63 replies to this topic

[GrimRiver]

I like the new system, a few more tweaks and it'll be as perfect as a system can be for this game.

Energy draw is a much better idea as the OG heat scale could only account for heat heavy weapons like energy weapons but ballistics produce little to no heat vs energy which is why ghost-heat on ballistics would still be needed if we got the OG heat scale instead.

[Yosharian]

grievoussmaug, on 25 August 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

I fit my mech to mesh with the team and to be viable at all ranges. Twin ERPPCs and 4 ASRM 4s on a timber? favorite build atm. PPC, LBX5 and an SRM 6 on a summoner? yes please. (quick note, my average damage per match is 500+. while pretty average, i rarely dip under that, and in a game where having 1 PPC and 1 LBX 5 is considered not viable or useful, i think thats pretty impressive)

I'd like to see some evidence that you reach 500 damage on average using a PPC/LB5X SRM6 summoner.

Sorry, but I call ********.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

That's honest, which is good. But all the folks who do like energy draw are involved in the test, whereas a significant number who do not like it are not testing it. That says a lot.

And i say a significant number of folks who like the sound of ED are not involved in the test. but all the people who dislike it are testing it like mad.

[Ghogiel]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

That's honest, which is good. But all the folks who do like energy draw are involved in the test, whereas a significant number who do not like it are not testing it. That says a lot.

Source?

[Johnny Z]

Ghogiel, on 25 August 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

Source?

Common sense.

[Gamuray]

Johnny Z, on 25 August 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

Fine but it really depends if your tearing it apart or trying to make it the best it can be. A front firing system is needed for this real time multi player battletech game so maybe help out a bit. Or what ever.

Now that its on test server I have no doubts. Many positives have popped up since then even. For the 10th time relying on heat for every mechanic in the game was relying on a system that shut down mechs. Mechs shutting down all match isn't cool. So now with energy draw they can add more sim elements.

Except that ED DOES rely on heat for the mechanic. It deals out its punishment the exact same way that ghost heat does: by raising your heat bar higher than normal. The only difference is that ED is an all encompassing ghost heat (which is ridiculous, because accurate boat alphas and inaccurate mixed alphas get the same punishment) and doesn't have exponential increases.

Yes I've tested the system. No I don't think it's good. From what I was able to tell, my dps mechs hurt more from it than my pinpoint alpha mechs. DPS mechs lose dps when they wait for the ED bar to refill (not much, but big during combat), whereas pinpoint alpha mechs don't lose much, because they already duck behind cover after firing. It's not that much different other than alpha size, which is ONLY a problem when your alphas are pinpoint accurate. (70 damage spread everywhere due to different weapon types doesn't hurt much, but 70 damage from all lasers? Or all bullets? That hurts much more.)

[Johnny Z]

Gamuray, on 25 August 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

Except that ED DOES rely on heat for the mechanic. It deals out its punishment the exact same way that ghost heat does: by raising your heat bar higher than normal. The only difference is that ED is an all encompassing ghost heat (which is ridiculous, because accurate boat alphas and inaccurate mixed alphas get the same punishment) and doesn't have exponential increases.

Yes I've tested the system. No I don't think it's good. From what I was able to tell, my dps mechs hurt more from it than my pinpoint alpha mechs. DPS mechs lose dps when they wait for the ED bar to refill (not much, but big during combat), whereas pinpoint alpha mechs don't lose much, because they already duck behind cover after firing. It's not that much different other than alpha size, which is ONLY a problem when your alphas are pinpoint accurate. (70 damage spread everywhere due to different weapon types doesn't hurt much, but 70 damage from all lasers? Or all bullets? That hurts much more.)

The rest of the complaints are completely false but this one may be true, I don't know. Either way waiting for the next update to the pts for now.

[Yosharian]

Gamuray, on 25 August 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

which is ridiculous, because accurate boat alphas and inaccurate mixed alphas get the same punishment

[Gas Guzzler]

Ghogiel, on 25 August 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

Source?

His ****** database.

[Jackal Noble]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 August 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Im sorry that seemed like mental gymnastics to you. It just seemed like simple logic to me, as with all of my other arguments that I have made regarding Energy Draw.

If you want to see mental gymnastics, go check out my "Release the Kingfisher!" posts.

