303 replies to this topic

[Talos7]

I noticed a few people complaining about small 'mechs having too much energy vs larger 'mechs and assaults being bottle-necked with all their heavy weaponry.
Just a thought:
The energy pool could to be adjusted per 'mech class/ton and perhaps have an increase based upon its engine size as well.
For the sake of argument say a light has 20 energy, a med has 25, heavy 30, assault 35-ish energy points to draw from as a base pool. Then give the 'mech a small amount of extra energy based upon the size of the engine installed over and above the chassis stock rated engine per weight class.
This way a Jenner running a 295xl (245 stock?) might come out with a energy pool of 23-ish points. An Atlas running 325 (stock of 300) would also add a few points to its pool and end up with 39 or so points. But the Cataphract running its stock 280 engine would remain at the Heavy class pool of 30. Not sure if a smaller engine would result in a penalty to the energy pool, but it would definitely hinder high alpha high tonnage weapon builds.

This is just a thought on an already convoluted way to force players to stop boating weapons that can be easily alpha-ed over and over far too quickly. Honestly, i think a smaller heat scale coupled with longer recharge times would be preferable.

[Wecx]

Talos7, on 23 August 2016 - 09:34 PM, said:

I noticed a few people complaining about small 'mechs having too much energy vs larger 'mechs and assaults being bottle-necked with all their heavy weaponry.
Just a thought:
The energy pool could to be adjusted per 'mech class/ton and perhaps have an increase based upon its engine size as well.
For the sake of argument say a light has 20 energy, a med has 25, heavy 30, assault 35-ish energy points to draw from as a base pool. Then give the 'mech a small amount of extra energy based upon the size of the engine installed over and above the chassis stock rated engine per weight class.
This way a Jenner running a 295xl (245 stock?) might come out with a energy pool of 23-ish points. An Atlas running 325 (stock of 300) would also add a few points to its pool and end up with 39 or so points. But the Cataphract running its stock 280 engine would remain at the Heavy class pool of 30. Not sure if a smaller engine would result in a penalty to the energy pool, but it would definitely hinder high alpha high tonnage weapon builds.

This is just a thought on an already convoluted way to force players to stop boating weapons that can be easily alpha-ed over and over far too quickly. Honestly, i think a smaller heat scale coupled with longer recharge times would be preferable.

This is a really good idea.

[Crushko]

I think chances are high that we end up with a inferior Ghost Heat System 0.5. Now that every weapon has it's own values the simpflication that some wanted is gone out of the window. However the advantages of Ghost Heat like giving an incentive to not boating via unlinked weapon groups isnt there as everything is now basically a linked penalty group.

Also with the increased above threshold penalty, the system isnt subtle at all. It limits high risk/reward builds for Assaults. It will be all about "bring the mech that sustains 30 (20) DPS best", which can be super boring.

Edited by Crushko, 23 August 2016 - 09:58 PM.

[TheLuc]

now that i see more comments about the PTS and game play of the ghost heat 2.0 aka power draw, I'm worried that again PGI will mess up. Been so long that the players are stuck with current ghost heat most of us got used to it. I think its a great risk to change after such a long time with current system.

[Kmieciu]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 August 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

The problem is how is it fun to be choking on energy draw limits constantly?

How fun is to try to pack 3xLPL+6xML on every new IS mech or 2xC-LPL+6xERML on a clan mech in order to mitigate ghost heat?

PS. If those changes go live, the biggest difference will be the increased clan heat cap combined with clan laser buffs.
3xC-ERLL will change from a fail weapon into something formidable. I know I will put at least 3 on a Hellbringer.

Edited by Kmieciu, 23 August 2016 - 10:19 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I guess I would say this whole proposed change just irritates me because I built my mechs around ghost heat to be fun, effective, and distinctly non-meta. Then power draw comes through, and shafts all my non-meta builds that worked, and are forcing me to return to meta mechs that have now been gimped into supposed "fairness".

My single PPC shadowcat can't keep the damage up due to PPC cooldown increases (4.5 sec was fine, 5.25 is too much). My UAC/10, 6x cERSL Nova has lost all of it's heat effeciency so I might as well just boat lasers, and my double PPC summoner can no longer out-brawl other snipers, might as well just switch to gauss + PPC.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 23 August 2016 - 10:25 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 August 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

Pass that pipe you are smoking.

So... nothing to add? Color me surprised.

It should also be noted that C Mplas are essentially IS Lplas, and you dont typically see more than 2-3 of those per respective IS build, do you? Some persistent pre-conceived notions about Clan Lasers should be dispelled when approaching the task of building Clan laser vomits, such as being able to boat 7-9 IS Mplas meaning you can boat 7-9 Clan Mplas - You can't. Obviously you dont need many to match/exceed IS laser vomit output or hit the ED cap, and C Mlas will still be more effective for pairing due to being half the weight. Just depends on the player.

[Wibbledtodeath]

Just going to say that I did not agree with Kanajashi et al's feedback (in theory at least). I feel it is a little too restrictive-

But I think its great that it is being implemented on the PTS.

