92 replies to this topic

[Arc Welder]

Another idea about balance. First of all I want to say this is a great game guys keep it up. I want to weigh in on the weight of the world. How many of the "winners" are higher tier players playing alt accounts to run in the lower tiers? For example dakkadakkamuhamadjihad. Please find a way to end this cheezy cheat. Also this name is offensive considering the state of global affairs. It represents an ideology that needs to be exterminated with extreme prejudice. Delete this account and any others at that IP.

[Hunka Junk]

DaZur, on 23 August 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

All men are created equal in the eyes of their creator... Mechs are not.

There will always be apex designs that supersede others. Please let's stop trying to make Porches out of Yugos.

Totally agree. Ever tried having a BBQ party on the top of a Yugo?

It blows.

[DaZur]

XtremWarrior, on 24 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Yes, and? No races in SC2 will win more often than an other (even with different units, which seems to give you troubles no one else understand): that's called balance.

Who's talking about equality (or equity lol)? Balance means: in this or that situation, THIS Mech will be better and THAT Mech worse, but for other things, THAT Mech will be better and THIS Mech worse; which means that, in general, they're the same because they both have downsides. Even if one of the two Mechs is better in 80% situations and the other in only 20%, it could still be balanced if the 1st one has a small bonus pretty often, and the other a really big one on a very few occasions.
It's all about average.

What's the downside of KDK, please? His fast engine? His high mounted hardpoints? The 50 Tons you can put in weapons loadout? Please tell me, cuz i really have no clue.

But honestly, your answer makes me wonder if you do understand the meaning of balance in video-games at all.

"No offense but if you think your comparisons are at all balanced, I don't know what to tell you". <= you're funny!

Alright smarty pants... Using my example of the same mech with divergent hard points, how do you balance them THEN balance them against all mechs in all classes? Right, it's almost impossible...

We're not dealing with a static unit with a fixed meta. Each mech and each class have a limitless diversity (thanks to the mech lab) and their meta is all over the board. You would quite literally have to balance every mech configuration against not only it's chassis stable but every other mech in the game at a granular level.

If you can't understand how a fixed meta and a dynamic meta are diametrically different... I still can't help you.

[Idealsuspect]

Freebrewer Bmore, on 23 August 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

By now I know PGI has amassed enough data for this balance problem to be obvious, yet I see nothing in the new patch fixing it.

They have data since years well they cant balance this game and more they can't balance each mechs by giving them quirks you can wait 10 more patch it won't really change... you want give fire to kodiaks? simple buy a kodiak and do it.

[XtremWarrior]

DaZur, on 24 August 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Alright smarty pants... Using my example of the same mech with divergent hard points, how do you balance them THEN balance them against all mechs in all classes? Right, it's almost impossible...

We're not dealing with a static unit with a fixed meta. Each mech and each class have a limitless diversity (thanks to the mech lab) and their meta is all over the board. You would quite literally have to balance every mech configuration against not only it's chassis stable but every other mech in the game at a granular level.

If you can't understand how a fixed meta and a dynamic meta are diametrically different... I still can't help you.

"Smarty pants"? Don't try to soften me with smooth words!

But to the point: ok, i can understand the difference you see (even though you didn't respond to my question).

Thing is those hardpoints are not magically appearing, they are made by the developers who "should" (quotes are needed) know how they're gonna impact the game, as we, players, can tell rather quickly.

For PGI's credit, quirks have done quite a good job at balancing Mech chassis and variants across the board. First, remove all quirks on the KDK-3; then, if it's still over performing, give it minor negative ones - even though i really don't like those.

There are solutions, but as long as people won't even acknowledge for the Mech's superiority on his rivals, nothing can be done.
I don't mind KDK to be the #1 assault Mech cuz there need to be one, but i do mind it getting 20% better scores than the 2nd best assault Mech, and almost 50% better scores than the whole Assault class average.

