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Pts - Energy Draw Sept 1


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#21 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:33 PM

cUAC2 jam time can stand to be a full 25% what it's set at...


You can't blanket adjust weapons and think things will be fine. You need to individually tune weapons, as they are not the same.
cUACs do pay for their double damage (however limited) in their duration (and slightly longer recycle as a result).
8 seconds for two already mediocre weapons to be out of commission is ludicrous.


Not to mention...they did nothing to fix cACs, which have forever sucked balls.
Make THEM not suck, and you may see fewer cUACs, as the choice is between good cUACs, bad LBx, or Terribad cACs.

#22 Monkey Lover

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:36 PM

View PostSpiralFace, on 01 September 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:


They did stress in the notes that it was to test. I'm sure it was because many people where calling for the full 15 over the splash damage when the splash damage was factored into their meter value. Its a full second extra cooldown time over the IS PPC's which gives it almost Gauss rifle level cool-down times for about the same damage its always done. Just now a bit more focused.

Not to mention that it still keeps its Energy value at 15, which means its still going to heavily penalize you if you try to pair anything else with two of them. Even if it is doing more pin-point damage.
Pin point dmg is worse than than the super laser alpha they're trying to limit. It's going to be basically daul gauss mechs running around and now you can easily do it in mediums :)

#23 FupDup

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:37 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:


I didn't miss the duration nerfs... they just don't really mean much at that size - it's a negligible increase. And yeah, it doesn't help mixed builds very much, if at all... but nothing about ED helps mixed builds. Everyone is boating now anyway, and this is a direct buff to boats.

I'll try to help visualize this change with some numbers...let's look at the generic IS Large Laser as a case study.

The statistic I'll be focusing on here will be the amount of damage you deal per second of holding the beam on-target.


Old:
9 damage over 1 second burn = 9 damage per second of burn

New:
8 damage over 1.15 second burn = 6.96 damage per second of burn


That's kinda significant.

#24 ScarecrowES

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:38 PM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 01 September 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

Pin point dmg is worse than than the super laser alpha they're trying to limit. It's going to be basically daul gauss mechs running around and now you can easily do it in mediums Posted Image


How can we say they're trying to limit super laser alpha when they've significantly reduced draw for lasers across the board? ;)

#25 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:38 PM

View PostMoonlight Grimoire, on 01 September 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

As for laser damage getting knocked down? It is now Tabletop Values instead of over inflated damage with little to no increase in heat. This is good for trying to balance at a baseline. While I am not happy about SPL's and SL's getting a draw reduction, I still feel overall this is all very much a step in the right direction over PTS 2. Now, time to patch and test.


View PostScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

So... Lasers see a massive buff, UACs are made worse, and nerfs to ballistics slightly rolled back. As if people weren't flocking to laser vomit already.


You're both missing the part about duration. Essentially, the IS LL (which wasn't really popular, not that it isn't used) has the duration closer to a live-server Clan LPL.

Damage is not as relevant if you're going to be outtraded outright.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 September 2016 - 03:38 PM.


#26 ScarecrowES

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:40 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 September 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

I'll try to help visualize this change with some numbers...let's look at the generic IS Large Laser as a case study.

The statistic I'll be focusing on here will be the amount of damage you deal per second of holding the beam on-target.


Old:
9 damage over 1 second burn = 9 damage per second of burn

New:
8 damage over 1.15 second burn = 6.96 damage per second of burn


That's kinda significant.


Sure... and that might be a big deal if you can only mount one or two large lasers... no argument here. But now you can mount and fire more at a time. So alpha capacity increased. This isn't really a change that hurts mechs with a LOT of lasers. They can just fire more at a time now than they could before to offset the loss of pure damage.

#27 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:42 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:


Sure... and that might be a big deal if you can only mount one or two large lasers... no argument here. But now you can mount and fire more at a time. So alpha capacity increased. This isn't really a change that hurts mechs with a LOT of lasers. They can just fire more at a time now than they could before to offset the loss of pure damage.


The power draw values are kinda irrelevant for lasers, as those changes are minute (they might as well not have happened, and noone would care.

CERMEDs are incredible on the PTS, and would easily outtrade IS LL.

That brings up all the red flags for bad balance.

#28 FupDup

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:43 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:


The power draw values are kinda irrelevant for lasers, as those changes are minute (they might as well not have happened, and noone would care.

CERMEDs are incredible on the PTS, and would easily outtrade IS LL.

That brings up all the red flags for bad balance.

The "one ton large laser" complaint from the pre-Clan days is now more true than ever.

Le sadface. :(

#29 Wintersdark

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:43 PM

View PostJman5, on 01 September 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Those PPC buffs are making me nervous.
Which? The IS PPC's were junk in pts2, a little op in pts1, this is in the middle.


I'm very happy with cERPPC's being 15 damage (they're supposed to be) but I expect they're going to need either higher draw (probable) and/or more heat to compensate.

However, 15dmg cERPPC's makes them much more viable weapons for mechs mounting one, and that's great. Higher power draw directly pulls back on boating them, so that'll probably be necessary.

#30 ScarecrowES

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:44 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:


The power draw values are kinda irrelevant for lasers, as those changes are minute (they might as well not have happened, and noone would care.

