183 replies to this topic

[N0MAD]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

I think it's pretty likely that you misunderstood or he misspoke, because that's just silly. It's the highest level of reward for winning in scouting, it's supposed to be a strong advantage.

Have a link to where he explicitly says it affects both teams? Because I definitely didn't hear that.

you could be right, after re listening to it Derek does say it will be like global ECM, probably meaning affecting the enemy team where ever it is on map, not everyone on map,,, my bad, and thanks for making me listen more closely..

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

or he misspoke

To be fair thats 90% of what he says.

[Hotthedd]

ScarecrowES, on 08 September 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

Unlikely to work as long as the core gameplay remains the same. How often would you imagine creating a reward system that runs contrary to the core mechanics of a game actually sways player participation in a positive direction?

I disagree. I am absolutely certain that if people could make twice the C-bills and XP from completing the objectives than they could from simply killing every other 'mech, objective based gameplay would be the rule, not the exception.

But you convinced yourself long ago that re-spawns are the answer, so I know you will not see it any other way at this point.

[ScarecrowES]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 08 September 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

really makes you wonder WHY PGI are like this. Theyve NEVER given a **** about what the ppl who are actually doing the work and want **** fixed, and seem to cater to the Twitter crowd that might not even play

Admittedly, there is great difficulty in knowing which voices to listen to. We live in an age where any half-wit with a computer can go on a forum and voice an opinion, as invalid and poorly-considered as it may be. How does one tell the half-wits from those whose opinions should be coveted?

Well, certainly you can't tell by merely soliciting for voices... you'll get all of the spectrum. And you certainly can't tell by NOT soliciting for voices at all. In the end, you have to seek out the right voices. Separate the wheat from the chaff. That involves actually looking at where the voice is coming from. To do that, you actually have to ask questions... who are you? What do you want? That requires an active community management system that can connect and probe.

Once you find the right voices you need to put them together and let them hash out what your next course of action should be. Purposeful and pointed deliberate action. And you need to weight those voices against a vision and plan for the road ahead.

Otherwise... I guess you could just listen to whoever waves fancy videos in your face.

[Hotthedd]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

But what really gets my goat about Hotthead's argument is that it's a bad to make FP better because then people won't play QP anymore. That's the most backwards ignorant thing I've heard on these forums, and that's really a high bar.

"Oh, don't make that game mode better, or people will play it!"

God damn. How do you even respond to that?

I don't know how you would respond to that.
But that is not my argument.
FP should be the primary game mode.
Re-spawns on QP maps is not the solution.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

ScarecrowES, on 08 September 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

Well, certainly you can't tell by merely soliciting for voices... you'll get all of the spectrum. And you certainly can't tell by NOT soliciting for voices at all.

Otherwise... I guess you could just listen to whoever waves fancy videos in your face.

funnily we've seen examples of all of this happening in the past 4 years.

My advice would be in game polls instead of using the forums.

at least that way you know the people voting have at least PLAYED the game, unlike the forums, facebook or twitter

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 08 September 2016 - 05:41 PM.

[Hotthedd]

Mystere, on 08 September 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Considering QP was supposed to be only a temporary measure and not the game, I'm not shedding a tear for its demise ...

I'm not shedding a tear for QP being replaced by FP, I'm shedding a tear because single life matches are being replaced by re-spawns.

[ScarecrowES]

Hotthedd, on 08 September 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

I disagree. I am absolutely certain that if people could make twice the C-bills and XP from completing the objectives than they could from simply killing every other 'mech, objective based gameplay would be the rule, not the exception.

But you convinced yourself long ago that re-spawns are the answer, so I know you will not see it any other way at this point.

If you think I'm patently pro-respawn, you certainly haven't been listening. I'm pro "whatever actually works for the game PGI produced." The modes it produced are modes that require respawns. It's basic game design theory.

And in fact, quite a long time ago I actually did full write-ups on how Conquest could be adjusted to work SPECIFICALLY under the current no-respawn format. Using actual gameplay mechanics from games that have done this successfully and adapting them to MWO's gameplay systems as they already exist. I got shot down. People said they didn't want to have to spend the whole match focusing on objectives.

The reality many need to face is that, ultimately, many people simply do not WANT to play the objective, and as long as there are alternative paths to victory, people will choose alternate paths - no matter how much you may try to sugar-coat the path you would rather they choose.

[Johnny Z]

A question here. So is faction play going to be using the queue matchmaker or the lobbies to make matches in the next FP update? I still have no listened to the whole podcast. What can I say been listening to music and surfing.

Is there going to be a button to press to drop for faction play? Of course choosing a destination in a jumpship or something like that would be better, but for question sake will there be a button?

What would be best is if an Inner Sphere player could choose to go to the Clan front or the House Davion front and get put into a match quickly. Or something like that. Maybe options on the side for some other kind of play such as Solaris or DLC's.

I am going to add this video because this video describes it better.

This video was described on these forums first by the way.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 September 2016 - 05:59 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Johnny Z, on 08 September 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

A question here. So is faction play going to be using the queue matchmaker or the lobbies to make matches in the next FP update? I still have no listened to the whole podcast. What can I say been listening to music and surfing.

