40 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

Hunka Junk, on 29 August 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

And sorry if I this is in the wrong section,

Ehh honeslty, the new player forums is a good as place as any.. this place is much happier, and tends to get lots of Lore answers to why things are how they are..


Leave it to Kon to never fail us!






But yea, Kon's stuff,, My answer was just wrong..

[Void Angel]

The Basilisk, on 29 August 2016 - 12:52 AM, said:

Like Koniving said the electronic warfare equipment and development of EW equipment and counter EW equipment during the age of war (2398 - 2550) became so intense that the best way often seemed to be the most straight forward.

In the Chylde Cycle by Gordon R. Dickinson, warfare has devolved to this same sort of thing - low technology backed by high tech, in a sort of strategic game of rock/paper/scissors. Advanced weapon systems like laser rifles exist, but are vulnerable to other high-tech countermeasures - such as microwave bombardment to disable the laser tech used - so most wars are still fought with extremely refined descendants of 20th-century arms, with higher technology being used on a provisional basis when the user doesn't think the enemy has a counter.

[Koniving]

Hunka Junk, on 29 August 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

OK then for all the money:

What was the strategy/decision-making process that led to the mechs that have ECM in MWO winning the ECM prize?

Of the newer mechs, source books.

Cicada, Atlas, commando and spider do not and never have had ECM.

[The Basilisk]

Spike Brave, on 29 August 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

While the topic of why ECM is, or isn't, available has been covered well, I believe there is a little missing from a discussion of all the lore. The first, and perhaps most import issue, is that BattleMech sensor don't work in MWO like they work in BattleTech. First of all their is no target info sharing without the use of C3 equipment. So in BattleTech no shouts of hold locks. Also Mechwarrior are assumed to be watching thier entire sensor suite, so you may not show on radar, but thermal, seismic, or visual will get you.

Secondly, missles don't not work the same way. The only lock on is streak systems. So lrms go to the place you aimed with very slight course corrections and they might sort of follow the laser pointer if you have Artemis. If it's the late 3050's, you bought very expensive semi-guided lrms, and have a TAG pointer they will sort of follow that too.

Finally, and most importantly in my opinion, alot of the best MechWarriors are extremely skilled in the use of the eyeball MK1. A lot of the most exciting battles in fiction simply involved people who where sharp eyed, situtationaly aware, and a good shot. They didn't rely on a red triangle. They used visual input.

While you are right when saying the SSRMs are the only hardlocking missiles, basic LRMs and SRMs are basic guided missiles.
Only dumbfire systems are Periphery rocket launchers and MRMs.
The difference is LRMs and SRMs are passively guided (by the missile platform so LoS only)
SSRMs are active self guided systems once they aquired a lock on target.

Available standart Battlemech sensors are vislight, IR, light amp, MagRes, and optionaly: seismic and surprise surprise radar/lidar as antiair.

The TAG system has originaly nothing to do with LRMs, SRMs or sensors suits. In Battletech it is a part of the ARROW IV artillery system. Arrows are laser homing tactical artillery missiles (like nowadays copperhead) delivering a variaty of possible payloads (nukes possible). Semi guided laser homing LRMs where a past 3057 development from the Marics.

For indirect LRM firing you just needed a dedicated spotter witch must have a LoS towards the target for at least one round.

[Koniving]

While most small time tabletop plays tend to be just mechs, a proper battlefield has infantry, vehicles, etc. Some mechs are meant specifically for fighting against infantry, such as the Firestarter and the Blackjack. Jagermechs and Riflemen are meant for anti-air use. Conventional aircraft really is a thing and it is a very useful as it turns out.


Note that most of the inspiration for Battletech comes from:
Gundam (UC universe), 08th MS team (gundam), Patlabor, Dougram and several other similar animes of the 1980s.
In 08th MS team and Patlabor especially, the mechs are supported by infantry, artillery, vehicles.