CERMEDs are incredible on the PTS, and would easily outtrade IS LL.

That brings up all the red flags for bad balance.


Which is what I'm saying... we really should NOT have reduced consumption like that. A bit of duration and a slight damage reduction in larger lasers isn't going to curb the sorts of behavior we're seeing on the PTS. Reducing draw is actually going to encourage it.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 01 September 2016 - 03:45 PM.


#31 Sjorpha

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:45 PM

Nerfs to large lasers make little sense to me.

That 15pp cERPPC looks absolutely insane, it's already becoming one of the best weapons on live with the HBK-IIC-A and Kodiak, this is going to make those builds even better.

It also increases the performance gap between IS and Clan PPCs, which makes zero sense since the IS versions are actually heavier and should be slightly better to than the clan version to compensate for that. I would honestly make more sense to give the IS ERPPC 15 damage than the clan one.

You could give the Clan ERPPC the same damage to heat ratio as the IS ERPPC, meaning 22.5 heat. That might work. But 15 pinpoint for 15 Heat at that range, nope.

Edited by Sjorpha, 01 September 2016 - 03:47 PM.


#32 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:46 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:


Which is what I'm saying... we really should NOT have reduced consumption like that. A bit of duration and a slight damage reduction in larger lasers isn't going to curb the sorts of behavior we're seeing on the PTS. It's actually going to encourage it.


It's not slight, it's losing outright.

Clans would already win the laservomit wars, if that were to happen. The only thing that would save them is a 7 ton weapon (IS LPL), instead of a 5 ton weapon (IS LL) vs that 1 ton weapon (CERMED).

Edited by Deathlike, 01 September 2016 - 03:47 PM.


#33 Mystere

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:48 PM

View PostJman5, on 01 September 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Those PPC buffs are making me nervous.


They're making me giddy.

Posted Image

#34 ScarecrowES

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:49 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:


It's not slight, it's losing outright.

Clans would already win the laservomit wars, if that were to happen. The only thing that would save them is a 7 ton weapon (IS LPL), instead of a 5 ton weapon (IS LL) vs that 1 ton weapon (CERMED).


Oh... Clans will benefit heavily under this, no doubt. I think it will be a buff for IS laser boats too. Those penalties will not hurt those mechs at all... not now that they can fire more in a single volley, their DPS is going to go way up. Poor IS mixed builds though. There's really nothing in this round of changes that helps mixed builds at all, and IS gets the short end of it all around.

#35 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:51 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:


Oh... Clans will benefit heavily under this, no doubt. I think it will be a buff for IS laser boats too. Those penalties will not hurt those mechs at all... not now that they can fire more in a single volley, their DPS is going to go way up. Poor IS mixed builds though. There's really nothing in this round of changes that helps mixed builds at all, and IS gets the short end of it all around.


How is it logically a buff to IS laser boats?

The nerfs hurt the IS far greater than Clans. There is literally no instance where an IS laserboat benefits from increased duration from their primarily mid range weapon when the Clan does theirs better, with something that requires lower tonnage.

#36 Mystere

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:52 PM

View PostRampage, on 01 September 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Looks like some changes in the right direction.


I don't know about you, but a per-weapon draw value just makes ED more complicated than GH as far as I am concerned.

Edited by Mystere, 02 September 2016 - 06:29 AM.


#37 FupDup

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:53 PM

About the Ultra 2...

It's been calculated in the past that the Clam AC/2 actually had superior DPS over the double-tapping Ultra 2 because the jam time of 5 seconds was disproportionately long compared to the base reload time of the gun.

I wonder how the 8-second jam but 7% jam RNGesus chance affects this...

#38 ScarecrowES

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:55 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:


How is it logically a buff to IS laser boats?

The nerfs hurt the IS far greater than Clans. There is literally no instance where an IS laserboat benefits from increased duration from their primarily mid range weapon when the Clan does theirs better, with something that requires lower tonnage.


Well, now we can fire one more of any given large laser type without significant penalties. Duration nerfs are miniscule. I can't imagine most people will be able to tell the difference between 0.67 and 0.8 seconds of burn, especially over the course of the full cycle of the weapon. But you can bet people will notice being able to fire an extra large laser in a volley, and the damage that comes with that.

In a system that concerns itself with limiting damage directly, and change that increases the amount of damage one can do would be a buff. The accompanying nerfs still make it a net gain in output.

#39 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:56 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:


How is it logically a buff to IS laser boats?

The nerfs hurt the IS far greater than Clans. There is literally no instance where an IS laserboat benefits from increased duration from their primarily mid range weapon when the Clan does theirs better, with something that requires lower tonnage.

And are the IS LL nerfs based on non-quirk data or the data w/weapon quirks, and are the quirks being considered in the data??? PGI has not said anything one way or another, nor should we ASSUME it is being done a specific way...

Jezz people, get on the same page... :)

#40 ScarecrowES

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:57 PM

View PostMystere, on 01 September 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:


I don't know about you, but a per-weapon draw value just makes ED more complicated that GH as far as I am concerned.


Right? I thought this system was supposed to reduce the number of rules? This doesn't seem like a reduction. We're beyond even having one rule for a class of weapons to having each weapon have its own rule. Major eye roll.





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