63 replies to this topic

[nehebkau]

The new system (AS IT CURRENTLY WORKS) wont curb boating, it just limits the amount of alpha you can do before you really have mech issues. Boating smpls on your AC or Firestarter is really exactly the same as it is now -- power draw has no effect on it. Boating MPLs on my GHopper produced a bit more heat but it was still manageable as an alpha-strike mech.

You can still have high alpha builds but, then, you need to mix high heat with low heat to account for the added heat from the energy draw. For example, 2 x gauss + 2 x ERPPC as an alpha works but I got close to 60% of my heat capacity for each alpha (from testing) The only reason it works is because the gauss don't generate heat on their own which allows for this mechanic to work.
You can 3 ERPPC alpha and not shut down but 4 ERPPC alpha will shut you down.

Having said all this, is the reason I have suggested that the power draw pool be lowered to 23 points rather than 30 and, that the regeneration of the power bar be directly related to how much of it you use, including regeneration penalties if you use it all and get a heat penalty.

Edited by nehebkau, 25 August 2016 - 03:25 PM.

[Navid A1]

smokytehbear, on 25 August 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

Maybe we can have ED penalties scale a little more when it's all built up from weapons with the same type of characteristics? Would be hard to use an algorithm for, but maybe just put them in arbitrary groups, like all the large laser types in one, and all the SRMs in another, etc. Maybe that would accomplish the best of both worlds.


Oh...

Yup... that would be the best approach... That was my initial suggestion to improve ED system (in my sig)

[Kubernetes]

smokytehbear, on 25 August 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

One of the major reasons people built things with mixed weapon systems like SRMs, ACs, and lasers all into one mech (rare as it was before anyway) was specifically because of ghost heat's penalty against boating all of the same thing. Switching that to a penalty that applies to all weapons effectively removes the penalty from boats.

Right, but people did that in order to build massive alpha boats--which is what ghost heat was supposed to stop. Ghost heat just shifted people from boating big alphas to boating even bigger mixed alphas.

The question is, What do players want? Is TTK too short? Do people want limitations on alphas and burst damage? Energy draw seems to be an attempt to fill in the gaps in GH, but is it what people want?

[smokytehbear]

Kubernetes, on 25 August 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

Right, but people did that in order to build massive alpha boats--which is what ghost heat was supposed to stop. Ghost heat just shifted people from boating big alphas to boating even bigger mixed alphas.

The question is, What do players want? Is TTK too short? Do people want limitations on alphas and burst damage? Energy draw seems to be an attempt to fill in the gaps in GH, but is it what people want?

TTK going up or down is not a stated goal with ED at all, anywhere, to the best of my knowledge. The official goals were to create harsher penalties for high alphas, and to make the mechanics more transparent. Everyone injecting their views on TTK are just trying to game the system and weasel in their own opinions. I would argue there's no legitimate evidence people overwhelmingly even want a change to alphas, apart from anecdotes and "it seems" things, but anything regarding TTK with this system is beyond even that and totally out of place.

Not to mention, in a test environment with potentially 8 less people shooting you with significantly weirder builds consisting of weapons still undergoing significant modifications, any indication from experience that TTK seems to be going up or down is totally unreliable. In this case I feel even theory from people who haven't played the PTS at all is at least as representative of what's likely to happen as data and experiences from the servers.

[Davers]

Johnny Z, on 25 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Energy draw along with the new skill tree will make the excellent game play even better. Its all win.

Can we wait for a single released detail about the new skill system before we praise it's effect on gameplay? Call me a bittervet if you will, but I have heard too much "CW is going to be incredible " comments in Closed Beta to be so sure new features will actually make the game "even better".

[Stone Wall]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 August 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

That's ironic because BattleTech nor MechWarrior has ever had a mana energy bar with all weapons tied to it. Its actually the most non-MechWarrior thing ever to grace a MechWarrior game, and is more fitting of the "generic robot shooter" title then the game that we currently have.

It's not ironic. Is this your first MechWarrior online title? Mechs die way too fast in this game. MechWarrior 3 and 4 were loved games, whereas this current game isn't loved so much. So you're saying a move towards the past games is worse than the current game? Mmkay...

