41 replies to this topic

[Geminus]

Hello all,

I brought up what I am about to re-visit a long time ago. I think its time to dust it off and kick it around again. Last time I met with some serious abuse, I'm hoping to keep this civil and open minded.

OK.

So my understanding is that the intent of this Energy Draw system is to revisit and correct flaws in the Ghost heat, which was meant to slow down time to kill and make corrections for the ability to do pin point damage to body locations, which is something that does not easily happen in the battletech game, the game that brings us MWO, which we obviously all love, or else we wouldn't take to these forums so passionately.

The work of balance and weapons values has all ready been done for us in battletech, It is a balance of damage done by the weapon, vs weight of the weapon, vs range, vs critical space used, vs heat generated, vs amount of ammo per ton. Each weapon trades one of these things to achieve its damage. Each weapon fills a role. A PPC is long range and does good damage without needing ammo, but the trade is that it is hot, requiring heat sinks, and it is heavy. The AC 20 is good damage close up, but is takes a lot of critical space and gets low ammo per ton, etc. It's a series of trade offs.

But, the balancing act has been performed long before a MechWarrior game was ever created. Where we run into a problem is translating those values from a system where rolling dice determines hit location, vs aiming with a mouse and clicking a button. In this translation between mediums problems are created.

So to overcome them, PGI has made some changes. But, I personally feel that they were in the wrong direction. Ghost heat, nerfing heat sinks, gauss charge up, and now Energy draw, I fell, are re inventing a re invented wheel, and overly complex attempts to solve easily corrected problems using some different mechanics, as well as some systems all ready created in battletech.

The first issue is the heat scale. In battletech, there are penalties as you move up the heat scale. In MWO, there is only mandatory shut down at the top of the scale. MWO has chosen not to implement a system which at the core of the mech combat system, and this alone could slow down time to kill and cause players to be more thoughtful with their combat and mech builds. For example, along the scale at various points are the risk of shutdown as heat is accumulated, it is checked with a roll, ammo can explode, checked with a roll, the mech slows down, and targeting becomes more difficult (more on that). For implementation into MWO, I don't see random shutdown being enjoyable. I see ammo explosion as being frustrating and could appear random. But mech speed penalties and targeting penalties should absolutely be put in and could be a huge check and balance on builds and combat behavior. Implementing this into the heat scale would be a huge step in the right direction. In my opinion. But, has to go hand in hand with the bigger issue, the fix for pin point damage. The biggest change from tabletop to FPS, the one that makes the change in the all ready balanced weapons values.

So, lets address the pinpoint damage. How? Cone of fire. In table top, where the weapons are balanced (and table top IS where the game comes from, we just need to adapt it to fit the medium), the player rolls to hit, and then rolls to see WHERE they hit. Here we just aim and click. But if there was a cone of fire mechanic, their would be an element of unpredictability to shot placement. The stock targeting computers of these mechs were not accurate enough for stock shot placement. That is why the dice roll was made to see where the shot landed. This is replicated in FPS by cone of fire. We don't need to reinvent wheels. Walking makes the cone open up. Jumping makes the cone open up. Running hot makes the cone up. The hotter you run, the more the cone opens. The faster you move, the more the cone opens. This solves all the complaints. You don't need to desync PPC and Gauss, because of the cone there is no guarantee that they will hit the same spot. Jump sniping would require not only aiming, but incredible luck because the cone is going to open so much. This one mechanic solves all the complaints in this game without cutting weapons ranges, adding heat, adding energy draw and on and on. Combine cone of fire with the movement penalty from heat and the targeting penalty to cone from heat and we are there. Targeting computers, invented by the clans, allowed called shots, it allowed the ability to aim. So remove the current stats from targeting computers and instead have them give a bonus to the cone of fire. While standing still.

We have the test server. Lets test it. What do we have to loose? It makes the core fans happy. And it removes all the things that players are complaining about. And it meets PGIs intent. Please lets just try this instead of reinventing the wheel again. The cone is a tweakable adjustable value. There can be a base standing still amount of conal spread, then an increase as we pick up speed. An increase when we jump. an increase at 10% heat, 20% heat, etc etc. The values work in TT, they just need the right FPS mechanic to work here. This is it.

[davoodoo]

Also in fluff, ppc generated recoil and so did every ballistic.
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon
"Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil."

