82 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

DarklightCA, on 31 August 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Long Tom isn't bad design, it's a good design to mixup the gameplay as it is really needed. The only problem people really had with it was how strong it was. Pretty sure I'd rather PGI just adjust it than get rid of it.

To my recollection... with the exception of what it is now (not sure what has changed and/or felt said changes - since I don't play FW), it was pretty much auto-nuking everything it saw.

I mean, I can adjust my expectations, but I don't think what I saw before (gibbing everyone, particularly the uncoordinated) would change my stance on the matter.

[MischiefSC]

DarklightCA, on 31 August 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Long Tom isn't bad design, it's a good design to mixup the gameplay as it is really needed. The only problem people really had with it was how strong it was. Pretty sure I'd rather PGI just adjust it than get rid of it.

If it was all premades and coordinated teams it would be a half-viable design.

It's not so the argument is moot. You're arguing the value of LT for an environment that doesn't exist.

In the game we have with the players we have nobody plays against LT. All it does in reality is make pug stomps more stompy so nobody shows. Arguing how you think people should respond to it is irrelevant. What happens is as soon as LT shoes up queues empty. Full stop. Nobody wants to play against it, many won't play with it. As soon as people encounter the LT, zoink. They go elsewhere.

That's it. There are a myriad of ways to introduce dynamic change to the gameplay without LT. All of them are better.

[DarklightCA]

Deathlike, on 31 August 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

To my recollection... with the exception of what it is now (not sure what has changed and/or felt said changes - since I don't play FW), it was pretty much auto-nuking everything it saw.

I mean, I can adjust my expectations, but I don't think what I saw before (gibbing everyone, particularly the uncoordinated) would change my stance on the matter.

It was nuking people because the damage was being applied incorrectly but they fixed that. All the damage was not being properly spread out and too much damage was being applied to the head and side torso's. It's still strong but I haven't seen it kill anybody the few times I actually got to play against the new ones.

MischiefSC, on 31 August 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

If it was all premades and coordinated teams it would be a half-viable design.

It's not so the argument is moot. You're arguing the value of LT for an environment that doesn't exist.

In the game we have with the players we have nobody plays against LT. All it does in reality is make pug stomps more stompy so nobody shows. Arguing how you think people should respond to it is irrelevant. What happens is as soon as LT shoes up queues empty. Full stop. Nobody wants to play against it, many won't play with it. As soon as people encounter the LT, zoink. They go elsewhere.

That's it. There are a myriad of ways to introduce dynamic change to the gameplay without LT. All of them are better.

I am arguing the value of long tom as a mechanic that brings more dynamic gameplay to the gamemode. The fact that the gamemode isn't all premade group's doesn't change that fact.

Also again, the old long tom is the thing that made people avoid planets. You know the one that nuked people. Nobody gave the updated one a actual chance, namely because the only time the gamemode has the population to put long tom on planets is only when there are events for Faction Play. Using how people treated the original LT as a excuse to dismiss the concept entirely doesn't fly.

[MischiefSC]

Except a broken mechanic is still broken regardless of scale.

It will always favor the side that's already winning.

It will always favor the coordinated factions vs uncoordinated.

Scouting balance will always be hugely lop-sided due to 4v4 only lights/mediums balance vs 48v48 balance.

Anything that does damage/steals kills on any significant level (more than what a below average player does in a match) degrades the performance of the team it's working for.

Anything that does damage/steals kills on any significant level is a decisive advantage against the other side.

As such, once again, you've got something that functionally requires both sides to focus first on the scout queue if they want to play invasion.

If you want to always play against LT because it feels dynamic to you, well great. Good on you. Let me know how long it lasts. Most people don't agree. Have never agreed, didn't agree even when it was way more nerfed than it is now. It's a bad mechanic at a fundamental level better replaced by being able to secure 'forward drop locations' to respawn closer to the objective or ECM towers that can be taken and controlled or destroyed or any of a long myriad of dynamic factors that could impact gameplay in a better way.

[DarklightCA]

How is that a broken mechanic? The fact that one side with the more coordinated players will win scouting is usually how games go. Is the less coordinated side suppose to win the game?

Also long tom does not damage/steal kills on a significant level. It no longer nukes mechs in a large radius, I've never even seen the nerfed LT kill anybody the actual chances I got to see it. Also I don't care about your performance. Dynamic gameplay is way more important than your individual performance.

