of the IS XL is a bad choice. The reason for taking it is risk/rewards, it has the low survivability of torso loss, but it generates a massive weight bonus.

Once they add LFE (yes I know its not 'right now' but hopefully they will) you will have 3 choices with the STD, an XL with high savings but reduced survivability, and then the LFE will take the mid-ground with less weight savings but survivability comparable to the Clan XL.

Now something along the lines of say, having the IS XL give a 'bonus' to mechs that equip it, something like +5-10 structure on the STs? Maybe... would have to be tested.

[Dimento Graven]

MauttyKoray, on 25 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

...

Now something along the lines of say, having the IS XL give a 'bonus' to mechs that equip it, something like +5-10 structure on the STs? Maybe... would have to be tested.

Hmm... Conditional quirk based on how you build a 'mech.

I like the idea, but it's very 'Clan like' as with Clans you, theoretically, can pick/choose your quirks based on what Omni pod you load, right?

Would that be acceptable to Clanners?

[MauttyKoray]

Dimento Graven, on 25 August 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Hmm... Conditional quirk based on how you build a 'mech.

I like the idea, but it's very 'Clan like' as with Clans you, theoretically, can pick/choose your quirks based on what Omni pod you load, right?

Would that be acceptable to Clanners?

Myself entirely so, as it would simply add slightly more survivability for IS XL mechs which we all know are extremely unviable currently outside of specific builds that don't get shot a lot or which have large amounts of firepower (which ED with affect) and thus are less of a 'choice' and more of a situational accessory.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 25 August 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

I always get a kick out of this. Do you seriously believe that Clan OmniMechs get more versatility than IS mechs? I mean the Warhawk has an entire torso of locked DHS whether you want them or not. The Stormcrow has like 3 open DHS slots in its engine that can't be filled because they are locked. Most people think the Madcat is over-engined but it can't swap out it engine for a smaller one. Direwolf has more free tonnage than it often knows what to do with and often would benefit from mounting a standard 300 engine but can't do it. The only thing Clan OmniMechs can do is shift around often very, very limited hardpoints. I mean I would absolutely love to mount 2 ER ML on both my Adders arms but guess what, you can't mount more than 1 Energy weapon on each arm. How it that any less restrictive than IS mechs? All I can say is the Clan IIC versions are a massive breath of fresh air for Clanner who actually longed for the customization Clan mechs are suppose to be known for.

As to IS XLs, honestly yes it is an issue but more of a convience thing than anything else. I tend to avoid IS mechs in most cases because I don't want to deal with having to try to fit a competitive build into a mech with a standard engine as oppose to having to baby my side torsos when using an XL. Honestly I don't necessarily feel it is as much a huge disadvantage as it is a royal pain to have to be so careful once the armor has been stripped because generally my IS mechs have the same numbers and kill counts as my Clan mechs. In fact, some of my XL mounted IS mechs are my top performers.

OmniMechs are known for being cheaply customizable and flexible because of that economy. Being able to refit for less money and less time is what made them flexible on the battlefield. They are not known for being more flexible in absolute terms, though, since you can do more to a BattleMech given enough time and money.

Because there is no economy in MWO, the chief advantage of an OmniMech is not applicable to this game. Omni-tech is just flavor just like isXLs going boom is flavor and enforcing homogeneous tech is flavor.

MauttyKoray, on 25 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

Now something along the lines of say, having the IS XL give a 'bonus' to mechs that equip it, something like +5-10 structure on the STs? Maybe... would have to be tested.

I think I mentioned similar on Page 3...

Yeonne Greene, on 23 August 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

[is]XL should only grant durability to the sides.

STD [clan+is] should grant durability to all three parts, and provide a cooling bonus. The issue with STD engines is that, if you want solid firepower, you must be slow and overly hot. To make it more than a niche option only taken when a given 'Mech is pigeon-holed into it, it needs to be straight durable enough that it off-sets the damage mitigation you lose from going slower and the cooling you lose by being heavier.