49 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

Davers, on 03 September 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

Honestly this is probably the most thorough "test" it has ever gotten from the players.

I don't know why BW feels the need to add commentary to all your posts. It's kind of creepy, and might qualify as harassment.

please report me

The regulars who trolled most of my threads/post, say's that my post here are harassment. LOL

no really report me.

maybe I should hit that report button myself more often. remember my "it's all energy thread", tell me the usuals didn't troll me then

http://mwomercs.com/...68#entry5366268(my thread first few post in)

First post Buddah makes is what?, you tell me; Really please report me

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 03 September 2016 - 08:53 AM.

[Davers]

BLOOD WOLF, on 03 September 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

please report me

Why? Are you planning on shadowing me and replying to all my posts too?

Dammit Buddah, did you just "It Follows" me?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Davers, on 03 September 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

Why? Are you planning on shadowing me and replying to all my posts too?

Dammit Buddah, did you just "It Follows" me?

read my above post.

http://mwomercs.com/...17#entry5356117

Another thread I made, and look at Festus's first post. I could have made a few reports myself.

So please report me

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 03 September 2016 - 08:56 AM.

[Davers]

BLOOD WOLF, on 03 September 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

read my above post.

http://mwomercs.com/...17#entry5356117

Another thread I made, and look at Festus's first post. I could have made a few reports myself.

So please report me

Why do you keep asking me to report you? Is this some kind of cyber fetish?

[Kanil]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 03 September 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Given its what made them take the "Mech Simulator" tag off the web site, they thought it was pretty bad too

Also; if youd played the previous MW titles multiplayer, youd know WHY there was such a negative reaction to it

I'm not talking about a negative reaction to it prior, that is understandable. I'm talking about how people still whine about it on occasion, even though it's an utterly irrelevant thing that in no way meaningfully changed the game.

[Sjorpha]

BLOOD WOLF, on 03 September 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

People like me get lambasted when I point this out. While It was probably a waste of resources, The "community goodwill is really giving some people here too much credit. I would hold that somebody who is reasonable will look at that and say, Yea what a waste and earned a bit of ire, but that needs to be contrasted with other things they have done.

I never understood the common phenomena of somebody picking and choosing the bits of information they will accept as to affect their "good will". What effects it? how is it determined? and if their are things that lower it, are their not things that can raise it. That is a honest question to ask.

To ask for everything else to be brought up in contrast to each specific issue is an impossible demand, and therefore an irrational and dishonest way to dismiss concerns.

You must be able to bring up a specific thing you feel or think something about and focus on that, so if the issue is 3PV and the reactions surrounding that, then that is the subject at that moment and in makes perfect sense to leave other things out of the discussion.

The fact is that 3PV was a broken mechanic in previous titles when used in MP, and there was major concern and outrage about it being announced fro MWO for good reasons. That specific move was one of the many that worsened PGIs customer relations.

Are there things that have been well recieved and has improved customer relations? Yes of course, many things, and it makes perfect sense to talk about those things separately as well. You could also have a discussion about the totality of customer relations and try to analyze how good they are in general, and that again would be a separate subject to focus on.

What if I made a reply to every single positive post demanding that they bring up all the bad things to provide a "contrast", would that be reasonable? No, it would be trolling, and that is the exact equivalent of what you are demanding here.

Edited by Sjorpha, 03 September 2016 - 10:51 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sjorpha, on 03 September 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

To ask for everything else to be brought up in contrast to each specific issue is an impossible demand, and therefore an irrational and dishonest way to dismiss concerns.

It's actually not, and I don't need to play you're game of dishonesty and dismissive. The Daver's sqaud got's that covered. If you are going to nit-pick things that had a negative impact on the community, you have to be intellectually honest and apply the same standard that would have attributed positive impact.

Before you call someone irrational, dismissive, and dishonest, you might wan't to clean up your post a bit, and also understand what I was trying to say. If you only think one-dimensional then I will use simpler sentences. You obviously did not bother to critical read my post.

What you stated is illogical. When discussing the game and it's impact on the community, you have to talk about all respects in which the topic lay. You are just picking and choosing the bits of information you wan't to use.

Aso known as the fancy Texas sharpshooter fallacy, and the composition fallacy.. which one cherry picks data or information to form a conclusion, or finding patterns theretofore negating the need to look at something as a whole. the composition fallacy is taking something like 3pv and applying its negative affects to every other decision made, which can not be the case. Also Which would depend on which you are talking about. If we are talking about how bad 3rd person is then you are correct, if we are talking about decisions overall them that requires more evidence to make a case.

So it's sure is impossible If you are not gonna bother to create a comprehensive list. Try not to be fallacious next time.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 03 September 2016 - 11:14 AM.

