241 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

FupDup, on 01 September 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

Also note that the saved weight and slots allow for more heatsinks, meaning that the 2 CERPPC setup will have superior heat efficiency over the 3 ISPPC setup.

... and the 2 slot DHS can be placed all over your Mech, and Clan XL is always viable for more weight savings and internal DHS...

My Hunchback IIC is going to like this...

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 September 2016 - 05:45 PM.

[1453 R]

ANYWAYS.

So...as hawt as those cERPPC buffs are, I cannot imagine them sticking, not even with the inevitable monster draw/heat nerfs. No way in hell we're going to be able to keep a six-ton non-explodey Gauss Rifle. I forget which dev it was who said, a long while back, that he would only let 15 PPFLD Clan PPCs into the game over his cold, rotting corpse...but he clearly doesn't work here anymore.

Better get my Adder-ing done while I can. Good God almighty I wish I had my Vipers on PTS...but, can see about testing some other junk whilst the ol' meathooks hold out. Still, do not see a lot of positive in these particular notes outside of the ED draw value adjustments.

[Felicitatem Parco]

1453 R, on 01 September 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

ANYWAYS.

So...as hawt as those cERPPC buffs are, I cannot imagine them sticking, not even with the inevitable monster draw/heat nerfs. No way in hell we're going to be able to keep a six-ton non-explodey Gauss Rifle. I forget which dev it was who said, a long while back, that he would only let 15 PPFLD Clan PPCs into the game over his cold, rotting corpse...but he clearly doesn't work here anymore.

Better get my Adder-ing done while I can. Good God almighty I wish I had my Vipers on PTS...but, can see about testing some other junk whilst the ol' meathooks hold out. Still, do not see a lot of positive in these particular notes outside of the ED draw value adjustments.

Hey, I always used PTS as a playground. This is no exception... I am just flat surprised someone thought this was a good idea.

[1453 R]

Prosperity Park, on 01 September 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Hey, I always used PTS as a playground. This is no exception... I am just flat surprised someone thought this was a good idea.

Frankly, I really wish we could keep 15-damage cERPPCs, for all the reasons other folks have mentioned. Clan machines that frequently end up hardpoint-starved could really use the boost. That and the splashy model has always felt kinda bad, especially with the slowball projectiles PPCs currently suffer from.

I just don't see it happening, though. As awesome as it'd be for Shadowcats and Summoners and Adders and stuff, it'll be outright overwhelming on Gigaspike Kodiaks. Thirty PPFLD damage every three seconds - first the Gauss, then the PPCs. ED doesn't even bother it, and the Gauss are basically heat-free. The bloody things are going to be a nightmare this PTS run.

[N0MAD]

Deathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

I assume no quirks first and foremost. Yes, those quirks will affect results, but a 10% duration isn't enough to compare against CERMEDs by the outright tonnage trading. It's a straightforward loss on that front.

i dont totally disagree but again you are short changing by saying a 10% change to 1 attribute, most quirked lassers will also have a cooldown/range/-heat bonus extra even all, giving alot of quirked weapons multiple bonuses, so 10% to this + 10% +10% etc is a big big difference if you are using base stats for wep in question...

[Deathlike]

N0MAD, on 01 September 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

i dont totally disagree but again you are short changing by saying a 10% change to 1 attribute, most quirked lassers will also have a cooldown/range/-heat bonus extra even all, giving alot of quirked weapons multiple bonuses, so 10% to this + 10% +10% etc is a big big difference if you are using base stats for wep in question...

The IS mechs with greater duration quirks are not as many as the "generic" laser duration quirk you'll see, and again... you only limit the effectiveness of that already weakened weapon to those mechs in question.

While... I could be using any laservomit Clan Mech with 4 CERMED and never need to be specializing (if I even get bonuses, like on the Badder or Ice Ferret... I'm already ahead of the game).

Again... you have the assertion that IS LL has been a real thing on current IS mechs... and they aren't. That's why I'm making these statements (it's not like the quirks for mechs are being changed with this PTS).

Edited by Deathlike, 01 September 2016 - 06:07 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

ScarecrowES, on 01 September 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

I'm not disagreeing with any of that. It hurts balance all over. My point was less about overall balance, and more about how, in the eyes of ED and its number one mission (reduce simultaneous output), we're now at a point where simultaneous damage output for large lasers is actually HIGHER than under GH.

It has always been my understanding that this system was not intended to eliminate Alphas nor was it meant to limit the size of Alphas. Alphas belong in BT and MW and MWO. The intent of the system was to prevent the multiple Alphas back to back that are currently possible. Some Mechs are able to fire substantial Alphas 2-4 times before overheating if they exploit the loopholes in GH properly.

