51 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

ScarecrowES, on 24 August 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Not sure if serious, so I'm just going to assume you are and say that pretty much none of that has proven true and has actually gotten farther away from those concepts since PGI started messing with it.

You now literally have GH incorporated into ED. That's ridiculous.

The system still needs tweaking, but at least some of these tweaks were suggestions by players on their own forums (and some of them from Twitter). PTS 3 and 4 should be better if we offer more constructive criticism and if both parties stay on point. I don't see how GH is incorporated into ED. Maybe I'm missing something here?

Gas Guzzler, on 24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

Ghost heat currently has a demanding lead. I guess it just leads to a game that is more fun.

You really like Ghost Heat don't you?

[ScarecrowES]

cazidin, on 24 August 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

The system still needs tweaking, but at least some of these tweaks were suggestions by players on their own forums (and some of them from Twitter). PTS 3 and 4 should be better if we offer more constructive criticism and if both parties stay on point. I don't see how GH is incorporated into ED. Maybe I'm missing something here?



You really like Ghost Heat don't you?

Did you miss all of PTS2's patch notes?

How PGI is tuning ED to allow only specific numbers of "acceptable" weapons of the same type, specifically punishing certain weapons so that they cannot be used together... so on. Every weapon getting a different modification of draw from straight damage to prioritize certain types of damage over others.

Everything that GH currently does.

It even literally applies ghost heat.

[AnTi90d]

Rampage, on 24 August 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

I never really understand all the emphasis some people put on the Steam numbers.. etc

Steam numbers have stabilized at 1k on average, at all times (4k total, per day.)

Any change from this stabilized number is a valid metric.

[Gas Guzzler]

cazidin, on 24 August 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

You really like Ghost Heat don't you?

Better than what is on the PTS for sure.

This game is fun, I don't want it to be less fun.

[cazidin]

ScarecrowES, on 24 August 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

Did you miss all of PTS2's patch notes?

How PGI is tuning ED to allow only specific numbers of "acceptable" weapons of the same type, specifically punishing certain weapons so that they cannot be used together... so on. Every weapon getting a different modification of draw from straight damage to prioritize certain types of damage over others.

Everything that GH currently does.

It even literally applies ghost heat.

...I thought everybody knew that PGI was going to adjust energy values from the start until they're at the right levels. Yes, some weapons are being punished, PPCs especially, but this is not unexpected. When this is over it will be much easier to understand than Ghost Heat and will likely have some component added to the UI to give players additional information.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 August 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Better than what is on the PTS for sure.

This game is fun, I don't want it to be less fun.

Why isn't it fun for you on the PTS?

[Wibbledtodeath]

cazidin, on 24 August 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

...How are the votes STILL close to Ghost Heat when so far Energy Draw is better explained, has a better and more visible presence on the UI, can actually accomplish what it's designed for with a few more minor twinks AND it hasn't been called Ghost Draw since we got to play with it on the PTS - which should really say something about it's quality.

Because there are a lot of conservative people in the world who hate change- even if its good. Because people can become very used to something- even if its bad. because most people voting have not tested it themselves (and as I would vote for anything but ghost heat really- I can't rate this poll because I have not tested energy draw 2nd ed yet)

One good thing is that at least progress HAS had more votes than stagnation- even if not by a lot.

[davoodoo]

Wibbledtodeath, on 25 August 2016 - 04:13 AM, said:

Because there are a lot of conservative people in the world who hate change- even if its good. Because people can become very used to something- even if its bad. because most people voting have not tested it themselves (and as I would vote for anything but ghost heat really- I can't rate this poll because I have not tested energy draw 2nd ed yet)

One good thing is that at least progress HAS had more votes than stagnation- even if not by a lot.

Conservative ppl hating change??

You do realise that {Godwin's Law} were conservative?? The ppl who thought that world was ruled by jews for centuries and wanted to wipe out entire religion... Btw they really pushed technology during ww2...

You want to generalise then at least make sure they are accurate...

And yeah, we progressed(or regressed if goal was to balance), from pretty balanced tt rules to ed which defies every piece of source material its based on and gets less weapon variety than gh...

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 04:38 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

cazidin, on 24 August 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

...I thought everybody knew that PGI was going to adjust energy values from the start until they're at the right levels. Yes, some weapons are being punished, PPCs especially, but this is not unexpected. When this is over it will be much easier to understand than Ghost Heat and will likely have some component added to the UI to give players additional information.



