241 replies to this topic

[Sergei Pavlov]

1453 R, on 01 September 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

Because firing energy weapons should be allowed. All you 30-cap folks consistently, continually, constantly forget that in your oh-so-precious tabletop game, heat sinks could absorb heat FROM THE FUTURE and nullify it before it ever touched your bar. Something that makes no sense and doesn't work in a real-time game.

PGI is trying to achieve these goals:

1) Reduce TTK.

2) Favour mixed loadouts.

Fixed heat cap achieves those goals. Even if you ignore that the idea originates in BT, it works. And I was wrong, since BT's HS also increased heat cap, but the effect was much reduced over MWO's current implementation of DHS.

Those that insist on fixed heat cap just want a system that's intuitive, easy to understand and apply in the battlefield. Heat generation should be the only number we need to remember.

Why do we need two numbers for one game mechanic?

Edited by Sergei Pavlov, 02 September 2016 - 01:49 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sergei Pavlov, on 02 September 2016 - 01:48 AM, said:

PGI is trying to achieve these goals:

1) Reduce TTK.

2) Favour mixed loadouts.

Fixed heat cap achieves those goals. Even if you ignore that the idea originates in BT, it works. And I was wrong, since BT's HS also increased heat cap, but the effect was much reduced over MWO's current implementation of DHS.

Those that insist on fixed heat cap just want a system that's intuitive, easy to understand and apply in the battlefield. Heat generation should be the only number we need to remember.

Why do we need two numbers for one game mechanic?

fixing heat cap could be a start, it's not the end all be all

[iLLcapitan]

Another trainwreck in the making

[BLOOD WOLF]

iLLcapitan, on 02 September 2016 - 01:58 AM, said:

Another trainwreck in the making

not really, I am in the PTS. It still feels pretty nice. Could be a bit worried about those ppcs, but dual firing them or firing them with other weapons systems in quick succession is not good.

One thing the PTS does achieve is the sparse rate of fire among the mechs.

What they need to do however is making overheating something that you really don't wan't to do. Right now, there is next to no penalty for over-heating.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 02 September 2016 - 02:04 AM.

[Exard3k]

Sergei Pavlov, on 02 September 2016 - 01:48 AM, said:

2) Favour mixed loadouts.

Source?

From PTS Changes compared to Live, lots of mixed loadout got a hard nerf. ED and GH are about Alpha, not about mixed- or mono builds.

Edited by Exard3k, 02 September 2016 - 02:18 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Exard3k, on 02 September 2016 - 02:17 AM, said:

Source?

From PTS Changes compared to Live, lots of mixed loadout got a hard nerf. ED and GH are about Alpha, not about mixed- or mono builds.

Actually they can be, at the same time it's not. Its really about how much you fire, how fast you fire. Mixed load outs just gives you more flexibility with different energy and heat rates.

[kapusta11]

Haha, you did it! 15 damage cERPPC. And this guy is in charge of balancing. Unbelivable.

[BLOOD WOLF]

kapusta11, on 02 September 2016 - 02:21 AM, said:

Haha, you did it! 15 damage cERPPC. And this guy is in charge of balancing. Unbelivable.

In the pts you can not fire dual 15 ppc's with much else. They also take too long to recharge to be viable by themselves.

I think you meant to add that, I helped you out a bit.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 02 September 2016 - 02:25 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Interesting.. these values, with a few exceptions look to be a huge improvement over the previous ones.

Issues:

8 second jam is a bit insane for UAC2s especially and UAC5s, imo.

Clan UACs are SUPPOSED to be a complete upgrade over standard clan ACs, because there is NO SUCH THING AS STANDARD CLAN ACS! If you cant figure out ammo switching, just remove the stupid things.

still doesn't address the fact that ED encourages boating of one weapon system (well, it doesn't encourage mixed builds, unlike GH)

IS-ERPPCs are horrendously underpowered now, compared to the C-ERPPC. People are gonna rage about that. Suggest decreasing IS-ERPPC heat to 13

[BLOOD WOLF]

"ED encourages boating of one weapon"

please explain which weapons and why boating them is preferable under ED.

[kapusta11]

BLOOD WOLF, on 02 September 2016 - 02:22 AM, said:

In the pts you can not fire dual 15 ppc's with much else. They also take too long to recharge to be viable by themselves.

I think you meant to add that, I helped you out a bit.

Why would you fire it with anything else, silly? 2 cERPPC now do the same damage as 2 Gauss rifles, with lower cooldown, and weight 20-22 tons (PPCs themselves + 8-10 DHS) instead of 36-37 (Gauss rifles + 6-7t ammo). The do only 3pts less damage than 3 cLPLs, which weight 26-28 tons (Lasers themselves + 8-10 DHS) but said damage is front loaded. In order to do the same 30 damage with IS ERPPCs you need 3 of them, thats 21 tons spent on weapons and 45 heat you need to deal with compared to 12 tons and 30 heat of cERPPCs.

He helped me, lol. Help yourself, buddy, cause you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Edited by kapusta11, 02 September 2016 - 02:42 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

kapusta11, on 02 September 2016 - 02:38 AM, said:

Why would you fire it with anything else, silly? 2 cERPPC now do the same damage as 2 Gauss rifles, with less coldown, and weight 20-22 tons (PPCs themselves + 8-10 DHS) instead of 36-37 (Gauss rifles + 6-7t ammo). The do only 3pts less damage than 3 cLPLs, which weight 26-28 tons (Lasers themselves + 8-10 DHS) but said damage is front loaded. In order to do the same 30 damage with IS ERPPCs you need 3 of them, thats 21 tons spent on weapons and 45 heat you need to deal with compared to 12 tons and 30 heat of cERPPCs.