Teammates hurt your performance by damaging/killing mechs but they are always valuable to have and you still make a ton of C-bills after the game. The only way LT is a huge advantage is if as I've stated the attackers were constantly clumped up circle jerking each other the entire game. Something as simple as not face hugging teammates completely negates that "advantage".

Also don't confuse peoples past complaining about long tom as support for your argument. Most people were complaining about the damage it did and wanted it nerfed not the mechanic itself.

Edited by DarklightCA, 31 August 2016 - 08:07 PM.

[Pyorre]

Darklight you do realise that reasons you said are the reason why people hate Long Tom, it's not the damage anymore, the whole concept of the LT is reviled on for what it stood for and that was InstaWin, and nothing PGI does with it, aside from removing it completely will change the opinion about that.

But then again I bet you never faced that PoS in IS mech, Clan mechs can potentially avoid the damage due to their speed but IS side will not, especially if you are in Assaults.

[DarklightCA]

Pyorre, on 31 August 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Darklight you do realise that reasons you said are the reason why people hate Long Tom, it's not the damage anymore, the whole concept of the LT is reviled on for what it stood for and that was InstaWin, and nothing PGI does with it, aside from removing it completely will change the opinion about that.

But then again I bet you never faced that PoS in IS mech, Clan mechs can potentially avoid the damage due to their speed but IS side will not, especially if you are in Assaults.

People hate long tom because it gave the defenders a added dynamic in which to defend their planet that the attackers had to work around? Yea that makes a lot more sense than they just dislike the fact it use to nuke everything around it.

I've faced every inbalance in the gamemode as both IS and Clan. My unit constantly switches contracts from Clan side to IS every contract. I've faced long tom as IS, I've faced it as Clan and I adapted to it and never had a problem with it as either.

[justcallme A S H]

DarklightCA, on 31 August 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

I've faced long tom as IS, I've faced it as Clan and I adapted to it and never had a problem with it as either.

You are in the 1% that can.

The other 99% hate it, won't play against it and a lot of it have stopped playing, because of it. Do you legitimately not understand/see that?

So yeah, support it if you want. Just means more ghost drops really.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 31 August 2016 - 09:04 PM.

[Pat Kell]

I think the timeline for the long tom is a bit skewed here. It nuked people, they nerfed it dramatically so that it wasn't doing much damage at all, they then did a hotfix or some sort of patch that ended up reverting the damage back to it's original parameters and it began killing people instantly again and then finally they nerfed it some. I haven't played with or against it since the last change but that has been primarily because of the lock of an event to draw enough people into scouting in order to get it. If there is an event coming up, you will see that it did not get nerfed enough to really make it very noticeable. Only fully healthy assaults and maybe Heavies will be able to survive it and I am willing to wager that it will strip off almost all their armor.

I seriously can't believe this is still an argument to be honest with you but I'll tell ya what, lets agree to hold off on arguing over this for now as we are both pulling from limited information since the LT has barely showed it's ugly head since the last change. We will wait till after this upcoming event, see how it performs and go from there.

[DarklightCA]

justcallme A S H, on 31 August 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

You are in the 1% that can.

The other 99% hate it, won't play against it and a lot of it have stopped playing, because of it. Do you legitimately not understand/see that?

So yeah, support it if you want. Just means more ghost drops really.

No I understand. I can understand people not wanting to play against it when it was overpowered. I can even understand why people are hesitant to play against it now but what I am saying is that nobody really gave the nerfed version much chance.

People hate it because they still think it's a game breaking mechanic that stacks the defender. Evidence being pretty much every post I've replied to here but it's not that same game breaking mechanic that it use to be.

You do understand that long tom is not the reason the population is in decline right? People stopped playing it because it's a dull gamemode that offers nothing in the way of gameplay or end game content.

It's quickplay without a match maker and planets that don't mean anything with factions that don't mean anything with everybody taking 15 minutes to queue for a game only to be stomped by a organized group or a organized group having no competition at all. Blaming long tom for that fits your argument but that's not reality.

*Edit* I can agree with pat about how ridiculous it is how far this argument about long tom has gone. This will be my last post on this. Mischief as usual don't take what I say as something personal, it's just a discussion. I know you won't agree with me which is fine, I never expected you to.

Edited by DarklightCA, 31 August 2016 - 09:48 PM.