Its not lore breaking to suggest that firing multiple recoil generating weapons throws aim off especially hard which naturally would counter ppfld alphas...

[gloowa]

davoodoo, on 24 August 2016 - 01:50 AM, said:

Also in fluff, ppc generated recoil and so did every ballistic.
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon
"Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil."

Its not lore breaking to suggest that firing multiple recoil generating weapons throws aim off especially hard which naturally would counter ppfld alphas...

<remembers the first trailer, when the game was single player still, and how firing the ppc threw the warhammer aim off...>

[Geminus]

davoodoo, on 24 August 2016 - 01:50 AM, said:

Also in fluff, ppc generated recoil and so did every ballistic.
http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon
"Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil."

Its not lore breaking to suggest that firing multiple recoil generating weapons throws aim off especially hard which naturally would counter ppfld alphas...

I agree. And recoil causes cone of fire to open more. Again, an adjustable value. Gauss, no recoil, PPC recoil, Clan PPC has a bigger punch so it can have a bigger recoil. Clan ACs fire in burst fire, so they can have a burst recoil effect, tap tap tap. Another trade between energy high heat and ballistic low heat. Sure your ballistics are building less heat, but you have recoil to adjust for. More skill, more time between shots because you have to come back on target, longer times to kill. Lasers don't have recoil, but they have a long steady beam that has to be kept on target do damage in the same place, and with cone of fire, movement etc, that beam would be dancing around on target. Taking hits would open up cone of fire.

Edited by Geminus, 24 August 2016 - 03:51 AM.

[Greyhart]

I can't help but agree with this. It seems a reasonably theory that Cof will be a big step in solving the pin point damage issue, especially when that pin point damage is coming from multiple mechs at the same time.

I think these videos explain it well. http://mwomercs.com/...nic-video-demo/

don't see why it cant be tested. could be solely an effect of energy drain if people wanted.

Anyway I look forward to the people claiming that a CoF will take away skill. Of course a CoF is never an issue in other FPS's even the really competitive ones. can anyone think of another FPS that doesn't have CoF?

[Geminus]

Greyhart, on 24 August 2016 - 03:38 AM, said:

I can't help but agree with this. It seems a reasonably theory that Cof will be a big step in solving the pin point damage issue, especially when that pin point damage is coming from multiple mechs at the same time.

I think these videos explain it well. http://mwomercs.com/...nic-video-demo/

don't see why it cant be tested. could be solely an effect of energy drain if people wanted.

Anyway I look forward to the people claiming that a CoF will take away skill. Of course a CoF is never an issue in other FPS's even the really competitive ones. can anyone think of another FPS that doesn't have CoF?

Thanks for agreeing. And yes, I believe that pretty much every Tom Clany FPS had cone of fire. Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon etc.
And it DOES solve all the issues that are being addressed with the ghost heat and energy draw. (Unless I am missing something)

It also adds a layer of skill, in the mechbay. People will have to plan out builds more. Not all available tonnage will go to weapons and ammo. And if you do want to sacrifice balance for a damage dealing monster with low accuracy and high heat problems, then that is your decision, but you are going to see the trade off.

Edited by Geminus, 24 August 2016 - 04:20 AM.

[Greyhart]

Geminus, on 24 August 2016 - 04:19 AM, said:

Thanks for agreeing. And yes, I believe that pretty much every Tom Clany FPS had cone of fire. Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon etc.
And it DOES solve all the issues that are being addressed with the ghost heat and energy draw. (Unless I am missing something)

It also adds a layer of skill, in the mechbay. People will have to plan out builds more. Not all available tonnage will go to weapons and ammo. And if you do want to sacrifice balance for a damage dealing monster with low accuracy and high heat problems, then that is your decision, but you are going to see the trade off.

Yes with a CoF mechanic tonnage may be used in targeting computers rather than additional weapons, ammo or heat sinks.

dumping heat into a binary shutdown at 100% heat mechanic doesn't solve the problems

[Davers]

We are not getting CoF. It's just not going to happen.

Please ask a mod to move the thread out of the PTS discussion forum. It doesn't belong here.

[Signal27]

Geminus, on 23 August 2016 - 09:34 PM, said:

So, lets address the pinpoint damage. How? Cone of fire.