Not the Kingfisher... Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 August 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

None of those builds are viable when you have stiff opposition, Energy Draw or not, just FYI.



That's ironic because BattleTech nor MechWarrior has ever had a mana energy bar with all weapons tied to it. Its actually the most non-MechWarrior thing ever to grace a MechWarrior game, and is more fitting of the "generic robot shooter" title then the game that we currently have.

There is basis for it in lore however. When Phelan battles Vlad for his warrior trial, there is a point in the story where Vlad's mech suffers "Power Draw" issues because he alpha'ed and fired his Gauss Rifle in the wrong order in conjunction with his other weapons which turn cause him to have a delayed follow up shot at Phelan.

As far as Power Draw itself, at first I was really against it but after seeing it and what it could actually accomplish, I think the system has potential. What I don't have faith in though is PGI's ability to balance the system correctly. For example I am fairly certain they will figure out a way to overaly punish the use of PPCs and figure out some way to impose that crazy Gauss Rifle charge up mechanic again. That is the kind of stuff I am really concerned about.

[Gas Guzzler]

Viktor Drake, on 25 August 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

There is basis for it in lore however. When Phelan battles Vlad for his warrior trial, there is a point in the story where Vlad's mech suffers "Power Draw" issues because he alpha'ed and fired his Gauss Rifle in the wrong order in conjunction with his other weapons which turn cause him to have a delayed follow up shot at Phelan.

A couple mentions of it in different books has no bearing on MechWarrior games in my opinion. Author's like to throw in fluff and plot events to make the story more exciting, that doesn't really mean anything.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 August 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

A couple mentions of it in different books has no bearing on MechWarrior games in my opinion. Author's like to throw in fluff and plot events to make the story more exciting, that doesn't really mean anything.

That depends. You can either take this material and do something with it to make the game more immersive and real or you can throw it out the window, it is really up to the developer. My point is that no matter what, the power draw mechanic IS a part of lore and complaining that it isn't doesn't change the fact that it is.

As to if Power Draw is the answer, I don't know but I haven't really heard any better ideas and at least it is something with some obscure basis in lore because Ghost Heat sure the heck doesn't exist in any of the novels or source books I have ever seen.

[Gas Guzzler]

Viktor Drake, on 25 August 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

That depends. You can either take this material and do something with it to make the game more immersive and real or you can throw it out the window, it is really up to the developer. My point is that no matter what, the power draw mechanic IS a part of lore and complaining that it isn't doesn't change the fact that it is.

Still debatable. The vast majority of books that I have read have not made it a thing. What's more concrete, is that NO MechWarrior game has had it, and it really takes away some of the MechWarrior feel for me.

But all of that is on top of the CORE issue, which is, HOW are they going to balance the game to the level of balance we have now, when all weapons contribute to the same energy pool while firing? Its like, there is no reason to break up the synergy of your weapons, so just boat the most efficient weapon and call it a day.

[Red Shrike]

Well, trying out the ED system in the testing grounds, I conclude that nothing has changed.
My Warhammer is still somewhat difficult to overheat and my Timberwolf still overheats whenever I fire the primaries more than once within 15 seconds.

[Mystere]

TKSax, on 25 August 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Yes I am sure 4 mixed IS/Clan v 4 mixed IS/Clan feels much more like battletech...

FTFY.

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

That's honest, which is good. But all the folks who do like energy draw are involved in the test, whereas a significant number who do not like it are not testing it. That says a lot.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Johnny Z, on 25 August 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

Fine but it really depends if your tearing it apart or trying to make it the best it can be. A front firing system is needed for this real time multi player battletech game so maybe help out a bit. Or what ever.

Now that its on test server I have no doubts. Many positives have popped up since then even. For the 10th time relying on heat for every mechanic in the game was relying on a system that shut down mechs. Mechs shutting down all match isn't cool. So now with energy draw they can add more sim elements.

What other "sim" has a mana bar?

Red Shrike, on 25 August 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

You know what, I'll give it a swing and report back to you.

Macros with software interrupts and user-written DLLs for the win!