If Russ or Paul have said that the goal is to limit the size of Alphas then I hope someone will give me a link to where they said it because I have not seen it and therefore I am not evaluating and giving feedback on this system based on that being a goal.

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 01 September 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

Frankly, I really wish we could keep 15-damage cERPPCs, for all the reasons other folks have mentioned. Clan machines that frequently end up hardpoint-starved could really use the boost. That and the splashy model has always felt kinda bad, especially with the slowball projectiles PPCs currently suffer from.

I just don't see it happening, though. As awesome as it'd be for Shadowcats and Summoners and Adders and stuff, it'll be outright overwhelming on Gigaspike Kodiaks. Thirty PPFLD damage every three seconds - first the Gauss, then the PPCs. ED doesn't even bother it, and the Gauss are basically heat-free. The bloody things are going to be a nightmare this PTS run.

Or just push ED for them up to 20. That means you can fire 15 damage per second with them (assuming you've got a very large number, given that really long cooldown) but firing two (assuming a full E bar) would be 30 heat + 10 overdraw=40 heat. Doable, but brutal. That's the sort of heat load that really discourages anything else.

That way, single ERPPC's, and sometimes two are usable, but more just isn't practical short of chaining (and 15 damage hits are perfectly reasonable there). Not going to be a lot of 30 point strikes with them. That's a LOT of heat load, and a full 2 seconds after firing two before you're at a full bar of energy again.

[DAYLEET]

FupDup, on 01 September 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

Because 30 points of DoT or spread is inferior to 30 points of PPFLD. Spread/DoT weapons are supposed to have larger alpha strikes to compensate for not being PPFLD.

30 points of spread damage already is inferior to 30 points of FLD but being able to aim and re-aim lasers at any range and chose how many you shoot at once to manage heat damage etc make up for it.

[Ultimax]

Good
1) PPC family numbers look to be in a decent place.

2) I like the reductions across the board for energy draw - especially the ballistics & PPCs.

3) Small & Medium Class laser changes look good.

Bad
1) UAC Jam Chances beyond 15%. This is already an unfun mechanic. The CUAC 20 is a very risky weapon now, this change basically kills it. You do not bring a close ranged weapon that can fail 20% of the time. That's awful.

2) Comparing CUACs to CACs is one of the worst comparisons I've seen in a while - of course they are better. CACs are a garbage placeholder weapon that have been literally irrelevant from day 1. They are worse than IS Ballistics and worse than CUACs - they have no reason to exist and should not be used for comparisons.

3) Large Class Lasers: Covered below.

Paul Inouye, on 01 September 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

As mentioned earlier, Duration based weapons have been re-configured with a .9 to 1 Damage to draw ratio in order to differentiate them from direct damage projectile weapons. Many of these weapons have been performing just below the threshold for where we would like them to be, so we hope this slight boost better defines them against one another. Although there are some in this group that we are keeping a very close eye on.

The Energy Draw/Damage ratio is not worth the slew of nerfs added.


LLAS: Would rather have higher draw and more useful stats. Durations beyond 1s are one of the least fun mechanics you have invented, please re-think this as it is nearly universally despised.

These changes basically do nothing useful for the LLAS.

ERLLAS: Similar to the LLAS, except worse. I'm not sure how you can remotely justify putting this weapon's duration within 0.05s of the now clearly superior (after these changes) in every single way Clan ERLLAS. This is a huge mistake.

LPL: This was previously the picture of perfect balance in PTS 2. You could only fire 3 of them, for 30 damage and 30 energy draw - it was basically the ideal. This iteration is an across the board nerf. Less damage, over more time with an energy draw that prevents you from combining it with pretty much anything useful.

CERLLAS: This weapon might actually be in a good place, finally after 2+ years of existence. This weapon should go live with these stats before they are touched again to see what mass use of the weapon actually does.

CLPL: If you're goal is to see this weapon replace by the CERLLAS through nerfing, well done. This is what you will accomplish. 11 damage for 10 heat with a 1.2s duration and a limitation on it's max range - yikes, say goodbye to this weapon for a while.

Paul Inouye, on 01 September 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

The reduction in ED of beam based weapons combined with testing data pointing to many Large laser class weapons performing above the curb under the context of ED has had us re-evaluate the entire Large laser line for this test. We would like to stress that these stats are not final and are for testing purposes at this time.