[Coolant]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 03 September 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

I cant believe the huge fuss that PGI made to shoehorn this into this game for the supposed reasoning of that it helps new players when in reality, its a MASSIVE handicap.

Also, given all the glitches and issues, it looks like they put it in all that time ago and then never worked on it again

Exactly, that's why there should've been a full-featured 3rd Person from the start

[Sjorpha]

BLOOD WOLF, on 03 September 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

It's actually not, and I don't need to play you're game of dishonesty and dismissive. The Daver's sqaud got's that covered. If you are going to nit-pick things that had a negative impact on the community, you have to be intellectually honest and apply the same standard that would have attributed positive impact.

Before you call someone irrational, dismissive, and dishonest, you might wan't to clean up your post a bit, and also understand what I was trying to say. If you only think one-dimensional then I will use simpler sentences. You obviously did not bother to critical read my post.

What you stated is illogical. When discussing the game and it's impact on the community, you have to talk about all respects in which the topic lay. You are just picking and choosing the bits of information you wan't to use.

Aso known as the fancy Texas sharpshooter fallacy, and the composition fallacy.. which one cherry picks data or information to form a conclusion, or finding patterns theretofore negating the need to look at something as a whole. the composition fallacy is taking something like 3pv and applying its negative affects to every other decision made, which can not be the case. Which would depend on which you are talking about. If we are talking about how bad 3rd person is then you are correct, if we are talking about decisions overall them that requires more evidence to make a case.

So it's sure is impossible If you are not gonna bother to create a comprehensive list. Try not to be fallacious next time.

But the topic isn't the general relation to the community, it is 3PV and it's effects on that relation specifically.

I only need to know that effect to state that effect. I'm not making any claims about the complete picture of PGI's customer relations, I'm only claiming that the 3PV debacle made them worse, and it absolutely did.

What you are doing is trying to change the subject to be more general than it is, so that you can use that more general subject to accuse the people discussing the specific issue at hand of cherry picking. That's moving the goal posts.

It isn't cherry picking to limit yourself to the topic at hand, the title of this thread is "3PV" and the topic is the impact of that.

I didn't mean to call you dishonest as a person, I'm just saying that answering specific concerns with demands of addressing other things as well is a dishonest way of dismissing/belittling those concerns.

As an example, It's a bit like when Reza Aslan tells people concerned with islamist terrorism that they lack a nuanced understanding of Islam, as if that made concerns about islamist terror less valid when in fact it is entirely valid as a separate concern from any understanding of Islam at large, nuanced or not.

Since there is always an ever increasing amount of possible context to demand, you can use this "incomplete picture" type rhetoric to derail any discussion on any topic forever. It's a trap.

Edited by Sjorpha, 03 September 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[Rioclaw]

Coolant, on 03 September 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

Exactly, that's why there should've been a full-featured 3rd Person from the start

If you have ever played ARMA and attempted to play it as a sim game in first person view, you would understand that once a full featured 3PV is put in, it is vastly superior situational awareness and leaves everyone in the 1PV in the dust overall. ARMA is a series that suffers as a sim of sorts where the gameplay surrounds the abuse of the third person mechanic, there is no way to stop this. War Thunder attempted to stop the third person abuse in tanks for hill peeking, but what it really did is leave a mechanic where often things you should be able to see you cant due to the game perceiving obstructions that are not there. Elite Dangerous knew about this risk and they downright have shut down any idea of it. I believe it was a partial waste of time to include it at all, but then again I do like seeing my nice mech skins from time to time :3

Edited by Rioclaw, 03 September 2016 - 11:43 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sjorpha, on 03 September 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

But the topic isn't the general relation to the community, it is 3PV and it's effects on that relation specifically.

I only need to know that effect to state that effect. I'm not making any claims about the complete picture of PGI's customer relations, I'm only claiming that the 3PV debacle made them worse, and it absolutely did.

What you are doing is trying to change the subject to be more general than it is, so that you can use that more general subject to accuse the people discussing the specific issue at hand of cherry picking. That's moving the goal posts.

It isn't cherry picking to limit yourself to the topic at hand, the title of this thread is "3PV" and the topic is the impact of that.

I didn't mean to call you dishonest as a person, I'm just saying that answering specific concerns with demands of addressing other things as well is a dishonest way of dismissing/belittling those concerns.

As an example, It's a bit like when Reza Aslan tells people concerned with islamist terrorism that they lack a nuanced understanding of Islam, as if that made concerns about islamist terror less valid when in fact it is entirely valid as a separate concern from any understanding of Islam at large, nuanced or not.

Since there is always an ever increasing amount of possible context to demand, you can use this "incomplete picture" type rhetoric to derail any discussion on any topic forever. It's a trap.