Oderint dum Metuant, on 25 August 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

And i say a significant number of folks who like the sound of ED are not involved in the test. but all the people who dislike it are testing it like mad.

That's not the case for YouTubers I have watched. And it's really ALL the people? Don't think so.

Edited by Stone Wall, 25 August 2016 - 06:52 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Re: TTK

What do you think Ghost Heat and Energy Draw are all about? MWO is an FPS trying to cling to TT rules. PGI is trying to increase TTK so people don't get instagibbed and complain about TTK and power creep and robot CoD blahblahblah. They're going to drop GH because it didn't do what it was supposed to do: stop massive alphas. People just mixed different weapon types (both with similar ranges), and you saw 60+ or more laser/gauss vomit. It's actually kind of funny because as of late players have been shifting away from big laser alphas to UACs and ERPPC/Gauss. Great timing!

[Davers]

Stone Wall, on 25 August 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

It's not ironic. Is this your first MechWarrior online title? Mechs die way too fast in this game. MechWarrior 3 and 4 were loved games, whereas this current game isn't loved so much. So you're saying a move towards the past games is worse than the current game? Mmkay...

What are you talking about? In previous games lasers were. PPFLD and you could 2 shot nearly any mech in the game. Light mechs were extinct in the older titles in multiplayer.

[Stone Wall]

Davers, on 25 August 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

What are you talking about? In previous games lasers were. PPFLD and you could 2 shot nearly any mech in the game. Light mechs were extinct in the older titles in multiplayer.

There were long battles in MechWarrior 3 in a 1 on 1 situation. Later in the game's life when people started using cable modems, you barely had to lag lead. Even straight up shooting a Mech that stood still wasn't a 2 shot kill like in MWO. The only way you were going to 2 or 3 shot a Mech was to play on an Ice Map with Unlimited Ammo. That damage wasn't going to happen on a regular heat map. (source: played online from 1999 to the end of the CD ROM support for the MSN Gaming Zone in 2006)

I didn't play MechWarrior 4 nearly as long, but I feel the fights were longer too, even with lag shooting removed. You didn't get shot by a poptart twice and die.

So when Gas is quoting the user saying a longer TTK feels like a MechWarrior title, that is what the user is referring to. That user isn't saying the intro of ED is like MechWarrior, as Gas is suggesting.

Edited by Stone Wall, 25 August 2016 - 07:07 PM.

[smokytehbear]

Stone Wall, on 25 August 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

That's not the case for YouTubers I have watched. And it's really ALL the people? Don't think so.

Did you not see the post the dude quoted when he said this? He's mocking the fact that all these idiots keep saying "Everyone who hates it doesn't even play on PTS lal" when plenty of us have, and still do hate it.

Kubernetes, on 25 August 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

Re: TTK

What do you think Ghost Heat and Energy Draw are all about? MWO is an FPS trying to cling to TT rules. PGI is trying to increase TTK so people don't get instagibbed and complain about TTK and power creep and robot CoD blahblahblah. They're going to drop GH because it didn't do what it was supposed to do: stop massive alphas. People just mixed different weapon types (both with similar ranges), and you saw 60+ or more laser/gauss vomit. It's actually kind of funny because as of late players have been shifting away from big laser alphas to UACs and ERPPC/Gauss. Great timing!

That's one of the reasons for sure, but it's not the only one potentially. Some people just don't like the style high alphas encourage. Peeking and sniping are also high alpha results, and in a different way, so is brawling. My point is, this system is not supposed to address any of these directly or primarily, and people gunning for increased TTK within the guise of "cough, yeah we gotta do something about those alphas" are scumbags. That's all I'm saying.

But to the second point, I completely agree. That's what an evolving meta looks like, and it's what makes metagaming in big online games part of the fun. People found out that the classic SRM + SPL build just isn't as effective as it used to be now that some big challengers have entered the field and people have found ways to counter it. If you're game is inherently balanced, people will find ways to fight different things, and use their own styles in valid ways. If it's not inherently balanced, superficial dumb fixes like GH 1.0 and GH 2.0 don't create this effect, they just make it one-dimensional. We finally got to a point, post GH 1.0 implementation, that there is decent balance and options for multiple playstyles. A vote for ED sets this progress back a year at least.

