46 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

so we all know that Clan ERPPCs are 15Damage for 15Heat every 6Seconds,
so i wanted to do some tests see how many you could fire with out over heating,
as well as see how they work with Gauss and if the Penalty is really worth it,

ED PTS3 PPC Stats
(as of now these are the Current PTS PPC Stats)
Weapon,........Damage,..Heat,...Cool-down,..Range,...
PPC(IS),............10..........10............5...........90-540....
ER-PPC(IS),......10.........13.5..........5.............810.......
C-ER-PPC,........15..........15..........6.8............810.......


Question 1)
Can you Fire 4 ERPPCs without shutting down?
-
(Tests with DWF+31DHS)
(60Damage(30over ED) @ 90Heat(60 +30Penalty Heat)
the moment i clicked the Trigger i was shut down for 4seconds,
so No you cant fire 4ERPPCs without shutting down,
also turning back on your at 93% heat,


Question 2)
whats the heat on Firing 3 ERPPCs?
-
(Tests with DWF+31DHS)
(45Damage(15over ED) @ 60Heat(45 +15Penalty Heat)
so firing 3 ERPPCs will get you to about 76% heat,
Firing a 4th a second later will push you too 94% heat,


Question 3)
How does Duel Gauss+ERPPC work?
(Tests with DWF 2Gauss+2CERPPC)
(60Damage(30over ED) @ 68Heat(32 +36Penalty Heat)
the moment i clicked the Trigger i was shut down for 3seconds,
so No you cant duel Gauss+ERPPC without shutting down,
also turning back on your at 90% heat,

More Tests Questions and Answers coming soon!!!


Edit-

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

Do you think that dual cERPPC jumpsnipers like the shadowcat, nova or hunchback IIC wll be too strong or will the heat limit them enough to keep them in check. Also you think ED for cERPPC should increased to 16 or even 17 because of their weight and slot efficiency compared to triple is PPC?

it seems like the 6.8 balances the C-ER-PPCs extra damage,
it makes shots it so when you fire you have to really focus, a Hit hurts, but a Miss hurts more,
also brawling with PPCs is now very hard as your almost out of action for 7seconds now,

Monkey Lover, on 02 September 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

kdk3, dual gauss, fallowed up by 3x c ppc , fallowed up by daul gauss again

what i see is fire(wait 6.7sec)8Heat), fire(wait 6.8)60Heat), fire(wait 6.7sec)8Heat),
ive tried this and it gets hot very very quickly, & 2Gauss+3ERPPCs is 30Tons,
(not counting ammo or DHS)



Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Title Updated to show (ED PTS3 Old)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 12 September 2016 - 03:22 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

Do you think that dual cERPPC jumpsnipers like the shadowcat, nova or hunchback IIC wll be too strong or will the heat limit them enough to keep them in check. Also you think ED for cERPPC should increased to 16 or even 17 because of their weight and slot efficiency compared to triple is PPC?

Also would be nice to see how many sustained shots various mechs can do not triggering ED penalty fired in pairs chainfire etc until shotdown

Thanks for your work o>.

[Gentleman Reaper]

I feel a draw increase would make sense, at least a moderate heat penalty for dual firing.

[Monkey Lover]

kdk3, dual gauss, fallowed up by 3x c ppc , fallowed up by daul gauss again



At least if they go with this test build i can stop wasting my time twisting and spreading damage. lol

Edited by Monkey Lover, 02 September 2016 - 07:21 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

It would be lovely if mechs like the Warhawk could actually use their stock loadouts without having a version of GH pop in to say that no, your 60 damage is the wrong kind of damage so you're not allowed to use it all.

This game gets more and more distant from source all the time, and folks wonder why balance gets so screwed up.

[Marmon Rzohr]

In short, the CERPPC change is terrible.

After the new change it's just got too much damage for the tonnage. IMO this will just lead to ungodly levels of poke damage from Clan mechs which will not be very enjoyable.

