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Pts - Energy Draw Sept 1


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#41 Dusk Raven

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:01 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

UAC jam duration makes no sense. They all have the same values (the length of time specifically), so it hurts more for a lower caliber/class UAC than it does a bigger version. That needs to be changed. A CUAC2 should not have the same 5s wait than a CUAC20. It's as simple as that.

The IS large laser gets an unwanted nerf more than anything else listed here. The IS ERLL is no better. That's just awful considering the alternative options.


Just a friendly reminder that if you jammed your Ultra Autocannons in Tabletop, you wouldn't be able to use them until to successfully make a piloting skill check.. I'm pretty sure an 8 second downtime is sufficient, rather than having to try unjamming the damn thing yourself in some sort of idiotic gears of war esque or button-mashing minigame or what have you.

#42 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:02 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

Well, now we can fire one more of any given large laser type without significant penalties. Duration nerfs are miniscule. I can't imagine most people will be able to tell the difference between 0.67 and 0.8 seconds of burn, especially over the course of the full cycle of the weapon. But you can bet people will notice being able to fire an extra large laser in a volley, and the damage that comes with that.


The 4th LL is the least of your problems, when you're spending 5x more in tonnage and double on the slots just to keep up with the CERMED, which 4 of them are already effective as is.

Duration nerfs are NOT inconsequential in this instance.

I should've have to invoke his name, but this is Gyrok level of balance. There is a reason that we must talk about IS LL vs CERMED due to massive power per tonnage/crits differences. If you ignore the basis of that discussion, then you're dramatically changing who is more powerful in that particular matchup (and this normally favors clans).


Quote

In a system that concerns itself with limiting damage directly, and change that increases the amount of damage one can do would be a buff. The accompanying nerfs still make it a net gain in output.


That's not enough of a buff when I could run 4 CERMED in an Ice Ferret and call melting everything bigger than me a day (because lol IS LL is not a competitor).

#43 Quicksilver Kalasa

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:02 PM

IS PPCs are sadface, seriously, if you are going to buff the Clan ERPPC to 15 damage, you need to give the IS PPC 12 damage (12 draw), that way we can also slowly shift weapons to be like their MW4 counterparts, slowly but surely.

The laser changes make me scratch my head with regards to tech balance though, especially the poor IS LL.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 September 2016 - 04:03 PM.


#44 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:03 PM

So much about this that I like.

Taking feedback that 1 damage is not always equal to 1 damage, based on damage application type? Check.

Taking player feedback in general? Huge check.

Giving C-ERPPC the teeth they always should have had? Humongous check.

On the latter, I never expected PGI to test beyond around 13.5 damage, but given ED limits all weapons based on damage output, this is the perfect time to make it the hot gauss it should be. It's also a huge boon to smaller Clan mechs. C-ERPPC are hot, even without ED or ghost heat. Boating them might not be the greatest idea in the world on a larger mech. However, 15 damage C-ERPPC gives smaller Clan mechs, like the MLX or the ADR, or the SHC access to a high damage weapon system. They can finally, finally go for a "few but large" gun approach, especially when they lack the hardpoints to go with the "many but small" approach.

#45 Wintersdark

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:05 PM

View PostMystere, on 01 September 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:


I don't know about you, but a per-weapon draw value just makes ED more complicated that GH as far as I am concerned.
Yes.

As I've said from the beginning, you can't have simpler than GH and better working than GH, at least not with GH 2.0. the whole critical failing with GH is that it's simple and insufficient.

Now, let's not get into the other solutions thing - I agree there, but this is the duck we have.

ED is more complex than GH, but it's also more transparent and visible to the user. More complex but easier to use(barring simply never equipping things that could potentially trigger GH, but that's dumb). Fire, watch the gauge move. Very straight forward.




View PostPariah Devalis, on 01 September 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

So much about this that I like.

Taking feedback that 1 damage is not always equal to 1 damage, based on damage application type? Check.

Taking player feedback in general? Huge check.

Giving C-ERPPC the teeth they always should have had? Humongous check.