As much as I would like a cone of fire mechanic (just as other similar titles like World of Tanks, Armored Warfare, and War Thunder Ground Forces have already implemented), it's not going to happen in MWO. For one, there are a significant amount of people who act as if the idea is a sign of the antichrist because the very idea a reticle can be placed on a target and the shot goes elsewhere sends them into frothing at the mouth fits of rage. But the bigger influence on cone of fire never making it into the game is the developers have already said it would screw with hit registration, and given that MWO mechanics weigh heavily on exactly WHERE you're hitting a mech, that's a pretty big deal and pretty much a nail in the coffin for the idea. So I've given up hope on ever seeing cone of fire in MWO. I'll give you a like for bringing up the idea again, though.

Edited by Signal27, 24 August 2016 - 06:05 AM.

[davoodoo]

Well we can go with cone of fire or we can further nerf alphas, as 2 gauss or 3 ppc doing 30 were deemed too op already...it just wont stop until you cant fire more than 1 weapon at a time and problem will arise with ac20, gauss and cerppc...

[Redacted]
"there are no brakes on forceful sexual intercourse train"


Franchise is already ****** by mwo and its about to get worse...

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 03:41 AM.
inappropriate

[Geminus]

Signal27, on 24 August 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

As much as I would like a cone of fire mechanic (just as other similar titles like World of Tanks, Armored Warfare, and War Thunder Ground Forces have already implemented), it's not going to happen in MWO. For one, there are a significant amount of people who act as if the idea is a sign of the antichrist because the very idea a reticle can be placed on a target and the shot goes elsewhere sends them into frothing at the mouth fits of rage. But the bigger influence on cone of fire never making it into the game is the developers have already said it would screw with hit registration, and given that MWO mechanics weigh heavily on exactly WHERE you're hitting a mech, that's a pretty big deal and pretty much a nail in the coffin for the idea. So I've given up hope on ever seeing cone of fire in MWO. I'll give you a like for bringing up the idea again, though.

We have the test server. Lets use it. Lets get all the mileage out of it that we can get. Lets not say never. Lets not say it cant be done. The test server is an alternate universe where all things can be tested and tweaked. All things are possible.

Davers, on 24 August 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

We are not getting CoF. It's just not going to happen.

Please ask a mod to move the thread out of the PTS discussion forum. It doesn't belong here.

Lets talk about meeting the intent. Like I said, we all love the game, we all must want to see it be the best it can be, If we didn't then people wouldn't respond to me like Davers did. Cone meets the intent. It addresses all the complaints. If it was implemented, would there be a hiccup? Of course. Learning curve? Absolutely. Tweaks and adjustments needed? Without a doubt. But it keep the weapons as they were intended. Keeps the roles as they were intended. The more you think about it, the more it works.
For example, all over the forums you see talk about sniping Vs brawling. The loadouts and people using cover and how to stop it. Well, your never going to stop people from using cover, and nor should you try. But people say that its not fun when someone steps out from a rock, takes a shot and steps back before fire can be returned. With a cone of fire, you step out and you need to wait a moment before you can fire, you need to wait for the cone to settle after having moved. That increases time to be engaged. That or you fire a less accurate shot. By the very nature of cone of fire the farther away from target you are the less accurate you will be. You will need to take more time, you will need to devote tonnage to equipment to help keep your cone from getting worse, i.e. heat sinks, targ comp, command console, etc etc. Bralwers are closer so they can put damage on target better, but at the trade off of that, they ARE closer. They need all the armor they can get to stay in the fight, they have to keep volume of fire up, which means low heat weapons, which means ballistics, which means recoil causing the cone to open. It means taking hit causing them to shake and the cone to open. It means having to stay on the move, causing the cone to open.

You say my post doesn't belong here. I disagree. This is my feed back to the energy draw. I tried it. I explored it. I feel that it is a huge step in the wrong direction. I think that it will cause some players to be unhappy. It will cause some players to leave the game. Some will be fine with it, some will like it a little better, but we ARE re inventing a wheel again, and taking another step farther away from the core of the game. This is my constructive feed back. I am not going to rage and say its terrible. I am not going to troll and call names. I am going to present a possible alternate course of action.