Why isn't it fun for you on the PTS?

For the record, having different values for draw on every weapon and then different penalties for every weapon is exactly COUNTER to what PGI said this system was about.

At this point it's literally ghost heat with a bar you have to play against all match, with a ruleset at least twice as complicated as what ghost heat currently uses. How is that, in any way, easier to understand?

Wibbledtodeath, on 25 August 2016 - 04:13 AM, said:

Because there are a lot of conservative people in the world who hate change- even if its good. Because people can become very used to something- even if its bad. because most people voting have not tested it themselves (and as I would vote for anything but ghost heat really- I can't rate this poll because I have not tested energy draw 2nd ed yet)

One good thing is that at least progress HAS had more votes than stagnation- even if not by a lot.

Progress works in two directions. Moving backwards just for the sake of moving at all is not the sort of progress that 50% of this community wants, it seems.

[1453 R]

ScarecrowES, on 25 August 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

At this point it's literally ghost heat with a bar you have to play against all match, with a ruleset at least twice as complicated as what ghost heat currently uses. How is that, in any way, easier to understand?

Piranha has stated plans to include a weapon's energy draw in its in-game specification U.I. Not sure why it's not in yet, but those are there.

The better question is this WHY DEFEND GHOST HEAT?!

Fire eight medium lasers and you generate more than twice as much heat as firing six medium lasers and two large pulse lasers, a configuration which deals more damage at better range than eight medium lasers.

Fire six Sphere medium lasers and you deal 30 damage. Fire seven Sphere medium lasers and you deal 35 damage and also shut down.

Fire six Clan medium lasers and you deal 42 damage. Fire seven Clan medium lasers and you deal 49 damage, shut down, and probably explode. That doesn't matter though because the Sphere machine has to fire nine medium lasers to match your six medium lasers and a Sphere machine that fires nine medium lasers at the same time will explode with all the savage blazing fury of a million supernovae - the celestial bodies, not the 'Mech. Though that would also explode like we're in MechWarrior 3 again.

Fire four SRM-6 in Ghost Heat and you're perfectly fine. Fire six SRM-4 - the exact same tube count, the exact same damage - and you start melting heat sinks. Fire twelve SRM-2 (if such a thing were possible) and nobody gives the faintest Shatner. What? Why?

To say nothing of the whole binary nature of the system! Fire six medium lasers 0.51s after firing six other medium lasers and you're schvitzing your britches, but otherwise fine. Fire six medium lasers 0.49s after firing six other medium lasers? THERMONUCLEAR ARMAGEDDON.

Ghost Heat is an unintuitive, obtuse, binary, non-Euclidian mess that has needed excising from MWO since it went in. Is Energy Draw a perfect replacement? No. But there's not really any way they could screw ED up worse than Ghost Heat.

Edited by 1453 R, 25 August 2016 - 06:04 AM.

[davoodoo]

I wouldnt call it defending gh, i would call it choosing lesser evil.

[DerMaulwurf]

1453 R, on 25 August 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

[...]

Fire six Clan medium lasers and you deal 42 damage. Fire seven Clan medium lasers and you deal 49 damage, shut down, and probably explode. That doesn't matter though because the Sphere machine has to fire nine medium lasers to match your six medium lasers and a Sphere machine that fires nine medium lasers at the same time will explode with all the savage blazing fury of a million supernovae - the celestial bodies, not the 'Mech. Though that would also explode like we're in MechWarrior 3 again.

[...]

Firing 6 medium lasers and 3 medium pulse lasers is perfectly fine though . In fact firing 6 medium lasers and 6 medium pulse lasers is still cooler than 9MLs or 9MPLs.

On the other hand AC/5 ghost heat barely does anything. On a weapon system with low base heat to round it off.

Ghost heat just sets the bar so low, that I only have to grudgingly tolerate ED to prefer it.

[davoodoo]

DerMaulwurf, on 25 August 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Firing 6 medium lasers and 3 medium pulse lasers is perfectly fine though . In fact firing 6 medium lasers and 6 medium pulse lasers is still cooler than 9MLs or 9MPLs.

On the other hand AC/5 ghost heat barely does anything. On a weapon system with low base heat to round it off.

Ghost heat just sets the bar so low, that I only have to grudgingly tolerate ED to prefer it.

And thats where my perception differs.

I see alphas as logical conclusion in this style of gameplay with long cooldown weapons, torso twisting, cover and minimising face time. I see canonical designs being built around alphas and i see the name mechwarrior online so i assume they should work.