On the latter, I never expected PGI to test beyond around 13.5 damage, but given ED limits all weapons based on damage output, this is the perfect time to make it the hot gauss it should be. It's also a huge boon to smaller Clan mechs. C-ERPPC are hot, even without ED or ghost heat. Boating them might not be the greatest idea in the world on a larger mech. However, 15 damage C-ERPPC gives smaller Clan mechs, like the MLX or the ADR, or the SHC access to a high damage weapon system. They can finally, finally go for a "few but large" gun approach, especially when they lack the hardpoints to go with the "many but small" approach.
incidentally this is also a huge pro for the Summoner, for the same reason as with the lighter clan mechs.

#46 FupDup

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:06 PM

View PostDusk Raven, on 01 September 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

Just a friendly reminder that if you jammed your Ultra Autocannons in Tabletop, you wouldn't be able to use them until to successfully make a piloting skill check.. I'm pretty sure an 8 second downtime is sufficient, rather than having to try unjamming the damn thing yourself in some sort of idiotic gears of war esque or button-mashing minigame or what have you.

It's almost as if the Tabletop version of Ultra Autocannons would be extremely unfun in a game like this, or any game really.

It's the same reason why MWO also changed the MASC mechanic to not instantly and permanently immobilize you for activating it.

#47 Tiantara

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:06 PM

- Wow! Nice changes. Soon in my post I add new comments based on test.

#48 ScarecrowES

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:08 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:


The 4th LL is the least of your problems, when you're spending 5x more in tonnage and double on the slots just to keep up with the CERMED, which 4 of them are already effective as is.

Duration nerfs are NOT inconsequential in this instance.

I should've have to invoke his name, but this is Gyrok level of balance. There is a reason that we must talk about IS LL vs CERMED due to massive power per tonnage/crits differences. If you ignore the basis of that discussion, then you're dramatically changing who is more powerful in that particular matchup (and this normally favors clans).




That's not enough of a buff when I could run 4 CERMED in an Ice Ferret and call melting everything bigger than me a day (because lol IS LL is not a competitor).


I'm not disagreeing with any of that. It hurts balance all over. My point was less about overall balance, and more about how, in the eyes of ED and its number one mission (reduce simultaneous output), we're now at a point where simultaneous damage output for large lasers is actually HIGHER than under GH.

#49 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:10 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 01 September 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Yes.

As I've said from the beginning, you can't have simpler than GH and better working than GH, at least not with GH 2.0. the whole critical failing with GH is that it's simple and insufficient.

Now, let's not get into the other solutions thing - I agree there, but this is the duck we have.

ED is more complex than GH, but it's also more transparent and visible to the user. More complex but easier to use(barring simply never equipping things that could potentially trigger GH, but that's dumb). Fire, watch the gauge move. Very straight forward.




incidentally this is also a huge pro for the Summoner, for the same reason as with the lighter clan mechs.


Yep. Summoner, Mist Lynx, Adder, Ice Ferret, Shadow Cat, and Linebacker will all benefit tremendously, I imagine. Mechs with either too few hardpoints to boat smaller lasers, or too little tonnage to carry enough weapons plus cooling are going to reap the rewards.

Warhawk Prime might be a bit terrifying, though. Which is good. At least it will finally deserve the focus fire its misidentification keeps resulting in.

#50 Ironically Ironclad Irony

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:11 PM

View PostTibbnak, on 01 September 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

Maybe this time Russ's dart will land on the server ini config that will truly perfect his minimal effort bandaid?


If they wanted to be lazy they would have used "shaky cam", movement, and agility modifers to penalize high heat. Lore friendly and already in the game in some form or fashion.

Shaky cam? JJ or MASC
Movement and agility modifiers? Done through being legged, quirks, and even a module.

People have asked for this and it would literally be the easiest thing to test because all the mechanics are there to utilize.

PGI, please, just try one go of this in the PTS and lets see if its not somewhat more intuitive than GH and ED.

#51 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:12 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:


I'm not disagreeing with any of that. It hurts balance all over. My point was less about overall balance, and more about how, in the eyes of ED and its number one mission (reduce simultaneous output), we're now at a point where simultaneous damage output for large lasers is actually HIGHER than under GH.


Ghost Heat is tolerable despite me wanting it gone. Even if you ignore the Energy Draw values... the stated weapon values alone completely favor Clan energy (mostly in the CERMED) far more than the IS.

If you applied many of the values on the live server (CERMED+ISLL, with the ISLL+CERMED getting a GH Cap value of 4), the IS LL would still be irrelevant because of the new values themselves nerfing them significantly.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 September 2016 - 04:16 PM.