[iLLcapitan]

I totally was on darklight's side with this when they introduced it, but tbh after playing thousands of matches every change to the gamemode is welcomed. I also liked the change of pace, different dynamic, etc
but I had to realize that pretty much everybody hated it and a good share of people stopped playing FW entirely because of it.

As it is, I think the damage is bearable right now but it's still going down too frequently. Make it every 2nd SatSweep and we can work from there.

I want to stress again that some people won't touch FW until LT is removed.


edit: I think we have to find a way to agree on a form of appearance of the LT, because if the roundtable made one thing clear to me, it's that they are dead set on keeping it. No matter what their playerbase thinks... So.. please agree on smth gents

Edited by iLLcapitan, 31 August 2016 - 10:41 PM.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

DarklightCA, on 31 August 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

People hate long tom because it gave the defenders a added dynamic in which to defend their planet that the attackers had to work around? Yea that makes a lot more sense than they just dislike the fact it use to nuke everything around it.

People hate long tom because it gave the defenders clans a added dynamic in which to defend attack their planet that the attackers defenders had to work around?

FTFY

Last event every Steiner planet had Long Tom courtesy Jade Merc Falcons.

[justcallme A S H]

DarklightCA, on 31 August 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

No I understand. I can understand people not wanting to play against it when it was overpowered. I can even understand why people are hesitant to play against it now but what I am saying is that nobody really gave the nerfed version much chance.

People hate it because they still think it's a game breaking mechanic that stacks the defender. Evidence being pretty much every post I've replied to here but it's not that same game breaking mechanic that it use to be.

You do understand that long tom is not the reason the population is in decline right? People stopped playing it because it's a dull gamemode that offers nothing in the way of gameplay or end game content.

It's quickplay without a match maker and planets that don't mean anything with factions that don't mean anything with everybody taking 15 minutes to queue for a game only to be stomped by a organized group or a organized group having no competition at all. Blaming long tom for that fits your argument but that's not reality.

*Edit* I can agree with pat about how ridiculous it is how far this argument about long tom has gone. This will be my last post on this. Mischief as usual don't take what I say as something personal, it's just a discussion. I know you won't agree with me which is fine, I never expected you to.

Don't forget defenders can get a LT as well - doesn't matter who gets it though.

It's not the sole reason, Phase 3 was largely a flop that really, didn't deliver a lot. Either way it's certainly a factor in the overall reasons (note the "S") why. I agree there is far more to it, we've all been over those 100s of times now in the pages on this sub-forum.

Problem is so many had a bad experience with LT, it has left that really bad taste. No amount of nerfing/altering will change 2-3 months of frustration people had with it, and won't forget it. Add to the fact it's an uncontrolled damage mechanic, that will kill you. Where is the fun in it?
I don't wanna be killed by some computer controlled nuke, I'd rather be headshotted by a player

Edited by justcallme A S H, 31 August 2016 - 10:38 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

iLLcapitan, on 31 August 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

I totally was on darklight's side with this when they introduced it, but tbh after playing thousands of matches every change to the gamemode is welcomed. I also liked the change of pace, different dynamic, etc
but I had to realize that pretty much everybody hated it and a good share of people stopped playing FW entirely because of it.

As it is, I think the damage is bearable right now but it's still going down too frequently. Make it every 2nd SatSweep and we can work from there.

I want to stress again that some people won't touch FW until LT is removed.

My views have done exactly this.

For it at the start, realised it's just not what people want.

[Carl Vickers]

LT can be on either offenders of defenders side, just depends on which side wants to spend the time doing it.

Scouting favors the Clans a bit specially in pug land due to skill crows so more often than not, clanners get LT, IS side of queues on a planet dry up as they dont want to get nuked into precious metals.

When you add that on top of more than likely having to face down an organised clan 8+ man and they are a pug team, you get a recipe for disaster and desertion of the FW queues.

[Zolaz]

If Long Tom is bad game design. Yet Russ and crew knows what is best for MWO.

[MischiefSC]

DarklightCA, on 31 August 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

People hate long tom because it gave the defenders a added dynamic in which to defend their planet that the attackers had to work around? Yea that makes a lot more sense than they just dislike the fact it use to nuke everything around it.

I've faced every inbalance in the gamemode as both IS and Clan. My unit constantly switches contracts from Clan side to IS every contract. I've faced long tom as IS, I've faced it as Clan and I adapted to it and never had a problem with it as either.