Another thing that I find wrong with this change is the cooldown... weapons with 6 second cooldowns are generally not fun to use. You spend so much time doing nothing.

It is my strong opinion that if there is such a concern over the CERPPC, the splash damage should just be removed and the damage set to 10 and that's it. Or just lower the splash damage. Or give an extra point of heat to compensate for the splash damage. Everything doesn't revolve around Energy Draw, higher heat is still a handicap even though there is no difference in the amount of energy in the new system.

This way there will be very few reasons to take the C-Gauss Rifle, unless you have tonnage but no room for heatsniks, because they do the same damage, the CERPPC has longer range, fires faster, consumes no ammo, doesn't explode, uses only 2 slots and weighs half as much. Sure heat is a factor, but given how massive the other advantages are, I truly think this will be a problem.

[davoodoo]

ScarecrowES, on 02 September 2016 - 10:43 PM, said:

It would be lovely if mechs like the Warhawk could actually use their stock loadouts without having a version of GH pop in to say that no, your 60 damage is the wrong kind of damage so you're not allowed to use it all.

This game gets more and more distant from source all the time, and folks wonder why balance gets so screwed up.

They already broke stock nova, direwhale, hbk 2c, hbk4p, kgc and quite a few more.

Time to break warhawk, we cant have battletech designs in battletech game.

Marmon Rzohr, on 03 September 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

After the new change it's just got too much damage for the tonnage.

15 dmg for 6 tons+ all dhs you can fit.

But hell for 6 tons you can put 12 ersl, which will result in 60 dmg 1/4th the range and half the cooldown and 36 heat.
or 48dmg worth of srm6.
or 30 dmg worth of lrm5
or hell 11 dmg worth of lpl at lower cooldown and heat.

Heavy weapons are really dmg/ton inefficient and every ton you save on energy weapon will be spent on dhs...
Even with tt overpowered dhs, you would need 8 dhs to cool down 1 erppc, bringing it to 14 tons, in mwo its even more.

Edited by davoodoo, 03 September 2016 - 07:51 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

Do you think that dual cERPPC jumpsnipers like the shadowcat, nova or hunchback IIC wll be too strong or will the heat limit them enough to keep them in check. Also you think ED for cERPPC should increased to 16 or even 17 because of their weight and slot efficiency compared to triple is PPC?

Also would be nice to see how many sustained shots various mechs can do not triggering ED penalty fired in pairs chainfire etc until shotdown

Thanks for your work o>.

My two cents? The damage isn't the problem. The cooldown is. Bump that to a 6.5 seconds cooldown and it might be reigned in enough, as even at 6 it becomes a bit clumsy. However, right now we have a weapon with 50% more firepower, but only about a 20% longer cooldown over the IS versions. That said, it also comes with 50% more heat, so a straight 50% longer cooldown would be overkill.

I like that the CERPPC hits like it should, though. It gives an option to tonnage or hardpoint limited clan mechs, like the IFR, SMN, MLX, ADR, or SHC, so that they can actually be more than just mildly annoying. So that they can actually have some threat potential.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 03 September 2016 - 08:37 AM.

[Zionkan]

Pariah Devalis, on 03 September 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

My two cents? The damage isn't the problem. The cooldown is. Bump that to a 6.5 seconds cooldown and it might be reigned in enough, as even at 6 it becomes a bit clumsy. However, right now we have a weapon with 50% more firepower, but only about a 20% longer cooldown over the IS versions. That said, it also comes with 50% more heat, so a straight 50% longer cooldown would be overkill.

I like that the CERPPC hits like it should, though. It gives an option to tonnage or hardpoint limited clan mechs, like the IFR, SMN, MLX, ADR, or SHC, so that they can actually be more than just mildly annoying. So that they can actually have some threat potential.

U know actually it is 6.8 sec on testserver?

[Andi Nagasia]

Marmon Rzohr, on 03 September 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

In short, the CERPPC change is terrible.