Edited by XtremWarrior, 24 August 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[XtremWarrior]

Arc Welder, on 24 August 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Another idea about balance. First of all I want to say this is a great game guys keep it up. I want to weigh in on the weight of the world. How many of the "winners" are higher tier players playing alt accounts to run in the lower tiers? For example dakkadakkamuhamadjihad. Please find a way to end this cheezy cheat. Also this name is offensive considering the state of global affairs. It represents an ideology that needs to be exterminated with extreme prejudice. Delete this account and any others at that IP.

It's a reference to a movie: Team America...
Even I, a french guy living near Paris, don't find that offensive.

[DaZur]

XtremWarrior, on 24 August 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

It's a reference to a movie: Team America...
Even I, a french guy living near Paris, don't find that offensive.

Careful... You might be accused of appropriating American insensitivity.

[operatorZ]

Bush Hopper, on 23 August 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

I am not sure either what can be done. As someone said already: the KDK-3 has no major quirks.

Nevertheless I think it is insane that of the top 25 assaults 21 are Kodiaks and of the top 50 assaults mechs 32 are Kodiaks. Bear in mind (no pun intended) this was an event across all weight classes and still the result is so overwhelming in favour of the Bears.

Da Bears!

[Kirkland Langue]

Bush Hopper, on 23 August 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

this was an event across all weight classes and still the result is so overwhelming in favour of the Bears.

The real tragedy isn't that the Bear is so far ahead of everything else.
The real tragedy is that Players even think that lighter mechs should be comparable in an event that is almost purely about damage inflicted.

[C E Dwyer]

Freebrewer Bmore, on 23 August 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

So you think this is possible in a week flat huh..

[Revis Volek]

Lyoto Machida, on 23 August 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

Ahem...those were singleplayer games you're referring to and not games against min/maxed builds online against humans.

NPC's also dont cry hacks when you find a glitch or learn to predict movements and attacks.


This is not even a good analogy.

[Revis Volek]

Kirkland Langue, on 24 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

The real tragedy isn't that the Bear is so far ahead of everything else.
The real tragedy is that Players even think that lighter mechs should be comparable in an event that is almost purely about damage inflicted.

Then what good are light mechs for in this game other then fighting?

If one chassis is bad at fighting other mechs and thats all this game has to offer then why have light mech in the game at all? Hell for that matter why not just have Assaults only?


Do you see now how flawed your logic is?

[Freebrewer Bmore]

Peter2k, on 23 August 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

nothing is going to get requirked until Energy Draw has been implemented

Dunno why ED should have anything to do with it. KDK3 is a problem now that could be helped now, via either quirk nerfs or a change in ghost heat for two weapons, neither of which should take much programming effort. If that quick fix attempt doesn't solve it, OK whatever, try again with the next patch. Not a real excuse for doing nothing tho.

process, on 23 August 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

The UAC10 loophole was closed, and the KDK-3 doesn't really have major quirks. What nerfs is it supposed to receive that don't affect the whole system?

Robot Kenshiro, on 24 August 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

UAC10 ghost heat has been added already, firing more then 2 spikes like crazy, double tapping even more so, firing all 4 shuts you down like you fired off 2 UAC20s.

Fade Akira, on 24 August 2016 - 01:48 AM, said:

Newsflash: 2 UAC10 and 2 UAC5 works just as well if not better.

This is why I proposed linking CUAC10 and CUAC5 (like LRM5 is linked in the same ghost heat group with the bigger LRMs) so CUAC5s will help trigger CUAC10 ghost heat if fired simultaneously but have a higher threshold for grouping CUAC5s on their own.

Is there a problem with "affecting the whole system" like that? I mean, how many mechs would really be significantly affected by further crackdown on more than 2 CUAC10's in a group? KDK, DWF, and...? Regardless, as people keep pointing out, "the whole system" is already going to be seriously "affected" by any upcoming ED overhaul anyway. What's the problem with attempting to make the meta a bit less miserable in the meantime?

Scout Derek, on 23 August 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

It's not a matter of that it's strong, it's a matter of fact that other mechs don't share the majority of pros I just listed for it.

Um, isn't "strength" a matter of having advantages that others don't share?

Kaveli, on 23 August 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

If left unchecked, the kdk3 can be one of the most deadly mechs on the field and until people make that connection then people will continue to lose to them.