Take this bridge battle, as I often find tabletop campaign missions are very similar to it by how they play out. The APC is specifically carrying the Seismic Sensor for the team. Then you have a heavy gunner and a mid-range fighter. The opposing team has hulldown advantages and an ambush set up.


In a similar vain, you would use infantry or other recon unit to spot for your LRMs and make adjustments to your fire accordingly.

The very reason for the LRM 180 meter minimum range is actually an accuracy penalty originally (it has since been changed to better match the art as having to manually set an arming range and lob them if within 180 meters unless 'Hot-loaded'; interestingly this change made for some better balancing improvements in terms of vulnerability to enemy fire and potential bonus damage received). In the original explanation, the IS always lobs its LRMs at a ballistic launch angle (up and over like mortars). To lob them at something closer, you had to tilt the mech forward, something which might not always tilt enough or at the right angle so it is pretty hit or miss... hence "Accuracy" penalty. Not 'no damage' penalty. The Clans on the other hand do not engage in indirect fire for it is dishonorable.

[MrEdweird]

Koniving, on 30 August 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

-snip-

So you could say that clanners used LRMs more like MRMs then. Shoot them at whatever range...just not over the hill.

[Koniving]

On helicopters.... a fun fact:. The uh-1 Huey is around 17.6 meters long, the height of MWO's Atlas.

Battletech's largest mech up until 3065... is the Executioner at 14.4 meters.

So while easy to disable, Battletech's helicopters play a very useful role in combat, too.

Infantry and battle armor can swarm mechs fairly easily and all pilot's, though typically near naked within mechs, carry a pistol side arm and most mechs have a seat that can swivel to face the hatch as a common problem is hitchhikers popping the hatch to kill or capture the pilot.

The Puma/Adder Clan Omnimech has a flamer mounted above the cockpit hatch for this very reason, as Elementals are grunts with battle armor of the same name, that are 7+ feet tall with hulk-or-Gears-of-War-sized muscles that can rip sheets of armor off using the battle armor's actuator.... imagine one of them yanking on your hatch while using a mech with no other defense against them? I'd shove that flamer on there too, and back it up with five MGs for good measure!

As for spotting techniques, my favorite thing to do is spread an infantry team across several floors of a building for spotting as well as support fire. SRM-2 packs are man-portable and have manual guidance.

[Koniving]

MrEdweird, on 30 August 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

So you could say that clanners used LRMs more like MRMs then. Shoot them at whatever range...just not over the hill.

Pretty much.. Except LRMs are still self-guided.

In terms of BT's softpoint system...
An SRM-6 can be exchanged for a LRM-15 or an MRM-30, a mech mortar/4 or an SRM-4+Artemis. So this also gives you an idea for missile sizes, too.
SRM-2 for LRM-5, mech mortar/1, MRM-10.
SRM-4 for SRM-2+Artemis, LRM-10, mech mortar/2, MRM-20.
SRM6+Artemis for LRM-20, MRM-40, Mech mortar/8, or an Arrow IV artillery missile system (5 tubes).

The softpoint system is for campaign refits, where compatible systems are easier/faster to swap out which is important if you have a week before the enemy gets to you. Overtime for techs to speed up weapon changes and replacements for rush jobs before the enemy comes can lead to all sorts of problems. Did you know a faulty launcher can jam? Evidently the rule is once it does, the missiles blow up in the launcher. Started learning softpoints real quick.

Edited by Koniving, 30 August 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[MrEdweird]

Nothing would be more satisfying than a Charger shoulder smashing a clan mech in the cockpit at 86.4 kph or an Axman forcing its way through a mech's engine with the hatchet...which seems to be more akin to blunt trauma than a cut considering the potential energy and inertia something that size that would have when swung.

There's a reason that old image of an Atlas replacing a Warhawk's cockpit with its fist looks so cool.

[Koniving]

MrEdweird, on 30 August 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Nothing would be more satisfying than a Charger shoulder smashing a clan mech in the cockpit at 86.4 kph or an Axman forcing its way through a mech's engine with the hatchet...which seems to be more akin to blunt trauma than a cut considering the potential energy and inertia something that size that would have when swung.