That's what the T stands for.

and for those worried about change- well, change happens- no fast enough for MWO frankly.

Edited by Wibbledtodeath, 23 August 2016 - 10:30 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Kmieciu, on 23 August 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

How fun is to try to pack 3xLPL+6xML on every new IS mech or 2xC-LPL+6xERML on a clan mech in order to mitigate ghost heat?

You didn't have to do that on clan mechs, there were plenty of fun combinations to play with on the clan side. IS was a little more pigeonholed admittedly, but this latest round of balancing changes, has been distinctly unkind to a lot of mixed builds I play with. I used to avoid laser vomit at all costs, but now I feel like I sortof have to use it.

[Kamikaze Viking]

I've just spent a few hours testing specifically SRM's (primarily using jenners and griffins) and I prefer the heat style penalties from PTS1 to the Spread Penalties on PTS2.

Heres why: I feel that it unevenly impacts the srm6.

the SRM4, SRM4a, SRM6, SRM6a choice is currently very well balanced and you see all of them used evenly on the battlefield.
in Comp you see regularly oxides with srm4 for dps. or jr7-IIC with 6srm4 (std srm bomber) OR 6srm6 Assasins. with the 6x6 a much riskier option with great rewards.

I feel the spread increase on the 6s negates the impact of the assasin as it spreads too much at all but point blank range. the srm4 and 4a's are still very strong even with the increased spread. And hence i would envision a majority of SRM users to move away from 6's and focus more on srm4a, reducing build diversity.

[Kmieciu]

DrxAbstract, on 23 August 2016 - 10:21 PM, said:

such as being able to boat 7-9 IS Mplas meaning you can boat 7-9 Clan Mplas - You can't.

Yes, you can. On a Timberwolf (9) or a Ebon Jag (8)
Tried it.
Decided it was underpowered compared do mixed LPL+ERML or LPL+SPL builds.
On production, the C-MPL is a fail weapon. Imagine a Cheetah with 3xC-MPL vs 6xC-SPL. C-SPL wins every time.
And for the weight of 6xC+MPL you can have 6xERML+1xLPL with better range and alpha, at the cost of slightly longer beam duration.

Edited by Kmieciu, 23 August 2016 - 10:36 PM.

[DAYLEET]

I like how the patch is explained. Very informative.

I kinda share people fear that the more it is tweaked per weapon the more it becomes a mess not easier to understand. A UI change where all weaponry have their energy draw and heat values with and without penalties shown in the lab is in order. Also dynamic update of the the values in the mechlab as you equip your mech with weapon, modules, overheat potential etc need to be shown. The Mech HUD should reflect this too, a weapon grouping should have a background colours representing its alpha heat. i dont want to go to another third party site to refresh my memory on ED when im trying to make something else than cookie-cutter meta.

[Kmieciu]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 23 August 2016 - 10:21 PM, said:

I built my mechs around ghost heat

Everyone builds mechs around ghost heat. That`s the whole point. Ghost heat was supposed to reduce alpha strikes. But you can still alpha strike 2xC-Gauss+2xC-LPL+4xC-ERML without any penalty, while firing 3xPPC will get you into trouble. That's dumb.

With the new system 3xPPC is 6 heat penalty. (11,97 with ghost heat).
2xC-Gauss+2xC-LPL+4xC-ERML means 64 heat if you alpha strike. But you can split the weapons into 3 groups and fire them in turns. 12 heat for 30 damage is still a good deal for 2xGauss.

With the hard cap of 30 alpha damage and 20 DPS. You don't have to change any of your builds. Just don't fire everything at once.

This system is a cure for hardpoint inflation. Mechs with lots of hardpoints are more desirable because you can stuff them full of light weapons and alpha strike to your hearts content. I feel MWO will be much more fun if the meta shifts from alpha strikes to DPS.

Edited by Kmieciu, 23 August 2016 - 10:53 PM.

[Hornviech]

And still the CERPPC is not implemented the right way!
15 dmg for 10 heat !

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Kmieciu, on 23 August 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

Everyone builds mechs around ghost heat. That`s the whole point. Ghost heat was supposed to reduce alpha strikes. But you can still alpha strike 2xC-Gauss+2xC-LPL+4xC-ERML without any penalty, while firing 3xPPC will get you into trouble.

I know, I know it's the whole point. What I'm saying is that this PTS isn't all around friendly to mixed builds. Some of them work better some of them work worse. I'm not saying "I built my mechs around ghost heat so don't make the game better, I still want to use my builds!" I'm just saying I'm frustrated with how the changes panned out. I also feel like the PPCs were penalized too much in the latest update of the PTS, provided you're not boating them.

I feel like boating them shouldn't be a requirement for using them effectively. They now have some of the lowest DPS of their range bracket and the lowest of the weapons in their range bracket that can't be fired in sets of three without triggering power draw.

cLPL does 2.67 DPS
Gauss does 2.24 DPS
cERLarge does 2.12 DPS
All PPCs do 1.90 DPS
IS Large Laser does 1.86 DPS
IS ErLarge Laser does 1.77 DPS

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 23 August 2016 - 11:14 PM.