That's a rather empty statement. If left unchecked, ANY mech can be one of the most deadly. The point of this conversation is that a certain mech has empirically demonstrated vastly more potential for this, presumably due to the variety of factors described here that make it more deadly and/or less susceptible to being checked.

DrxAbstract, on 24 August 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

So what's the balancing factor for KDK-3... Focus Fire? That's a cop out and you know it.

Exactly. Saying something's not OP because you can focus on it is a completely disingenous argument. By that logic, it's impossible for anything to be OP, because anything can be focused. The fact that you MUST focus on something (whether because of how difficult it is to kill it, or how deadly it is if you don't) is evidence that suggests it may be OP... and yet people here are trying to say the opposite!

"You just need to learn how to play against it! The Achilles' Heel of any Kodiak is where you dedicate your whole team to killing it!"


Now, the data I'd REALLY like to see is how win probability correlates with having more KDK3's than than the opposing team (and how that correlation compares with that of other variants)...

[Kirkland Langue]

Revis Volek, on 24 August 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

Then what good are light mechs for in this game other then fighting?

If one chassis is bad at fighting other mechs and thats all this game has to offer then why have light mech in the game at all? Hell for that matter why not just have Assaults only?


Do you see now how flawed your logic is?

Not how flawed my logic is - but rather how flawed the game is. I've long argued that the game should reward things much much differently, to encourage people focusing upon the strengths of their mechs - instead of rewarding only a single aspect of the game, and therefore players will want their chosen mechs to be buffed to be equal to every other mech on that one aspect.

It's absurd to a degree that's only exceeded by the number of people who actually think that it's reasonable. Why not have assaults only? That's a very valid question. If the game really only rewards one thing - then there really is no need for mechs other than those who excel at that one thing.

If you are going to give the same damage potential to lights, that assaults have, then shouldn't you give the same speed to assaults that lights have? Maybe drop the size of those mechs while you are at it too.

[Freebrewer Bmore]

Rock Roller, on 23 August 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

You all have missed the point. That includes the OP. The data clearly shows a desperate need to fix the VICTOR!!!!!!!!

Well, the thing with underpowered mechs is that the need to fix them isn't really all that desperate. People aren't rushing to play them, so they don't warp the game and ruin the fun for that many people. Plus sometimes fixing the dominant metagame presence will open doors for lesser mechs to become viable without specific buffing. For that matter I think there are better, more systematic ways to try to make underperformers playable than instituting a special-case fix for every one of them.

And I think that one point the KDK apologists(/denialists) keep bringing up actually does have some merit: It's true that not every mech needs to be equal... however I think every mech should have a cost for its advantages and a viable role and purpose for its shortcomings. Things shouldn't just be hardmode for the sake of hardmode... and easymode should be left to PVE.

DaZur, on 24 August 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

We're not dealing with a static unit with a fixed meta. Each mech and each class have a limitless diversity (thanks to the mech lab) and their meta is all over the board. You would quite literally have to balance every mech configuration against not only it's chassis stable but every other mech in the game at a granular level. If you can't understand how a fixed meta and a dynamic meta are diametrically different... I still can't help you.

Kirkland Langue, on 23 August 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

From the beginning of time (or at least the beginning of MWO) - I've advocated dynamic quirks that are based upon one particular performance/usage stat - and regularly buffs/nerfs mechs based upon that stat. While I believe that such a system is needed in MWO more than basically any other game (simply because MWO is at the nexus of impossible to properly balance, and not affluent enough to hire a team of balance specialists whose entire job is tweaking balance as needed), the community as a whole, and PGI in particular, do not like the idea. So instead we go about our merry way constantly requesting.. nay, demanding.. PGI manually tweak the balance of every mech and every weapon and every map.

Yeah, it's a pity. The game really needs SOME kind of dynamic balancing mechanism(s). I've always been a fan of assigning some sort of dynamic cost to mech selection (e.g. http://mwomercs.com/...w-pgi-saved-cw/ ), but there are other approaches that could work too (automated quirk adjustments etc.)