• Gauss Rifle ( IS and Clan)
  
  • Energy Consumption decreased to 18 (from 20)

We are rolling back a little bit of the Gauss’ ED from the previous PTS to be consistent with the roll back in the other direct damage weapons, but we will be monitoring this change closely, as we do not wish to see it return to being a weapon that is taken to simply offset the effects of the heat penalties.

This does nothing, it's still too high to alpha with pretty much anything useful for both factions without going over energy draw.

Here's an idea, set it back to 20 and then drop the Cooldown to 5.5 or 6s so it's not a liability inside 400m.

Edited by Ultimax, 01 September 2016 - 06:29 PM.

[FupDup]

DAYLEET, on 01 September 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

30 points of spread damage already is inferior to 30 points of FLD but being able to aim and re-aim lasers at any range and chose how many you shoot at once to manage heat damage etc make up for it.

Re-aiming during the duration of the beam can result in the "lightsabering" effect where damage is spread over several body parts.

One of the advantages of lasers to make up for DoT is having larger alpha strikes than PPFLD weapons of equal/greater weight. The old 1:1 damage:power ratio eliminates this advantage.

[DAYLEET]

FupDup, on 01 September 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

Re-aiming during the duration of the beam can result in the "lightsabering" effect where damage is spread over several body parts.

One of the advantages of lasers to make up for DoT is having larger alpha strikes than PPFLD weapons of equal/greater weight. The old 1:1 damage:power ratio eliminates this advantage.

And are we tweaking stuff down from where we were at the first PTS or are we just increasing underperformers to the current PTS best in the purest powercreep tradition?

Well just i realised i followed a link into the feedback section which is no place to argue. ill see myself out.

Edited by DAYLEET, 01 September 2016 - 06:49 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

FupDup, on 01 September 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

Let's compare the PPC damage over time for both factions.

IS [ER]PPC: 10 damage / 5 second reload = 2.0 DPS

Clan ERPPC: 15 damage (now fully direct) / 6 second reload = 2.5 DPS


The Clan ERPPC has 25% more DPS than either Inner Sphere PPC variant, while having 50% more alpha strike damage.


The part about "not combining well with other guns" doesn't matter that much, because Power Draw forces you to limit your alpha strike damage anyways. You can spend your extra weight on lots of heatsinks, which ERPPCs are very hungry for...

yyyup, now gimme my cooldown back and take my pinpoint damage away. Until then I'll by caving in faces very grumpily.

[Stonefalcon]

Paul Inouye, on 01 September 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

• PPCs
  
  • PPC:
    
    • Energy Consumption decreased to 10 Energy total (from 12)
      
    • Cooldown Duration lowered to 5s (from 5.25)
  • ER PPC:
    
    • Energy Consumption decreased to 10 total (from 12)
      
    • Cooldown Duration lowered to 5s (from 5.25)
  • C ER PPC:
    
    • Splash damage removed
      
    • Damage increased to 15 (from 10)
      
    • Cooldown Duration increased to 6 (from 5.25)

Along with some cooldown tuning on the IS PPCs, with the reduction of the ED value of the PPC, we felt like it was a good time to test giving the clan PPC its full 15 damage. With a 50% increase to its pin point damage, this needs to come with a further cooldown increase to the Clan ER PPC to keep its overall DPS in line with other long ranged weapons.

Paul, I guess you guys haven't tested the AWS-8Q. Even with PTS2.0 you could fire off 5 PPCs while standing in the Lava in the caldera of Terra Therma and walk away at 105% heat, but I thank thee for buffing PPCs.

[CMetz]

With the fear of pitchforks and torches... I was thinking it would actually be pretty interesting to drop the max energy draw to 25 and then restore every single weapon to 1:1 damage to energy. I can't be the only one that thinks this game would become a hell of a lot more fun if no one was running around squeezing off high damage alphas all the time... One would think this would encourage an environment with more of a rolling battle. TTK will drastically increase, and an alpha will actually be a serious risk.

Who knows, though. Maybe I've just read far too many BT novels, like too much lore, and want too much drastic change. Before you tar and feather me, however, think about how the changes would actually play out and decide for yourself if you think that would be more fun.

[East Indy]

CMetz, on 01 September 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

With the fear of pitchforks and torches... I was thinking it would actually be pretty interesting to drop the max energy draw to 25

It's a test server — why stop at 25? Try 20. Either Energy Draw controls giant boat alphas or it doesn't. Right now, it's looking like it doesn't. Anyone who'd throw a fit over it doesn't want the game to change.