After the new change it's just got too much damage for the tonnage. IMO this will just lead to ungodly levels of poke damage from Clan mechs which will not be very enjoyable.

Another thing that I find wrong with this change is the cooldown... weapons with 6 second cooldowns are generally not fun to use. You spend so much time doing nothing.

It is my strong opinion that if there is such a concern over the CERPPC, the splash damage should just be removed and the damage set to 10 and that's it. Or just lower the splash damage. Or give an extra point of heat to compensate for the splash damage. Everything doesn't revolve around Energy Draw, higher heat is still a handicap even though there is no difference in the amount of energy in the new system.

This way there will be very few reasons to take the C-Gauss Rifle, unless you have tonnage but no room for heatsniks, because they do the same damage, the CERPPC has longer range, fires faster, consumes no ammo, doesn't explode, uses only 2 slots and weighs half as much. Sure heat is a factor, but given how massive the other advantages are, I truly think this will be a problem.

from my tests and playing with full teams testing it C-ER-PPC mechs are now more of a Support type,
much like Gauss the Cooldown means they are useless in a brawl and need support or they will be focused down,
also high alpha damage everyone is worried about is a myth, just like the DireStar, its effective,... Once, then its dead,

[Pariah Devalis]

Zionkan, on 03 September 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

U know actually it is 6.8 sec on testserver?

Thought they made it 6 seconds. Well then, why the hell are IS pilots complaining about the C-ERPPC again? Is it because Clans cannot have nice things? 50% more damage for 50% more heat and 40% longer cooldown. That seems pretty well balanced to me.

Andi Nagasia, on 03 September 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

from my tests and playing with full teams testing it C-ER-PPC mechs are now more of a Support type,
much like Gauss the Cooldown means they are useless in a brawl and need support or they will be focused down,
also high alpha damage everyone is worried about is a myth, just like the DireStar, its effective,... Once, then its dead,

Exactly this. The weapon hits like a truck, but has such a long cooldown that if you miss, you're at a long period of disadvantage. Cannot shoot back. It makes it pretty uncomfortable to brawl with, however it makes it a fantastic mid to long range weapon. Being slower than a Gauss also makes it harder to use at its maximum range, so it's a little more skill intensive than the new and reverted point and click gauss rifle.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 September 2016 - 06:26 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Pariah Devalis, on 04 September 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

Thought they made it 6 seconds. Well then, why the hell are IS pilots complaining about the C-ERPPC again? Is it because Clans cannot have nice things? 50% more damage for 50% more heat and 40% longer cooldown. That seems pretty well balanced to me.

I'm an IS player and I've been asking for a 15 damage C-ERPPC for a while to make it's role a bit different than IS PPCs. Because of the long cooldown, it encourages the ERPPC to be used in mixed builds (as it normally is in lore), except for fast mechs like the Adder that can fire and hide. I think it feels pretty damn good right now, although maybe punish 2 ERPPC alphas a bit, 18 draw would mean 6 extra heat if dual fired, which isn't a harsh punishment.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Gentleman Reaper, on 04 September 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

I'm an IS player and I've been asking for a 15 damage C-ERPPC for a while to make it's role a bit different than IS PPCs. Because of the long cooldown, it encourages the ERPPC to be used in mixed builds (as it normally is in lore), except for fast mechs like the Adder that can fire and hide. I think it feels pretty damn good right now, although maybe punish 2 ERPPC alphas a bit, 18 draw would mean 6 extra heat if dual fired, which isn't a harsh punishment.

Ontop of the big cooldown and heat boost? I think that's too much.

Also sorry about the other day, internet dropped while we were testing, still waiting for my ISP to send a technician.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 04 September 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

Ontop of the big cooldown and heat boost? I think that's too much.

Also sorry about the other day, internet dropped while we were testing, still waiting for my ISP to send a technician.