One thing that will keep not working is PGI's insistence that it can balance things with continual manual tweaks (much less keep them balanced as new mechs and maps and weapons and whatever are introduced.)

Edited by Freebrewer Bmore, 24 August 2016 - 11:18 PM.

[Peter2k]

Freebrewer Bmore, on 24 August 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

Spoiler

Dunno why ED should have anything to do with it. KDK3 is a problem now that could be helped now, via either quirk nerfs or a change in ghost heat for two weapons, neither of which should take much programming effort. If that quick fix attempt doesn't solve it, OK whatever, try again with the next patch. Not a real excuse for doing nothing tho.




This is why I proposed linking CUAC10 and CUAC5 (like LRM5 is linked in the same ghost heat group with the bigger LRMs) so CUAC5s will help trigger CUAC10 ghost heat if fired simultaneously but have a higher threshold for grouping CUAC5s on their own.

Is there a problem with "affecting the whole system" like that? I mean, how many mechs would really be significantly affected by further crackdown on more than 2 CUAC10's in a group? KDK, DWF, and...? Regardless, as people keep pointing out, "the whole system" is already going to be seriously "affected" by any upcoming ED overhaul anyway. What's the problem with attempting to make the meta a bit less miserable in the meantime?



Um, isn't "strength" a matter of having advantages that others don't share?

That's a rather empty statement. If left unchecked, ANY mech can be one of the most deadly. The point of this conversation is that a certain mech has empirically demonstrated vastly more potential for this, presumably due to the variety of factors described here that make it more deadly and/or less susceptible to being checked.

Exactly. Saying something's not OP because you can focus on it is a completely disingenous argument. By that logic, it's impossible for anything to be OP, because anything can be focused. The fact that you MUST focus on something (whether because of how difficult it is to kill it, or how deadly it is if you don't) is evidence that suggests it may be OP... and yet people here are trying to say the opposite!

"You just need to learn how to play against it! The Achilles' Heel of any Kodiak is where you dedicate your whole team to killing it!"


Now, the data I'd REALLY like to see is how win probability correlates with having more KDK3's than than the opposing team (and how that correlation compares with that of other variants)...

Please this is PGI were talking about
a simple adjustment in a XML file takes months to implement

Also it's actually not needed under ED
I can't just double tap endlessly quad U-AC 10 or 2 U-AC 5/U-AC10's on the PTS without steep heat problems

Look I know what you're saying
Just link the U-AC's together, can't be that hard (taking long) to implement that change

Not trying to be an a** here, but how long ahve you been around?

For instance

PGI acknowledged a problem with connection times
Had a fix ready and rolled it into the next patch (this one)
Couldn't be bothered to hotfix it although it punished those with many mechs
e.g. customers who bought lots of mechs

Many many things take ages to get implemented although it could be changed in a reasonably short amount of time


They will not bother
For PGI this will be taken care of with ED, and therefore a waste of time to touch something now

I'd wager every balance detail will be on hold until ED is live
Not saying I'm happy about it

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Was expecting something about the pts. left dissapoint

[Scout Derek]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 24 August 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

Was expecting something about the pts. left dissapoint

I stopped taking this seriously when people started shouting white knights protecting the KDK-3, instead of just counter arguments.


Kinda sad really.

[Weeny Machine]

Kirkland Langue, on 24 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

The real tragedy isn't that the Bear is so far ahead of everything else.
The real tragedy is that Players even think that lighter mechs should be comparable in an event that is almost purely about damage inflicted.

Yup, the game is TOTALLY different outside of the event. Scouting and info warfare are the decisive factors to win ma... oh wait.

[Kirkland Langue]

Bush Hopper, on 25 August 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Yup, the game is TOTALLY different outside of the event. Scouting and info warfare are the decisive factors to win ma... oh wait.

And so, instead of coming to the conclusion that PGI should modify the game such that different mechs can fulfil different roles...
.. you came to the conclusion that All mechs should have the same firepower.

Yes, I do consider that more unfortunate than any notions of "Bear is OP". Especially when you look at PGI's track record and understand that the Bear will be put down - just in time for the next big moneymakingmech.