Stone Wall, on 25 August 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

I didn't play MechWarrior 4 nearly as long, but I feel the fights were longer too, even with lag shooting removed. You didn't get shot by a poptart twice and die.

What poptart in this game can two shot anything but a stationary locust?

Edited by smokytehbear, 25 August 2016 - 07:08 PM.

[Johnny Z]

I wonder if the current energy draw on pts is going live or it will be updated again?

[Alteran]

I've never been a big boater of anything and I've played the ED in PTS... To me it's just a slightly different version of GH. All my configurations are just fine on the PTS and if anything, I can fire more often !

I've only got 2 complaints: 1) dual-gauss generating 18% heat because it's a >100% ED? I would agree with it being a near complete drain of energy, but no 100+? 2) Firing two C-ERPPC's together is a >100% ED? Again, I would say 95%, but that'd be about it.

Other than that, I don't care which system we use.

If we do go with the ED system, I would give each size of engine it's own rating. 400XL = 200 total energy, 300XL = 130 TE... something to that effect. At least then the bigger the engine you have the more Energy you can draw from.

[Stone Wall]

smokytehbear, on 25 August 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

Did you not see the post the dude quoted when he said this? He's mocking the fact that all these idiots keep saying "Everyone who hates it doesn't even play on PTS lal" when plenty of us have, and still do hate it.

I was talking about YouTubers like Kanajashi who are pretty active testing and like it.

You can't say everyone who tested it hates when it isn't true. Just look at the Feedback forum. If you're going to be a vocal majority, you need to try harder. Even ED is winning in the poll of ED vs Ghost Heat.....

[Stone Wall]

nehebkau, on 25 August 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

The new system (AS IT CURRENTLY WORKS) wont curb boating, it just limits the amount of alpha you can do before you really have mech issues.

It's not designed to curb boating though.

[Kyrie]

Am I the only one who is flashing back to those old tasteless big-pharma ads that blanketed cable tv a while ago asking us to ask our doctor about ED? :-)

"Mechwarrior, don't be afraid to talk to your doctor about ED..."

[Stone Wall]

Kyrie, on 25 August 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

Am I the only one who is flashing back to those old tasteless big-pharma ads that blanketed cable tv a while ago asking us to ask our doctor about ED? :-)

"Mechwarrior, don't be afraid to talk to your doctor about ED..."

[jweltsch]

First round of energy draw was bad enough, second round is worse imo. Why do you think the 4 ppc warhawk needs to not exist? That is the effect of the new energy draw. On live, fire 2 ppcs, fire the other 2 after .5 seconds, no penalty. On pts fire 2 penalty, fire the other 2 in .5 seconds LOTS of penalty. This build and mech was NOT op in any shape or form, and yet it gets destroyed by energy draw..... In fact new pts energy draw says that clans shouldnt bring ppcs at all.

[Johnny Z]

I wonder what if any changes are made to this awsome mechanic before it goes live? Curious. Or is it perfect already?

[Gas Guzzler]

Stone Wall, on 25 August 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

It's not ironic. Is this your first MechWarrior online title? Mechs die way too fast in this game. MechWarrior 3 and 4 were loved games, whereas this current game isn't loved so much. So you're saying a move towards the past games is worse than the current game? Mmkay...

Lol what?

Past games never had an Energy Draw bar. I have been playing since MechWarrior 2, and mechs have definitely been put down even faster in other games. I mean, I have come a hair away from one shotting heavy mechs in MechWarrior 4, that never happens in this game.

Seriously, if you are dying too fast you need to look at how you are playing and play more defensively, take less risks.

[Johnny Z]

I like energy draw so much I hope its in next week.

Actually I am not kidding, it could go live tomorrow and offer better gameplay.

Edited by Johnny Z, 25 August 2016 - 08:42 PM.