211 replies to this topic

[Osulf]

ScarecrowES, on 23 August 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

If MWO were REALLY a thinking man's shooter, then TTK would fall through the floor. The moment you made a mistake, you'd be dead... followed soon after by your whole team.

Games that truly rely on mental and physical acumen are very punishing of poor judgement. Moving to any system that takes away that punishment can scarcely claim to put any reliance on what sets "thinking men" apart.

No... I actually think people want to go as far away from a thinking man's game as humanly possible. Some may say otherwise, but as soon as you start wanting to expand the already very forgiving TTK in MWO, and restrict every player in how much damage they can do down to the lowest common denominator... you've lost any right to claim this has any resemblance to what a thinking man might play.

I get what you say and it is a reasonable point of view. However, MWO is like an arms race with people looking for the best mechs and builds. Hopefully energy draw will end this arms race and enable people to enjoy playing any and all of the mechs in the game equally. That is my hope anyway and what I see as being one of the principle benefits of the change.

[Johnny Z]

Nightmare1, on 24 August 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

I just hope PGI gets its act together. I think ACs have been nerfed a bit too hard in this latest go-around, and I'm not convinced that ED is moving in the right direction. I know that there's already some murmuring in my Unit from some of our better and more active pilots to the effect that they will leave the game if ED is implemented as is. To be frank, I'm waffling myself.

If your leaving because of balance attempts then good riddance. Seriously go away. Your friends threatening to leave to, cya wouldn't want to be ya.

Just a reminder this is about game play improvements. Try and stay real.

I am actually trying to make on topic replies here and reading other replies to see how this is going.

I cant find any problems with this Energy Draw yet. I'm looking though.

*New edit, I just tried AC 2, AC 5, AC 10 and they are doing great. After also trying 4 LL STK they seem balanced. Also tried 3 LL, AC 10 Orion also fine. All the mechs I tried with various load outs seem fine.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 August 2016 - 07:12 PM.

[Navid A1]

Johnny Z, on 24 August 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

If your leaving because of balance attempts then good riddance. Seriously go away. Your friends threatening to leave to, cya wouldn't want to be ya.

I am actually trying to make on topic replies here and reading other replies to see how this is going.

I cant find any problems with this Energy Draw yet. I'm looking though.

Jonny, you can't find ANYTHING wrong if it comes from PGI.


This is not balance change. They are re-writing battletech rules. and they are selling mechs based on those rules

Edited by Navid A1, 24 August 2016 - 06:42 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Oh, it wrecks face in PTS.
But 4v4 PTS performance is irrelevant.

Based on what I've tested... It will be garbage in a real 12v12 match with active matchmaking.


Also regarding LBX... Sorry. LBX is the worst.
Yet thanks to you, Russ thinks that LBX is magically fixed somehow. Even though absolutely nothing has changed... Only other ballistics now penalize you for using them.

I would be interested in those tests you did and how you decided it will be garbage in 12v12 situation. Winter spent alot of time thinking about various builds tested them and put conisderation into these builds and how they might end up, but we wont know the fully results until ED hits live. Thanks for your work winter.

I looked over your ammo thread and while interesting I dont think it is time for such changes yet. First get the ED system then reiterate ballistic weapons. Considering how long it took them to implement ED, do you really think an ammo capacity bar right now would be implemented correctly? Also it would seem that Reload Capacity is more fitting name.

While generally LBX are kinda bad on current live server even here people are using them and doing ok. Also conisdering its relative low energy draw compared to its damage potential in brawl engagements compared to the now nerfed pinpoint counterparts, I can see how they might perform better now. The main problem with LBX on live is its ****** medium/long range damage combined with its weight. Also getting into a brawl can be tricky on live servers.
In order for the LBX to be truly good we would need the ability to switch ammo. But that is a different story again. I can imagine IS LBX to get multiple shell mechanic like clan AC and then switch to a spread shot, that would be nice.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Johnny Z, on 24 August 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

If your leaving because of balance attempts then good riddance. Seriously go away. Your friends threatening to leave to, cya wouldn't want to be ya.

Just a reminder this is about game play improvements. Try and stay real.

I am actually trying to make on topic replies here and reading other replies to see how this is going.

I cant find any problems with this Energy Draw yet. I'm looking though.