No problem, I'd love to test with you guys again, although I work a short shift today, so I'll be on later

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 02 September 2016 - 10:43 PM, said:

It would be lovely if mechs like the Warhawk could actually use their stock loadouts without having a version of GH pop in to say that no, your 60 damage is the wrong kind of damage so you're not allowed to use it all.

I don't know where people get the idea that some of these stock loadouts are actually heat neutral. Mechs like the Warhawk Prime, Nova Prime, Supernova, etc, were never able to fire all of their main weapons without severely overheating.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 September 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 September 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

I don't know where people get the idea that some of these stock loadouts are actually heat neutral. Mechs like the Warhawk Prime, Nova Prime, Supernova, etc, were never able to fire all of their main weapons without severely overheating.

Each of those you mentioned havent got heat neutral alpha though they still could fire it, but half of their weaponry was heat neutral,
6 mlas for for nova, tt says heat neutral, ed says nope, ghost heat for you
2 erppc for warhawk, tt says heat neutral, currently possible in ed though still ridiculously hot
4 erll for nova, its not in mwo but forget ed would allow you to do so...

I cant remember there being single stock mech which couldnt fire alpha without shutting down
and surely there wasnt any boat variant that couldnt fire alpha, cause that would be ******** design... what would be the point of putting multiple of same weapons if you cant fire them all at once even once.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 September 2016 - 10:07 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 September 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

I don't know where people get the idea that some of these stock loadouts are actually heat neutral. Mechs like the Warhawk Prime, Nova Prime, Supernova, etc, were never able to fire all of their main weapons without severely overheating.

I'd have to look, but I think my Warhawk Prime has somewhere in the neighborhood of 28 DHS. So that's a heat cap of 56, with an alpha heat of 60, for a heat penalty of 4. If I fired that alpha and took the penalty on that round, I could fire 3 PPCs on the next round and dissipate that heat penalty, and then repeat. Assuming 24 DHS at the low end, that's 48 heat cap, for a 12pt penalty. Firing 2 PPCs in the next round would dissipate the penalty.

It's not heat neutral, but it's extremely controllable. And PPCs in TT were something to be feared. By extension, the Warhawk was a mech to be feared.

And thanks to terribads in MWO wanting to be able to stand in the open like a moron with full immunity, PPCs aren't allowed to be something to fear.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 04 September 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

I cant remember there being single stock mech which couldnt fire alpha without shutting down

There are plenty, you just never looked hard. For example 6-8 Nova (some can only alpha without jumping) canon variants can alpha strike safely, though some of them are underwhelming.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 04 September 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'd have to look, but I think my Warhawk Prime has somewhere in the neighborhood of 28 DHS.

The stock Warhawk Prime has 20 DHS, it can't even fire 3 ERPPCs standing still without getting a penalty. What your loadout is in MWO doesn't matter because MWO abhors heat neutral builds, because otherwise it would be energy boats for days. Don't get me wrong, I dislike ghost heat, but some of you seem to want energy weapons to be too powerful whether you realize it or not.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 September 2016 - 11:07 AM.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 September 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

The stock Warhawk Prime has 20 DHS, it can't even fire 3 ERPPCs standing still without getting a penalty. What your loadout is in MWO doesn't matter because MWO abhors heat neutral builds, because otherwise it would be energy boats for days. Don't get me wrong, I dislike ghost heat, but some of you seem to want energy weapons to be too powerful whether you realize it or not.

You mean like ed erppc boats or gh laservomit...

and its not like tt didnt have something to deter energy boating
lets compare gauss at 12 tons, 2 tons of ammo, 1 dhs, 15 tons total and 6+2+2=10 slots total
1 erppc is 6 tons+8tons of dhs to make it heat neutral, so 14 tons total and 2+8x2=18 slots total
both at 15 dmg...
You will only go as far as slots allow you to which isnt much.

ofc lighter mechs would prefer energy over ballistics(like they doesnt already) because of 10 dhs and lightweight energy weapons.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 September 2016 - 12:00 PM.