I am not trying to change the topic to be more general, I was just responding specifically to the things you have said. If you wan't I can pick specific things with what you said that I had contention with.

"Just a huge waste of development resources and community goodwill for absolutely zero gain."
I was just trying to understand what exactly does this mean. I think this is where the conflict occurred.

If you are measuring "goodwill", and they do small things like 3pv to take " it away, it stand's to reason that it can be increased, by factors that are in opposite to 3pv.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 03 September 2016 - 12:03 PM.

[Sjorpha]

BLOOD WOLF, on 03 September 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

"Just a huge waste of development resources and community goodwill for absolutely zero gain."
I was just trying to understand what exactly does this mean.

Loss of goodwill means PGI's implementation of 3PV in spite of previously stating they would not, and in spite of a major public protest, resulted in a huge loss of goodwill among thousands of players.

Zero gain means that their solution of nerfing 3VP into uselessness made it a feature with zero positive impact on the game.

There was negative impact, because for a long time 3PV was turned on by default for new players without any clear indication of how to switch to 1PV, causing a lot of unnecessary frustration for them, me for example.

The only in game impact left now is the annoyance of accidentally turning it on when using some other F key.

I have no idea why PGI feels the need to remind us of this non-feature, a bit like having an event based on the elite "pinpoint" skill.

"Hey remember this thing we put in the game against everybody's will and later toned down to do nothing? Yeah we just wanted to remind you it's still there!"

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sjorpha, on 03 September 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

Loss of goodwill means PGI's implementation of 3PV in spite of previously stating they would not, and in spite of a major public protest, resulted in a huge loss of goodwill among thousands of players.

Zero gain means that their solution of nerfing 3VP into uselessness made it a feature with zero positive impact on the game.

There was negative impact, because for a long time 3PV was turned on by default for new players without any clear indication of how to switch to 1PV, causing a lot of unnecessary frustration for them, me for example.

The only in game impact left now is the annoyance of accidentally turning it on when using some other F key.

I have no idea why PGI feels the need to remind us of this non-feature, a bit like having an event based on the elite "pinpoint" skill.

"Hey remember this thing we put in the game against everybody's will and later toned down to do nothing? Yeah we just wanted to remind you it's still there!"

having a bit of fun i guess? I probably won't be doing it. some of the challenges are a little out of the scope

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Davers, on 03 September 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

Honestly this is probably the most thorough "test" it has ever gotten from the players.

I don't know why BW feels the need to add commentary to all your posts. It's kind of creepy, and might qualify as harassment.

I gont give a ****, I cant read it, and choose not to when he quote me, but feel free to report it lol

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kanil, on 03 September 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

I'm not talking about a negative reaction to it prior, that is understandable. I'm talking about how people still whine about it on occasion, even though it's an utterly irrelevant thing that in no way meaningfully changed the game.

again... when the company that makes the game suddenly feels their product is no longer representative of a "simulator" so strongly that they feel the need to remove that from the web page of said product directly after adding one thing to the game, I call that a significant change. Maybe thats just me

[TLBFestus]

Buddah, you really shouldn't put people on ignore.

They can teach you a lot of good things. Mostly things to avoid, how not to say things, some valuable insight into the dunning-kruger effect, tons of info on pom-pom maintenance, how to charge forward regardless of mocking, real Thomas the Tank Engine stuff.

You are missing out.

[BLOOD WOLF]

TLBFestus, on 03 September 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

Buddah, you really shouldn't put people on ignore.

They can teach you a lot of good things. Mostly things to avoid, how not to say things, some valuable insight into the dunning-kruger effect, tons of info on pom-pom maintenance, how to charge forward regardless of mocking, real Thomas the Tank Engine stuff.

You are missing out.

nah I think it's better that way. I am having way to much fun quoting him and then him replying that he has me on ignore, all the while forgetting that the purpose of ignore is so that you don't have to respond even if they quote you.

[TLBFestus]

Buddah, it's also hilarious when they read something and think it's for them, not about them.

I forgot that one, but just remembered it.

[BLOOD WOLF]

TLBFestus, on 04 September 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

Buddah, it's also hilarious when they read something and think it's for them, not about them.

I forgot that one, but just remembered it.

I knew that the post was about me, not directed to me.

must be hilarious in the Land of F.A.I.L. Also trust me, I laugh so hard when a member of the fallacious 10 make a post. Reminds me a bit about what happens when someone lowers the bar on reason.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 04 September 2016 - 11:42 AM.

[TLBFestus]

Sure...you say that now, after the fact.

Comics Sans font, good choice.

Edited by TLBFestus, 04 September 2016 - 12:48 PM.