The problem is the surrounding changes to the PPCs' Cooldown. It's a pretty big one if you ask me.

[Johnny Z]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

The problem is the surrounding changes to the PPCs' Cooldown. It's a pretty big one if you ask me.

Ok. I am having a bit of trouble with ERPPC's to but I cant say if its bad or I just need practice.

After doing a few testing grounds matches in various mechs this update seems perfect to me so far. Of course I havnt tried everything yet.

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Jonny, you can't find ANYTHING wrong if it comes from PGI.


This is not balance change. They are re-writing battletech rules. and they are selling mechs based on those rules

I have complaints to and happy to list them, but this isn't the topic for it.

I actually make a fair amount of complaints.

About Battletech, this is maybe the most Battletech this game has been on the very limited amount I have tried this update. Table top rules don't make battletech in a real time multi player game. Sorry to say.

Most of the Tabletop rules are in the game anyway, they just added a new mechanic that is very sim and true to Battletech, not like added snares and pink clouds like The Old Republic did for Star Wars.

This is what I mean about staying real, and trying to actually be helpful in making this game functional.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 August 2016 - 07:05 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

The problem is the surrounding changes to the PPCs' Cooldown. It's a pretty big one if you ask me.

Would be interesting to see a mech with PPCs for bursting at distance and also have some backup weapons for DPS. Dual PPC with 4 Mlasers maybe and ballistic/missile backup?

Edited by Twinkleblade, 24 August 2016 - 07:02 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Johnny Z, on 24 August 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

Ok. I am having a bit of trouble with ERPPC's to but I cant say if its bad or I just need practice.

After doing a few testing grounds matches in various mechs this update seems perfect to me so far. Of course I havnt tried everything yet.

PPCs received an additional cooldown nerf ontop of the global one they already got. This was in response to PPC boating on the first iteration of the PTS. The problem is that this hurt non-boat PPC mechs when they were already in balance. PGI should have stuck to simply increasing heat and energy draw to discourage too much boating. The cooldown was a harmful change.

[Navid A1]

Twinkleblade, on 24 August 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

I would be interested in those tests you did and how you decided it will be garbage in 12v12 situation. Winter spent alot of time thinking about various builds tested them and put conisderation into these builds and how they might end up, but we wont know the fully results until ED hits live. Thanks for your work winter.

I looked over your ammo thread and while interesting I dont think it is time for such changes yet. First get the ED system then reiterate ballistic weapons. Considering how long it took them to implement ED, do you really think an ammo capacity bar right now would be implemented correctly? Also it would seem that Reload Capacity is more fitting name.

While generally LBX are kinda bad on current live server even here people are using them and doing ok. Also conisdering its relative low energy draw compared to its damage potential in brawl engagements compared to the now nerfed pinpoint counterparts, I can see how they might perform better now. The main problem with LBX on live is its ****** medium/long range damage combined with its weight. Also getting into a brawl can be tricky on live servers.
In order for the LBX to be truly good we would need the ability to switch ammo. But that is a different story again. I can imagine IS LBX to get multiple shell mechanic like clan AC and then switch to a spread shot, that would be nice.

I appreciate his effort putting time into his tests.
And I know he is being honest about what he is reporting.

But that is jut 4v4 play. it is very slow paced... you can solo the entire enemy team all by yourself... 12v12 is different. Very different.

PGI could just adjust PTS to be 12v12 and then test these game changing things.

I'm an engineer.. I design large electric generators... when we ant to test a new control method, we consider the worst case under worst possible condition.

What PGI is doing is not testing... its just a 4v4 shooting gallery, with little difference to testing grounds with dummies. it is showcasing!!!

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Jonny, you can't find ANYTHING wrong if it comes from PGI.


This is not balance change. They are re-writing battletech rules. and they are selling mechs based on those rules

They are rewriting Mechwarrior rules, not battletech rules. If anything, this in practice is way more Battletech than what we had.

Gas at least is up front with it being a solid divergence from Mechwarrior tradition.

But you're clearly an IS player, if you feel Johnny can never find anything wrong with PGI. Lol

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Also regarding LBX... Sorry. LBX is the worst.
Yet thanks to you, Russ thinks that LBX is magically fixed somehow. Even though absolutely nothing has changed... Only other ballistics now penalize you for using them.

nerf the best or buff the worst, the end result is the same. LBX's where significantly buffed while many AC's where nerfed.