There's a reason that old image of an Atlas replacing a Warhawk's cockpit with its fist looks so cool.

Charge attacks use Sprint rules... The 86.4 kph is the Running speed, slower than what a charger would charge at (1 hex more).

Also random fun... I once tried jump jetting to do a DFA against another player only for the dice to go against me. I was shot out of the air, knocked in the wrong direction for 60 meters and landed on my cockpit and left torso. The pilot died on landing.

Edited by Koniving, 30 August 2016 - 09:40 AM.

[MrEdweird]

Koniving, on 30 August 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

Charge attacks use Sprint rules... The 86.4 kph is the Running speed, slower than what a charger would charge at (1 hex more).

Also random fun... I once tried jump jetting to do a DFA against another player only for the dice to go against me. I was shot out of the air, knocked in the wrong direction for 60 meters and landed on my cockpit and left torso. The pilot died on landing.

Oh sure, but I was thinking more MWO terms. I guess the equivalent would be MASC ... I can't exactly envision an assault mech running at over 100kph in real life, that would be petrifying.

Also, as far as I recall, DFA was considered extremely detrimental to the mech jumping down, they would often completely trash the actuators, snap myomer bundles etc., sound right?

Edited by MrEdweird, 30 August 2016 - 09:46 AM.

[Koniving]

62 miles per hour would definitely be daunting with the slamming foot stomps of 80 tons, even if it is only around the size of a semi+trailer standing up.



55 ton Wolverine helping a tank that's been "Tracked".



Behemoth tank (armor variant) sporting more armor than an Atlas can possibly carry, tracked and engaged. That Commando is gonna be insta-gibbed by quad LBXs but the tank's turret will fry that Atlas in the first blow, while 4 LRM-5 launches will systematically disable a total of 7 fifty ton mechs over the next thirty seconds. In this one turn, three of the four Enforcers will be hit by LRM5s, the nearest to the Atlas, however, is too far for the missiles to turn.

Note.. This tank has a gunnery skill of 0, no penalty... the average genetically engineered Clan pilot has a gunnery skill of 3, where a penalty of 2 is considered to be an elite or ace Inner Sphere pilot and average is 4. It demonstrates the potential flexibility/turning radius of LRMs in perfect conditions.

[MrEdweird]

Not gonna lie. The new Battletech game looks full of win.

[Koniving]

This one?


I like it. I'm worried about the double armor and whether that is "1.5" or "15" damage per AC spray hit from an AC/5.

I've had that experience the Atlas had several times over.

Note all firing looks random because it is meant to happen as you move and they tried a version where it did that but it play tested poorly with frustration when the weapons werent firing in a good order as well as the time to complete a turn taking longer through that route.

Edited by Koniving, 30 August 2016 - 10:20 AM.

[Koniving]

The old guy is Jordan Weisman , co-founder and co-creator of the original Battletech (then Battledroids) and all its sequential stuff until around 199..../2000 something. Then some other companies and finally Catalyst got ahold of the tabletop rights.

[Leone]

Koniving, on 30 August 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

In 08th MS team and Patlabor especially, the mechs are supported by infantry, artillery, vehicles.

Ah, good 'ol shows. In Gundam I always found myself cheering for the Zakkus. Was like Is versus Clans every show, had to root for the underdogs.

That said, running a Mechwarrior campaign with Battletech matches should the team not screw it up, an man... combined arms. Sure, mechs are awesome in Battletech. Vehicles tend to get their mobility blown out, an aerospace have a chance to lawn dart into the ground if they take any damage. Not to mention what happens to infantry when I finally manage to light em up with machine-gun fire.

But, Aerospace assets just get to choose a hex side of the battle map an gun down a mech every two or three rounds. And infantry can be pain to hunt down. They're great area denial, if not actually all that efficient at putting out the damage.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 30 August 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[Spike Brave]

Koniving, on 30 August 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Pretty much.. Except LRMs are still self-guided.