I dont want to reduce alphas at all i want to reduce their effectiveness,

For me goal is to increase ttk and preserve battletech spirit and neither ed or gh does that, however gh breaks less than ed...

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 06:41 AM.

[Tekamen]

There should be a 4th option: Remove ghost heat, remove energy draw, let us alpha like the Battletech gods intended.

[1453 R]

Tekamen, on 25 August 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

There should be a 4th option: Remove ghost heat, remove energy draw, let us alpha like the Battletech gods intended.

We had that. People b!tched about TTK and 6-PPC Stalkers, so we got Ghost Heat.

The plain and honest truth is that none of the people who're b!tching about Ghost Heat, ED, "reducing alpha effectiveness" (pro tip, Voodoo: reducing alphas and reducing alpha effectiveness is the same thing) will ever be happy, because what they actually want is enforced stock configurations on all 'Mechs and enforced chain fire, and/or anything else that will make a "mixed" build consisting of one AC/5, one LRM-10, one SRM-4, one Streak SRM-2, two medium lasers, a flamer and a machine gun 'Good'. I.e. bracketed builds rather than synergistic builds. Because that's the sort of great all-rounder 'Mech that TT was built on.

Just too bad that the fundamental mechanics of war means that a machine like that is pretty much always going to be utter garbage until and unless all of its opponents are also forced to fit the same garbage mold.

Edited by 1453 R, 25 August 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[AnTi90d]

Tekamen, on 25 August 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

There should be a 4th option: Remove ghost heat, remove energy draw, let us alpha like the Battletech gods intended.

That would work if the heat cap for every mech was a tabletop-esque 30 heat.

No raising the heat cap based on engine, skills or heatsinks.. just a flat 30 across the board.

..or maybe 31.. just so people could fire 3PPCs or 2cERPPCs if and only if they're standing still.. of have the shutdown-override enabled.

[davoodoo]

AnTi90d, on 25 August 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

That would work if the heat cap for every mech was a tabletop-esque 30 heat.

No raising the heat cap based on engine, skills or heatsinks.. just a flat 30 across the board.

..or maybe 31.. just so people could fire 3PPCs or 2cERPPCs if and only if they're standing still.. of have the shutdown-override enabled.

tabletopesque, would mean that heat sinks negate heat instead of dissipating it.

And yea, that is basically heat capacity, but better.

If we assume that "turn" should be based on ppc firing rate, then at current 4s cd, dhs should be able to take in 2 heat every 4s.

Basically you fire ppc and 5 dhs go on cd, you generate 0 heat., you fire 3 ppc but got only 10 dhs?? then you generate 10 heat and 10 dhs go on cd then after they dissipate heat(4s) 5 of them goes on cd and your heat goes to 0.

This is as accurate interpretation of tt rules as i can think of.

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 07:42 AM.

[AnTi90d]

davoodoo, on 25 August 2016 - 07:29 AM, said:

If we assume that "turn" should be based on ppc firing rate, then at current 4s cd, dhs should be able to take in 2 heat every 4s.

Hell.. I'd be happy as **** if they turned the 10 second TT turn system into a 5 second MWO system.. set the cooldown of all weapons to 5 seconds.. allowed UACs to do a double tap every 2.5 seconds.. and had HS/DHS cool a mech at a rate of 1/2 every 5 seconds.

It seems like a hell of a lot easier to maintain balance between the weapon types and keep the lore-dogs happy at the same time.. firing a full alphastrike would guarantee non-UAC mechs to have nothing else to fire for five whole seconds.. so that would discourage fully committing all of your weapons to an alpha, unless you were just a peeper.. It would 100% solve the problem of 6 PPC or laser assault mechs alphastriking, as they'd die from it.

So.. no more alphawarrior.. high CD means no DPSwarrior.. the game might just be.. Mechwarrior..

--edit-- said low CD when I meant to say high CD in the last sentence.. I'm still waking up with coffee..

Edited by AnTi90d, 25 August 2016 - 07:57 AM.

[davoodoo]

I used "turn" as baseline for heat sink balance, you can anywhere from this assumption really.

[dervishx5]

They can't do it because FASA already came up with that system and PGI likes being different.

[davoodoo]

dervishx5, on 25 August 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

They can't do it because FASA already came up with that system and PGI likes being different.

May i suggest heavy gear franchise then??