For example. Gauss is a sniper weapon. That is its intent. It is a no heat weapon. Its balance to having no heat, good damage and long range is, It is extremely heavy. It takes up a lot of space. It gets low ammo per ton causing you to dedicate a lot of weight and space for ammo, and it runs the risk of exploding when it gets hit. That is a balanced weapon. Now move it into FPS and you can pin point aim it with other long range weapons, such as the PPC. This is allowing you to pinpoint 30 points of damage with a single click. Something that could not be done in the TT world, thus we are off the path of the original intent and need to correct. So projectile speeds were changed so they hit at different times. Charge up was added. CERPPCs got splash damage, range was reduced. Range was reduced again. Chance to explode was increased. Weapon lost Hit points. Energy draw introduced. All in an attempt to do what cone of fire achieves.

Edited by Geminus, 24 August 2016 - 06:40 AM.

[Davers]

Geminus, on 24 August 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

Davers has spoken. I am sorry to have offended you sir. Forgive me.

Lol knock it off. You know that this thread doesn't belong in the PTS Feedback forum any more than R&R or asymmetric game mode threads would.

[davoodoo]

Davers, on 24 August 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

Lol knock it off. You know that this thread doesn't belong in the PTS Feedback forum any more than R&R or asymmetric game mode threads would.

Its a balance thread on pts forums where we test balance feature??

By the same logic right wing opinion would be offtopic in political discussion

Edited by davoodoo, 24 August 2016 - 06:37 AM.

[Geminus]

Davers, on 24 August 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

Lol knock it off. You know that this thread doesn't belong in the PTS Feedback forum any more than R&R or asymmetric game mode threads would.

That was my initial non constructive response, it has since been edited and replaced with a small novel. I want to be constructive about this. I like this game. I play it excessively, I do my best to get them cash to support it. I want to see it thrive. I want to see constructive talk about making meet intent.

Edited by Geminus, 24 August 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[Davers]

davoodoo, on 24 August 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

Its a balance thread on pts forums where we test balance feature??

By the same logic right wing opinion would be offtopic in political discussion

No, this is a forum for FEEDBACK on currently imemented systems that are being tested. Cone of Fire is not being tested. Nor will it ever be since PGI decided 4 years ago that they weren't putting it in. So this thread is on the wrong subforum.

[davoodoo]

Davers, on 24 August 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

No, this is a forum for FEEDBACK on currently imemented systems that are being tested. Cone of Fire is not being tested. Nor will it ever be since PGI decided 4 years ago that they weren't putting it in. So this thread is on the wrong subforum.

And "we dont want this system and would rather see it replaced by..." is that feedback...

At this point ppl are wiling to negotiate, next step will be reasonable demands, next step negativity at system, next step negativity towards game overall, next step boycott, next step campaign against creators.

Edited by davoodoo, 24 August 2016 - 07:18 AM.

[Geminus]

davoodoo, on 24 August 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

And "we dont want this system and would rather see it replaced by..." is that feedback...

At this point ppl are wiling to negotiate, next step will be reasonable demands, next step negativity at system, next step negativity towards game overall, next step boycott, next step campaign against creators.

Lets avoid that. I want to come home at night and play MWO. With weapons that function as intended. Just as much as I don't want to see this post degrade into a defense of its very existence, and instead be about the merits of cone of fire and a heat scale with movement and targeting penalties.

Edited by Geminus, 24 August 2016 - 07:21 AM.

[Davers]

Geminus, on 24 August 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

We have the test server. Lets use it. Lets get all the mileage out of it that we can get. Lets not say never. Lets not say it cant be done. The test server is an alternate universe where all things can be tested and tweaked. All things are possible.



Lets talk about meeting the intent. Like I said, we all love the game, we all must want to see it be the best it can be, If we didn't then people wouldn't respond to me like Davers did. Cone meets the intent. It addresses all the complaints. If it was implemented, would there be a hiccup? Of course. Learning curve? Absolutely. Tweaks and adjustments needed? Without a doubt. But it keep the weapons as they were intended. Keeps the roles as they were intended. The more you think about it, the more it works.
For example, all over the forums you see talk about sniping Vs brawling. The loadouts and people using cover and how to stop it. Well, your never going to stop people from using cover, and nor should you try. But people say that its not fun when someone steps out from a rock, takes a shot and steps back before fire can be returned. With a cone of fire, you step out and you need to wait a moment before you can fire, you need to wait for the cone to settle after having moved. That increases time to be engaged. That or you fire a less accurate shot. By the very nature of cone of fire the farther away from target you are the less accurate you will be. You will need to take more time, you will need to devote tonnage to equipment to help keep your cone from getting worse, i.e. heat sinks, targ comp, command console, etc etc. Bralwers are closer so they can put damage on target better, but at the trade off of that, they ARE closer. They need all the armor they can get to stay in the fight, they have to keep volume of fire up, which means low heat weapons, which means ballistics, which means recoil causing the cone to open. It means taking hit causing them to shake and the cone to open. It means having to stay on the move, causing the cone to open.