Ballistics can't be that bad, as Quicksilver is certain dakka is going to dominate the world, well, dakka and SRM/lbx brawlers.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

What's this PGI? :|

Heat disparity between the testing range and an actual match.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 24 August 2016 - 07:19 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

PPCs received an additional cooldown nerf ontop of the global one they already got. This was in response to PPC boating on the first iteration of the PTS. The problem is that this hurt non-boat PPC mechs when they were already in balance. PGI should have stuck to simply increasing heat and energy draw to discourage too much boating. The cooldown was a harmful change.

I am having trouble with the heat on 2 ERPPC, AC 5 Marauder, with -5% PPC heat quirk. Not to much trouble though. Tough call still.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

What's this PGI? :|

Heat disparity between the testing range and an actual match.

I don't know what it is but I like it. that's a crazy alpha for a medium mech.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 August 2016 - 07:19 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Johnny Z, on 24 August 2016 - 07:19 PM, said:

I am having trouble with the heat on 2 ERPPC, AC 5 Marauder, with -5% PPC heat quirk. Not to much trouble though. Tough call still.

I pilot a mech that only mounts a single PPC. It worked well and fit in line on PTS1, but the changes in PTS2 have gimped it unnecessarily. All I'm saying is that the cooldown nerf needs to be reverted. That's my only major gripe with the ED patch at the moment.

Well besides the bug I just posted.

[Johnny Z]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

I pilot a mech that only mounts a single PPC. It worked well and fit in line on PTS1, but the changes in PTS2 have gimped it unnecessarily. All I'm saying is that the cooldown nerf needs to be reverted. That's my only major gripe with the ED patch at the moment.

Well besides the bug I just posted.

ERPPC's may be on the weak side yes. Not for sure though because this is to new for me to be sure.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 August 2016 - 07:25 PM.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

nerf the best or buff the worst, the end result is the same. LBX's where significantly buffed while many AC's where nerfed.

Ballistics can't be that bad, as Quicksilver is certain dakka is going to dominate the world, well, dakka and SRM/lbx brawlers.

Nerfing the best is somehow buffing the worst?
LBX were not buffed.... LBX did not change, other ACs got nerfed. really winter?

Also Quicksilver was saying that boating ACs (particularly AC5s) is superior. He was saying mixing ACs and lasers has no point now.

[50 50]

@Wintersdark
Really appreciate your efforts, patience and contructive feedback here.
Has been rather informative.

I have never had any luck with getting matches on the test server but then I am not worried about testing damage output or how well the mech can take damage with testing ED so I have been using the testing grounds and loading up mechs with a variety of builds to see how they feel. Generally I have looked at boating the different weapons but have also looked at some mixed builds.

A quick note on the Orion 2x LPL + 2x UAC10 build. That still sounds quite viable. How does it perform mixing one of each weapon onto a trigger? ie. 1x LPL + 1x UAC10 on one trigger, then the same on a second trigger?

Generally, the builds on the test server I have been trying out have felt easier to manage and more effective than they are on live. I am finding the warning when firing over the draw limit very helpful in letting me know that I may be getting trigger happy and overall feel like I can get more out of the builds than I could previously.

Alternating between group fire and chain fire really helps to manage the heat much better than it did before and bring that heat scale back under control. With the warnings it seems I can ride the heat a lot better while still maintaining decent output.

[Navid A1]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

I pilot a mech that only mounts a single PPC. It worked well and fit in line on PTS1, but the changes in PTS2 have gimped it unnecessarily. All I'm saying is that the cooldown nerf needs to be reverted. That's my only major gripe with the ED patch at the moment.

Well besides the bug I just posted.

So that is why you are calling for only cooldown buff?
A mech with a single PPC to decide for the balance of a weapon used by a hundred other mechs?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Johnny Z, on 24 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

ERPPC's may be on the weak side yes. Not for sure though because this is to new for me to be sure.

Well ask Wintersdark, or Pariah Devalis apparently, we've been tweeting Russ about the issue.

[Navid A1]

Johnny Z, on 24 August 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

ERPPC's may be on the weak side yes. Not for sure though because this is to new for me to be sure.

Yes specially the clan version.

They should either reduce its draw to 12-13
Or they should keep the 15 draw and give it 15 front loaded damage.