In terms of BT's softpoint system...
An SRM-6 can be exchanged for a LRM-15 or an MRM-30, a mech mortar/4 or an SRM-4+Artemis. So this also gives you an idea for missile sizes, too.
SRM-2 for LRM-5, mech mortar/1, MRM-10.
SRM-4 for SRM-2+Artemis, LRM-10, mech mortar/2, MRM-20.
SRM6+Artemis for LRM-20, MRM-40, Mech mortar/8, or an Arrow IV artillery missile system (5 tubes).

The softpoint system is for campaign refits, where compatible systems are easier/faster to swap out which is important if you have a week before the enemy gets to you. Overtime for techs to speed up weapon changes and replacements for rush jobs before the enemy comes can lead to all sorts of problems. Did you know a faulty launcher can jam? Evidently the rule is once it does, the missiles blow up in the launcher. Started learning softpoints real quick.

Thanks for going into more detail. I should have been more clear when I said point the missles. I did mean that the are passively guided. Streaks are an interesting case, as my source material states the aren't a hard lock either. The BattleTech Compendium and the orginial print of TRO 3050 state it's a two phase firing. First a laser paints the target then if a valid target is detected the missles follow the laser in. I don't think ECM would impact that system. Of course, this may have been reconned is the case for sensors. The Tatical Handbook states the suites I list were what was available circa 3055. Finally I wanted to round at the list of missle systems if we are including every system ever not just what is in MWO. The Clans do have streak LRMS and ATM systems. The ATM can be active, passive, or dead fire. Thunder LRMs deploy minefields and Swarm LRMs fire mulitple sub-muntions. Tandem charge srms do one point of damage which punches a hole in the armor and allows a second charge to detonote within the mech causing one point of internal structure damage and possible critical damage, Inferno SRM spray napalm causing a mech to have to dissipate extra heat. Solaris gives us the Thunderbolt missle, a single shot for 10 damage. This was the basis for the Thunderbot launchers which come in 5, 10, 15, and 20 which do as much damage as the number in it's name indicates with a single missle. Finally the Barricuda, Killer Whale, and Great White missles mounted on captail ships. They have the most complex guidance systems available and carry massive payloads of standard ordinance or a thermonuclear warhead. Let me know if I missed any.

Edited by Spike Brave, 30 August 2016 - 04:45 PM.

[Koniving]

ATM I think is the one that can fire various missile types (LRM/SRM/MRM).

I'll be reading that because a laser being involved in the softlock process sounds like Artemis. Not sure if I have the compendium but I know I have that TRO.

I do know that SRMs have been known to attack each other (Artemis enhanced) when a Guardian ECM cuts off their communication mid flight.

----
Leone, in UC universe the Zakus usually did seem to go for the underdogs.
In Seed, Zakus seemed to go for the overdogs.

[Spike Brave]

Koniving, on 30 August 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

ATM I think is the one that can fire various missile types (LRM/SRM/MRM).

I'll be reading that because a laser being involved in the softlock process sounds like Artemis. Not sure if I have the compendium but I know I have that TRO.

I do know that SRMs have been known to attack each other (Artemis enhanced) when a Guardian ECM cuts off their communication mid flight.

----
Leone, in UC universe the Zakus usually did seem to go for the underdogs.
In Seed, Zakus seemed to go for the overdogs.

You are correct with ATM. Additionally they can fire the two stage ER LRMS.

[JC Daxion]

Koniving, on 29 August 2016 - 11:34 PM, said:

Of the newer mechs, source books.

Cicada, Atlas, commando and spider do not and never have had ECM.

How do i UNLIKE this?


You know it is funny, i have all of those, but I rarely use any ECM mech.. Infact my total drops in those mechs are.. Atlas D-DC: 28, commando 2D: 37, spider 5D: 4, The cicada 3M: 88, is the only one i used a decent amount, and did so in my CW drop deck,


Thanks again for keeping us non-lore freaks satisfied with our thirst for more knowledge. So nice to see fun MWO related topics on the forums that are fun!