[Aramuside]

Some of these are laughable... dual Gauss JM6 have 40 points energy draw? Seriously PGI?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Kmieciu, on 23 August 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

With the hard cap of 30 alpha damage and 20 DPS. You don't have to change any of your builds. Just don't fire everything at once.

This system is a cure for hardpoint inflation. Mechs with lots of hardpoints are more desirable because you can stuff them full of light weapons and alpha strike to your hearts content. I feel MWO will be much more fun if the meta shifts from alpha strikes to DPS.

No but I do have to change my builds. Only one of them has the issue of violating Energy Draw. The other two I'm most concerned about are getting shafted because of the second cool-down increase to PPCs (5.25 seconds) which came as (what I would interpret as) a misguided attempt to manage PPC boats (ergo mechs with 3 or more PPCs).

Further, if you want to talk about hardpoint starved mechs, one of those two builds was for my shadowcat, a mech I'd been struggling to find a build for, for months. The one a finally came up with ran of a single ERPPC and two Streak 4's. It's a blast and it's probably my favorite mech on live, but it can hardly preform on the PTS with it's ranged weapon's DPS being gimped so severly.

I don't want huge alphas and boat mechs to prevail over DPS and mixed builds, that's exactly why I'm dissapointed by the latest changes.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 23 August 2016 - 11:07 PM.

[Kmieciu]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 23 August 2016 - 10:54 PM, said:

cLPL does 2.67 DPS
Gauss does 2.24 DPS
cERLarge does 2.12 DPS
PPC does 1.90 DPS
IS Large Laser does 1.86 DPS
IS ErLarge Laser does 1.77 DPS

PPCs main problem is the projectile speed. The rule of thumb is: If your mech does not have +50% PPC velocity quirk, take lasers instead. DPS is not an issue for me. PPCs are so heat inefficient that they are limited by your mech heat generation, not their cooldown.

The only exception is maybe the Cicada-3C that manages to remain heat neutal with 1xERPPC (-50% heat, +50% velocity, -20% energy cooldown). I liked that little mech. With UAC5+ERPPC it was quite the sniper.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 23 August 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

Further, if you want to talk about hardpoint starved mechs, one of those two builds was for my shadowcat, a mech I'd been struggling to find a build for, for months. The one a finally came up with ran of a single ERPPC and two Streak 4's.

Sorry to say this, but I don't even know what you are trying to accomplish with your SHC build.
If you want to hunt lights take 3xC-SSRM6 2xSPL.
If you want to brawl take 3xC-SRM6+A+2xSPL or 3xC-SRM4+2xC-MPL.
For mid range I like UAC10+2xERML or 3 ERML if you drop ECM.
If you want to fight from distance just use 2xC-LPL -> that's definitely the most popular and deadly SHC build.

With all of those PTS changes, 3xC-ERLL will become the best SHC build. 33 Damage 33 Heat, shorter beam duration and best range among lasers.

Edited by Kmieciu, 23 August 2016 - 11:18 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Kmieciu, on 23 August 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

Yes, you can. On a Timberwolf (9) or a Ebon Jag (8)
Tried it.
Decided it was underpowered compared do mixed LPL+ERML or LPL+SPL builds.
On production, the C-MPL is a fail weapon. Imagine a Cheetah with 3xC-MPL vs 6xC-SPL. C-SPL wins every time.
And for the weight of 6xC+MPL you can have 6xERML+1xLPL with better range and alpha, at the cost of slightly longer beam duration.

Obviously it can be physically done, that isnt what I said. It's just not a good idea to because of ghost heat, which is literally the only reason the C Mlas+C Lplas was actually devised and it stuck because the Larges give some sniping power. The total alpha damage at range is marginally better and the longer beam duration leads to a bit of lost damage in quick pokes (And increases damage taken) while not being as effective against faster targets - The multiple C Mplas is still better in this regard.

As for the Cheetah packing C Mplas, that's a fail setup to begin with by nature of the chassis you've chosen: A Light. Name 1 Light without limited hardpoints or respective quirks where C Splas wouldnt be better. Lights suck at mid-range weapon bearing, always have. It's either a bunch of short range weapons or a couple long range weapons, which they're not that great with, since they lack the tonnage to support effective mid-to-long range builds without heavy quirks.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Kmieciu, on 23 August 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

PPCs main problem is the projectile speed. The rule of thumb is: If your mech does not have +50% PPC velocity quirk, take lasers instead. DPS is not an issue for me. PPCs are so heat inefficient that they are limited by your mech heat generation, not their cooldown.

But if this is true, and the heat does balance the weapon, then they should revert the cooldown increase should they not? Or are you agreeing on that point? I have a strong preference for PPCs over lasers and I'm willing to work with their shortcomings. I forgo an extra weapon to mount more heatsinks so the PPC can stay cool. I'm okay with that. I feel like I should be allowed that choice, rather than PGI hardcapping my DPS with a bigger cooldown.

Also I'm very well adjusted to the projectile speed. I rather enjoy leading my targets instead of holding a beam on target.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 23 August 2016 - 11:14 PM.