#52 Navid A1

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:12 PM

First imprssions:
I like the changes to PPCs (both IS and Clan).
I do not understand why IS large lasers were changed.
UAC energy draws are now more in line with how they work (multiple shells).
I don't like gauss explosion chances (give IS 50% and give clan 80%)

Sadly, I won't have access to my PC to test anything else


and lastly... PGI... PLEASE NORMALISE SPREAD AMONG ALL LRMs!!!!!!

Edited by Navid A1, 01 September 2016 - 04:12 PM.


#53 East Indy

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:18 PM

If I step back, I see across-the-board shifts to direct-fire weapons that should increase TTK independently of Energy Draw.

My concern is that since 2012, the go-to has been "Nerf the weapon!" which has tended to handicap non-boating 'Mechs and reward boats.

Definitely testing boats tonight.

#54 Gentleman Reaper

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:26 PM

Ok, after taking a long look at these changes, seems like this wasn't intended as further tuning from PTS2, rather to look at everything from their base TT stats, and balance them from scratch. Hopefully Russ confirms this...

#55 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:28 PM

Also, cUAC20 has 28 Power Draw as a typo, instead of the intended 18

All teh nerfs

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 September 2016 - 04:31 PM.


#56 Dusk Raven

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:29 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 September 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

It's almost as if the Tabletop version of Ultra Autocannons would be extremely unfun in a game like this, or any game really.

It's the same reason why MWO also changed the MASC mechanic to not instantly and permanently immobilize you for activating it.


The point of this was "It could've been worse." The global jam chance on UACs is fine, since you'll be jamming C-UAC/2 a LOT less than C-UAC/20. If you're worried about jam chance, then just run standard C-ACs.

What I can't wrap my head around is the IS Large Pulse Laser nerf, since at that point you're spending more heat generation and energy draw for +1 damage per laser. Whoop-dee-friggin-doo. When you can run something with 2 less tons, less heat generation, less energy draw, more range, with the trade-off of -1 damage. Again, whoop-dee-friggin-doo.

And the C-ERPPC doing 15 damage is absurd. Just remove the splash damage and the extra 5 damage. To make the C-ERPPC > IS ERPPC do the following: Increase Velocity, Increase Range, Decrease Heat Generation, Decrease Energy Draw. Pretty much anything that doesn't modify the damage because at that point you're creating a statistically inferior weapon I.E. the IS ERPPC. Make the C-ERPPC optimal at 860m. Make the speed 1,950. Pretty much anything other than the damage increase is fine.

#57 L3mming2

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:30 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 September 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

About the Ultra 2...

It's been calculated in the past that the Clam AC/2 actually had superior DPS over the double-tapping Ultra 2 because the jam time of 5 seconds was disproportionately long compared to the base reload time of the gun.

I wonder how the 8-second jam but 7% jam RNGesus chance affects this...


prelimenary testing makes it look like a buff, i can dps my draw bar empty quite easy now on a 6 uac2 dire the macro for it is so glorious (it still wont be a gr8 build but so what if this gets in to life i will run that build for days, the amount of dakka is so godly)

Edited by L3mming2, 01 September 2016 - 04:31 PM.


#58 JC Daxion

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:31 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

So... Lasers see a massive buff, UACs are made worse, and nerfs to ballistics slightly rolled back. As if people weren't flocking to laser vomit already.



i don't think you are reading the notes right.. How is longer duration, and all lasers got -1 damage and clan large pulse -2 a buff?

#59 Deathlike

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:38 PM

View PostJC Daxion, on 01 September 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:



i don't think you are reading the notes right.. How is longer duration, and all lasers got -1 damage and clan large pulse -2 a buff?


He's hung up on the energy draw value changes, and not about the more practical aspects of the weapon... duration and damage.

#60 Sergei Pavlov

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:43 PM

I can't still fathom why don't they just:

1) Decrease Heat Capacity to 30,

2) Remove DHS ability to increase it.

TTK was perfect during Closed Beta. The heat mechanics worked. But then someone decided to introduce heat-capacity-increasing DHS and everything got screwed up, until today.

Ghost Heat, ED... all these convoluted mechanics are just trying to compensate the absurd way DHS work in this game.

Restore sanity (DHS reducing your heat twice as fast, no more, no less), and everything fixes itself.

I just don't see myself memorizing another set of numbers per weapon, especially knowing how completely unnecesary they are.





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