You say my post doesn't belong here. I disagree. This is my feed back to the energy draw. I tried it. I explored it. I feel that it is a huge step in the wrong direction. I think that it will cause some players to be unhappy. It will cause some players to leave the game. Some will be fine with it, some will like it a little better, but we ARE re inventing a wheel again, and taking another step farther away from the core of the game. This is my constructive feed back. I am not going to rage and say its terrible. I am not going to troll and call names. I am going to present a possible alternate course of action.

For example. Gauss is a sniper weapon. That is its intent. It is a no heat weapon. Its balance to having no heat, good damage and long range is, It is extremely heavy. It takes up a lot of space. It gets low ammo per ton causing you to dedicate a lot of weight and space for ammo, and it runs the risk of exploding when it gets hit. That is a balanced weapon. Now move it into FPS and you can pin point aim it with other long range weapons, such as the PPC. This is allowing you to pinpoint 30 points of damage with a single click. Something that could not be done in the TT world, thus we are off the path of the original intent and need to correct. So projectile speeds were changed so they hit at different times. Charge up was added. CERPPCs got splash damage, range was reduced. Range was reduced again. Chance to explode was increased. Weapon lost Hit points. Energy draw introduced. All in an attempt to do what cone of fire achieves.

PGI envisioned a game where players would actively target components of enemy mechs. A cone of fire would defeat that purpose and be counter to their vision.

How many games have cones of fire on single shot weapons? CoF is commonly used in games with rapid fire weapons, where it takes very few bullets to kill an opponent. Yet, in those same games there are usually single shot, highly accurate sniper rifles. That's what we have in MWO- sniper rifles, CoF SRMs, and lasers that sorta act like a combination of the two with the beam duration often hitting multiple components.

[davoodoo]

Davers, on 24 August 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

PGI envisioned a game where players would actively target components of enemy mechs. A cone of fire would defeat that purpose and be counter to their vision.

How many games have cones of fire on single shot weapons? CoF is commonly used in games with rapid fire weapons, where it takes very few bullets to kill an opponent. Yet, in those same games there are usually single shot, highly accurate sniper rifles. That's what we have in MWO- sniper rifles, CoF SRMs, and lasers that sorta act like a combination of the two with the beam duration often hitting multiple components.

Then sorry but their vision turned out faulty.

1)they nerfed heat sinks
2)they doubled armor
3)they tried stat tweaks
4)they tried ghost heat
5)they try ed now

Exactly because you can target precisely what you want.
3 years(is it 3??) of different attempts and problem still isnt solved.

As for cone of fire in other games, oh idk.
World of tanks, world of warships, world of warplanes, warthunder in both modes, armored warfare, dreadnought(despite it being about capital ships...)
Everything within same genre as mwo

and even in fps, battlefield, heroes and generals, i avoid cod like fire so idk.
Its very rare to see game where any weapon is pinpoint accurate(especially during movement), newest doom railgun is only recent example is can think off tbh before that idk. quake with railgun yet again.

Edited by davoodoo, 24 August 2016 - 07:35 AM.

[Davers]

davoodoo, on 24 August 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Then sorry but their vision turned out faulty.

1)they nerfed heat sinks
2)they doubled armor
3)they tried stat tweaks
4)they tried ghost heat
5)they try ed now

Exactly because you can target precisely what you want.
3 years(is it 3??) of different attempts and problem still isnt solved.

There are other systems I would have liked to have seen (multiple crosshairs a la WoW for example). But PGI will never add CoF.

And for what it's worth, mechs died MUCH quicker in TT even with random hit locations than they do in MWO.