He helped me, lol. Help yourself, buddy, cause you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

so where is your evidence?

How does this work in a live environment. Changes don't get made because of your word wall, they get made by looking at the PTS. Looks like's you're the one who doesn't know what he is talking about, and the reason to that is probably because you are not actual testing your speculations. You are just asserting them.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 02 September 2016 - 02:49 AM.

[Exard3k]

kapusta11, on 02 September 2016 - 02:21 AM, said:

Haha, you did it! 15 damage cERPPC. And this guy is in charge of balancing. Unbelivable.

PTS = Public Test Server. This is not a change for the live server.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Exard3k, on 02 September 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

PTS = Public Test Server. This is not a change for the live server.

He probably doesn't even have the PTS installed, nor is he actually playing around with different weapons,builds, rate of fire. He's just asserting. He then thinks people will take him seriously without giving evidence.

Because of the cooldown, you would probably be doing less damage overall if you only brought dual, PPC,or guass.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 02 September 2016 - 02:53 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

BLOOD WOLF, on 02 September 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

"ED encourages boating of one weapon"

please explain which weapons and why boating them is preferable under ED.

Compared to ghost heat - in order to get around the (huge) exponential heat gain from alpha firing multiple GH-linked weapons, you mix synergistic weapons with similar firing profile (like 2xAC5 + 2xPPC, for example) so that you can maintain a higher alpha without the crazytown heat. With ED, this 'loophole' is closed, so, given that different weapons have different firing profiles and therefore require different aim points and mech position, the easiest (and therefore, for everyone regardless of skill, the most effective) thing to do is to boat as many of whatever type of weapon you desire, then split into firegroups that work with the 30 ED limit.

TL:DR - Boating is easiest, therefore best. GH provides an incentive not to boat. ED does not.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 September 2016 - 02:52 AM, said:

Compared to ghost heat - in order to get around the (huge) exponential heat gain from alpha firing multiple GH-linked weapons, you mix synergistic weapons with similar firing profile (like 2xAC5 + 2xPPC, for example) so that you can maintain a higher alpha without the crazytown heat. With ED, this 'loophole' is closed, so, given that different weapons have different firing profiles and therefore require different aim points and mech position, the easiest (and therefore, for everyone regardless of skill, the most effective) thing to do is to boat as many of whatever type of weapon you desire, then split into firegroups that work with the 30 ED limit.

TL:DR - Boating is easiest, therefore best. GH provides an incentive not to boat. ED does not.

funny, Boating seems to be the norm under GH, do you play the game?

I just threw that buld together on the PTS. the rate of fire is horrendously low.

If i was at long range with the PPC's, as they are not they fire to slow

I can only fire alpha's but I get 3 in before overheat, but if i am at longer ranger I could cool down but the rate of fire again, is slowed

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 02 September 2016 - 02:59 AM.

[Chados]

I'm on board with the negative reaction to the uAC jam time and the IS LL duration nerf.

First, a five second jam clearance and a 17% jam chance is already enough to get you killed if you are packing less than four uACs. It essentially ends uAC 10 carriage for anything other than a Kodiak 3. At 17% you're going to jam for sure every fourth shot and I still see uAC jams on the FIRST shot, despite the claims otherwise. I'd recommend strongly that if you're increasing jam chance that the time to clear not be released on this PTS.

And the LL nerf makes no sense at all. It essentially relegates LLs to the dustbin. FupDup's damage over time analysis is spot on.

[kapusta11]

BLOOD WOLF, on 02 September 2016 - 02:44 AM, said:

so where is your evidence?

How does this work in a live environment. Changes don't get made because of your word wall, they get made by looking at the PTS. Looks like's you're the one who doesn't know what he is talking about, and the reason to that is probably because you are not actual testing your speculations. You are just asserting them.

BLOOD WOLF, on 02 September 2016 - 02:51 AM, said:

He probably doesn't even have the PTS installed, nor is he actually playing around with different weapons,builds, rate of fire. He's just asserting. He then thinks people will take him seriously without giving evidence.

Because of the cooldown, you would probably be doing less damage overall if you only brought dual, PPC,or guass.

You're really not operational, are you? I'm done with you, do not respond.

[BLOOD WOLF]

kapusta11, on 02 September 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

You're really not operational, are you? I'm done with you, do not respond.

lol, can't beat with an argument, just start insulting.

just provide evidence, and then i will consider what youa re saying. Play the PTS, then provide feedback in the correct channels. Other players will either relate or rebuke. Don't get salty because you are speculating in the general threads

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 02 September 2016 - 03:01 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

This issue is still the logic of approach:

We have a lot of cross-balancing to be aware of and just changing damage-values does not help balance, if you don't re-evaluate the stuff connected to it. A Medium-laser right now comes rather close to the range of a LPL. Put two of them together and you have more damage for a little less range for only two tons instead of 7.

I'm still in favor for the "tick" based ED - projectile for projectile, laser-tick for laser-tick. This way, you can find a VERY good balance between regen-values and DPS for weapon types and still limit the alpha values for single-shot weapons at the same time. You can also play with the duration to adjust certain weapon combinations that may seem a little too powerful to stretch them a little and don't have to touch damage values at all.

It would be easier in the long run, its more intuitive and you still leave the freedom to the player to build a mech how he wants to build it.

We still have the issue with the assaults, that they carry so many weapons (what else to do with the tonnage? See Highlander IIC) that they easily break the ED. So for the second part of the ED-system, we need to adjust the regen/pool values towards tonnage, so that assaults still feel like assaults.