The fundamental problem here is you're judging LT from the perspective of someone in an effective, coordinated unit. How many of your matches are played against other 12man units playing at your same level? Is it 90% of matches? 50%? 5%?

It adds an 'extra dynamic' in the same way broken game balance adds an 'extra dynamic'. LT works on attack and defense by the way. It doesn't 'add an extra dynamic'. It provides a decisive advantage.

If advantage provided by scouting is decisive then scouting > invasion.

It's really that simple. If it's a decisive advantage you get (whatever it is) then you just win at scouting and you've taken the planet unless there's a huge population imbalance.

So when you happen to get 50% of the games population excited about playing at a significant disadvantage and the other 50% happy to play at a decisive advantage, great. Let me know, it's an amazing accomplishment.

Until that happens though then whatever the result of scouting is, if it's a decisive advantage it will absolutely close the invasion queue. This isn't rocket science or magic or surprising. I'm strongly suspicious that 228 doesn't take LRM builds to MRBC or MWOWC, even though taking bad builds would give you new challenges to work around. You might for giggles in the group queue when it doesn't matter but when you care about the results of the match you take what works best and you work to minimize the disadvantages you play in. Why do you think everyone else isn't the same?

There is no historical basis or rational basis for thinking that the games population will suddenly and inexplicably change how they play. If the modified LT provides anything like a significant advantage added to the existing premade vs pug one it'll empty the queue. It absolutely will, without question, end up on the side that's already got the population and coordination advantage. Because of the nature of scouting balance it absolutely will, as it always has, be hugely one-sided - as in unless it's all either faction is playing it won't stay anywhere near 'middle'. It'll landslide in favor of A) Clans if there's many IS pugs on cuz dem streaks in pug v pug or B ) the side with more teams willing to drop scouting all night.

There is no 'debate' over the impact of LT. There's no 'debate' over how Scouting plays out. There's no 'debate' over how people respond to LT in matches. It's played out for months on end already. The idea that somehow this time it'll be totally different because it got dialed down a bit is a degree of irrational I'm not even sure how to approach.

So when the absolutely predictable happens is the correct response to blame people for not 'giving it enough of a try' or 'not adapting' or is there a new one?

Because what will happen is units will grind scouting, LT will go up, invasion queue will empty. Pugs of both sides will go to scout queue to get matches, IS pugs will get demolished by Clan pugs because when both sides are terrible at aiming the side with the auto-aim weapon has a big edge. LT landside deepens, LT shows up inside first 2 hours, IS population dissolves, people who're giving FW a try for the first time show up and get LTed in Invasion and hate it, show up in Scouting and get streaked and hate it, total FW population declines lower than it was before the event.

Would you care to bet a mech pack on it?

[Scoops Kerensky]

There's no need for PGI to cater or give in to anyone. If you're still playing this after they introduced long toms you'll play no matter what they do and they know it. Have some dignity.

Ha ha ha, that last sentence was old Kuritan joke. Enjoy your mech packs everyone.

[DarklightCA]

MischiefSC, on 01 September 2016 - 12:54 AM, said:

The fundamental problem here is you're judging LT from the perspective of someone in an effective, coordinated unit. How many of your matches are played against other 12man units playing at your same level? Is it 90% of matches? 50%? 5%?

There is no 'debate' over the impact of LT. There's no 'debate' over how Scouting plays out. There's no 'debate' over how people respond to LT in matches. It's played out for months on end already. The idea that somehow this time it'll be totally different because it got dialed down a bit is a degree of irrational I'm not even sure how to approach.

Yes I play with a effective unit. Who has had no problems attacking planets with long tom on it because we understood how it operated and how to negate it's effect. Even how to turn that mechanic around on it's own team. That was when LT was overpowered. I bet nobody here has actually played against the last updated long tom.

It's the same stupid thing as skill scrows in scout mode. Most people can't deal with them and lose to them because they never bother to learn how to counter anything when in reality they are stupid easy to beat. Does that mean skill scrows are a broken build, overpowered? No.

You are right though, there is no debate about long tom because you keep confusing the original version of it when it incorrectly applied too much damage to components to a version nobody has actually tested out.

Edited by DarklightCA, 01 September 2016 - 05:19 AM.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

When 99% of the player base says get rid of it....