[Navid A1]

So first, it is this:

Johnny Z, on 25 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Energy draw along with the new skill tree will make the excellent game play even better. Its all win.

then countered with hard cold logical truth:

Gamuray, on 25 August 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

Except that ED DOES rely on heat for the mechanic. It deals out its punishment the exact same way that ghost heat does: by raising your heat bar higher than normal. The only difference is that ED is an all encompassing ghost heat (which is ridiculous, because accurate boat alphas and inaccurate mixed alphas get the same punishment) and doesn't have exponential increases.

Yes I've tested the system. No I don't think it's good. From what I was able to tell, my dps mechs hurt more from it than my pinpoint alpha mechs. DPS mechs lose dps when they wait for the ED bar to refill (not much, but big during combat), whereas pinpoint alpha mechs don't lose much, because they already duck behind cover after firing. It's not that much different other than alpha size, which is ONLY a problem when your alphas are pinpoint accurate. (70 damage spread everywhere due to different weapon types doesn't hurt much, but 70 damage from all lasers? Or all bullets? That hurts much more.)

Which leads to this:

Johnny Z, on 25 August 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

The rest of the complaints are completely false but this one may be true, I don't know. Either way waiting for the next update to the pts for now.

So I'm expecting you to stop praising the system non-stop like a PGI PR intern, and wait and see the final result?

I know its fun for some people on the forums to see punishment being shafted up top players with meta builds (even I find it fun to see all the cries).... But, I know, that if this hits live servers, I will be the one crying with my balanced builds... meta will find another way far worse that it already is with the current ghost heat.

[smokytehbear]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 August 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

I like that energy draw is catering to mixed range mechs as well. They needed more than just map selection to discourage boating. That's battletech lore, that's what I've always run, similar to the OP.

For everyone else, the meta is going to change. It's not the first time. Life will go on. =)

What? How is it catering to mixed range mechs? This does like the opposite of that. If a point of damage is a point of damage for ghost heat concerns, why on earth would you carry more than one range of laser?

One of the major reasons people built things with mixed weapon systems like SRMs, ACs, and lasers all into one mech (rare as it was before anyway) was specifically because of ghost heat's penalty against boating all of the same thing. Switching that to a penalty that applies to all weapons effectively removes the penalty from boats.

This is why ED will succeed. Because it's using the classic politician's trick of saying something vague, and everyone reads into it whatever interpretation works for them. The only stated goals were to cut down on alphas and make the system more transparent, but because they reinvented the wheel on every single weapon, now everyone's supporting this garbage for all sorts of different contradictory reasons. Don't like boating/mixed weapons? Don't like peeking/facetanking? Don't like sniping/brawling? Ghost heat 2.0 is for you!

[smokytehbear]

Gamuray, on 25 August 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

It's not that much different other than alpha size, which is ONLY a problem when your alphas are pinpoint accurate. (70 damage spread everywhere due to different weapon types doesn't hurt much, but 70 damage from all lasers? Or all bullets? That hurts much more.)

Maybe we can have ED penalties scale a little more when it's all built up from weapons with the same type of characteristics? Would be hard to use an algorithm for, but maybe just put them in arbitrary groups, like all the large laser types in one, and all the SRMs in another, etc. Maybe that would accomplish the best of both worlds.


Oh...

[Navid A1]

smokytehbear, on 25 August 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

What? How is it catering to mixed range mechs? This does like the opposite of that. If a point of damage is a point of damage for ghost heat concerns, why on earth would you carry more than one range of laser?

One of the major reasons people built things with mixed weapon systems like SRMs, ACs, and lasers all into one mech (rare as it was before anyway) was specifically because of ghost heat's penalty against boating all of the same thing. Switching that to a penalty that applies to all weapons effectively removes the penalty from boats.

This is why ED will succeed. Because it's using the classic politician's trick of saying something vague, and everyone reads into it whatever interpretation works for them. The only stated goals were to cut down on alphas and make the system more transparent, but because they reinvented the wheel on every single weapon, now everyone's supporting this garbage for all sorts of different contradictory reasons. Don't like boating/mixed weapons? Don't like peeking/facetanking? Don't like sniping/brawling? Ghost heat 2.0 is for you!

Common sense is not a strong side of this bunch.

Some people see right through this train-wreck... and some are dying with joy, because their mechs worked against some experimental builds in a 4v4 match with no matchmaker, and they think this is the perfect system.

Honestly I can not wait to see them in 6 months here crying about ED to be removed.