[Dee Eight]

Ya know...the fact they neutered the damage outputs of large lasers will likely mean that we'll actually see more ER PPCs used than LPLs in their place. I'm quite fine with that, even if it means being on the receiving end of 15 damage C-ER PPCs. Now if they'd only get the range and heat values correct between ER LLs and ER-PPCs (ie the lasers are supposed to shoot further, not the other way around, and they're supposed to be 12 heat not 8 or 10).

[Deathlike]

Dee Eight, on 01 September 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

Ya know...the fact they neutered the damage outputs of large lasers will likely mean that we'll actually see more ER PPCs used than LPLs in their place. I'm quite fine with that, even if it means being on the receiving end of 15 damage C-ER PPCs. Now if they'd only get the range and heat values correct between ER LLs and ER-PPCs (ie the lasers are supposed to shoot further, not the other way around, and they're supposed to be 12 heat not 8 or 10).

Say what?

IS LPL will still get used... not to the same extent.

IS LL/ERLL is an afterthought, and the IS ERPPC is far worse than its clan counterpart. At that point, you have PPCs or short range lasers (LPL, med, etc.) as your alternatives.

You aren't shifting to weapons that are getting nerfed excessively... unless you don't care or notice.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 September 2016 - 07:56 PM.

[Sereglach]

Well, first and foremost, I hope we see Flamers fixed and brought into Energy Draw before its all over. Also, we've seen absolutely no love for LRM's which are woefully out of balance. I feel now we're just tinkering with numbers on the "popular" and "meta" stuff while we're wasting a great opportunity to bring floundering weapon systems up to par and make them at least decent weapon systems.

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Now that that's said:

1: Apparently this is a trial of seeing how ED works with "closer to TT" values in some facets? My HUGE concern over that is that TT is an arms race to Clan tech. While it doesn't have things like beam duration and cooldowns to work with in the schemes of balance, the changes made are putting weapons like the 5 ton 2 slot IS LL in the precarious place of being monstrously outclassed by 1 ton 1 slot Clan ERML. I don't care what ED values you use . . . at that point the balance becomes broken.

2: PPC's . . . while I don't see much wrong with the IS PPC changes, that Clan PPC change is really leery to me. It'll require testing . . . and maybe it'll work great. If PPFLD is 1:1 Damage to ED then maybe they've got a chance of being reasonably balanced. Personally, though, it just doesn't set right with me. We were actually working towards methodology of making IS vs. Clan tech unique/different and yet reasonably balanced. Now we're starting to give the Clans the "overwhelming teeth" of TT without any of their TT disadvantages. As others have stated already in this thread, things like 2 C-ERPPCs + 9 extra DHS for 30 PPFLD vs. 3 IS ERPPCs for 30 PPFLD -at equal tonnage- becomes a joke of gameplay balance.

3: I think the exact opposite balancing approach should have been taken on UAC weapons. Set the chance to jam at a fixed value, like 10%, and then make the downtime of the weapon proportional to the size of the weapon system. Maybe something along the lines of 2/4/6/8 seconds downtime on the jam for a UAC 2/5/10/20? That's -roughly- 2 missed shots (or 4 double-tap shots) of the weapon systems across the board, when jammed.

However, if you want to look at making standard AC's useful vs. Ultra countarparts, why not go to the measures of looking at projectile counts. How about this . . . why not consider having the Clan AC's fire half the number of projectiles of their UAC counterparts? In the case of single projectile weapons, like the UAC/2, then lower the cooldown of the standard AC by 25%. If PPFLD is so valuable, then having less spread within the standard AC's will make them considerably more desirable.

On the other hand, you could just get rid of the jam chance on UAC's in general and consider upping their cooldown by 10% while lowering the cooldown on standard autocannons by 15% (creating an approx. 25% gap). Then to cap it off you give the standard AC's lower energy draw and give the UAC's the energy draw of PPFLD weapons (1:1 ratio) . . . afterwards you let the heat penalties of overdrawing energy too fast sort the rest out.

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Regardless, I'm not exactly thrilled with the new/odd direction of this PTS. While some things (like the IS PPC's) seem like solid compromises between the pendulum swinging too far between PTS 1 and PTS 2, the rest of PTS 3 makes little sense to me in the grand scheme of balance. I'll patch and prep, but I think I'll let the more avid testers sort some thoughts before I dive into testing . . . see if it's even worth it for this round. Frankly, overall I'm disappointed from these impressions.

[Wrathful Scythe]

Oh boy, those c-erppc changes are gonna get scrapped in the next patch. As much as I love 15 dmg ERPPCs, they are just to strong.

I will test them throughoutly on the pts, if I find any matches.