Is there going to be a button to press to drop for faction play? Of course choosing a destination in a jumpship or something like that would be better, but for question sake will there be a button?

I'm curious as well how it's all going to work. I probably won't have the opportunity to review the podcast in full until tomorrow.

My suggestion was to simply have 3 modes under FP... Invasion, Scouting, and Trials (which is what I called QP). Functionally, queuing for Trials worked no different than queuing for QP, except access was placed along the menus for FP. All that changed was the location of the play button. I did suggest the addition of a drop deck, but not as something to use in a match (respawns) but more as a means to store a standard set of mechs you might want to use for each class, making queuing for whatever classes were lowest at the time much easier.

And then I had suggested that players win points for their faction during the match for wins and good performance. Up to 2 points for a win and good performance, zero for a loss and bad performance, and one point for just a win or a loss with good performance. Points you win for your faction would be tabulated along with everyone else's, and the points for two factions that were at war would be measured against each other. The side with the most points won... whatever the points would be used for... planetary territories, match bonuses... whatever.

Very simple system.

Who knows if PGI came up with anything like that.

[BLOOD WOLF]

ScarecrowES, on 08 September 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

I'm curious as well how it's all going to work. I probably won't have the opportunity to review the podcast in full until tomorrow.

My suggestion was to simply have 3 modes under FP... Invasion, Scouting, and Trials (which is what I called QP). Functionally, queuing for Trials worked no different than queuing for QP, except access was placed along the menus for FP. All that changed was the location of the play button. I did suggest the addition of a drop deck, but not as something to use in a match (respawns) but more as a means to store a standard set of mechs you might want to use for each class, making queuing for whatever classes were lowest at the time much easier.

And then I had suggested that players win points for their faction during the match for wins and good performance. Up to 2 points for a win and good performance, zero for a loss and bad performance, and one point for just a win or a loss with good performance. Points you win for your faction would be tabulated along with everyone else's, and the points for two factions that were at war would be measured against each other. The side with the most points won... whatever the points would be used for... planetary territories, match bonuses... whatever.

Very simple system.

Who knows if PGI came up with anything like that.

Gotta say, I gave it a sniff, and like the trials idea. If they went with that, I can't wait to read the threads about it.

[Johnny Z]

ScarecrowES, on 08 September 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

I'm curious as well how it's all going to work. I probably won't have the opportunity to review the podcast in full until tomorrow.

My suggestion was to simply have 3 modes under FP... Invasion, Scouting, and Trials (which is what I called QP). Functionally, queuing for Trials worked no different than queuing for QP, except access was placed along the menus for FP. All that changed was the location of the play button. I did suggest the addition of a drop deck, but not as something to use in a match (respawns) but more as a means to store a standard set of mechs you might want to use for each class, making queuing for whatever classes were lowest at the time much easier.

And then I had suggested that players win points for their faction during the match for wins and good performance. Up to 2 points for a win and good performance, zero for a loss and bad performance, and one point for just a win or a loss with good performance. Points you win for your faction would be tabulated along with everyone else's, and the points for two factions that were at war would be measured against each other. The side with the most points won... whatever the points would be used for... planetary territories, match bonuses... whatever.

Very simple system.

Who knows if PGI came up with anything like that.

Faction play was working. But the wait times were killing it even if it was successful to a degree.

That video I added is exactly what would look good to a player in many ways. It really was described on these forums first in detail about being first person with a star map etc. Even using the wasd keys to look from one to the other, that kind of detail. Then walking out of the bridge to the dropship. In those words on this forum first.

Stepping onto the bridge of a jumpship and choosing to go to faction wars, or Solaris, or one of the installed DLC's. Basically.

Logistics could be added. Jumpship and dropship upgrades could be monetized and so on.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 September 2016 - 06:20 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Hotthedd, on 08 September 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

I don't know how you would respond to that.
But that is not my argument.
FP should be the primary game mode.
Re-spawns on QP maps is not the solution.

....Because if they have QP maps in faction play with respawns, that'll just destroy the quickplay queue and everything will be crap.

That's exactly the argument you're making; that nobody will play quick play because they're all over playing Faction Play, and solely because Faction Play has the QP maps and modes (though with drop decks). That's just dumb.

Quickplay matches will remain faster - both faster to complete and faster to get. The have a matchmaker. Sure, more will probably play FP as a result, but that's the goal.

Planetary invasion is already a respawn game; adding QP maps doesn't change that. It's still respawn, but now people playing FP can play it on all the maps instead of just a couple. This change is only adding to FP; it isn't hurting QP at all.

[Davers]

I imagine different slices of the pie would be different game modes. Probably random maps with time to change your deck.

Edited by Davers, 08 September 2016 - 06:16 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Hotthedd, on 08 September 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

I don't know how you would respond to that.
But that is not my argument.
FP should be the primary game mode.
Re-spawns on QP maps is not the solution.

Re-spawn on QP was not even part of Russ' presentation. That was brought up by Sean Lang (Phil) for some reason. Russ was resistant to it and said that was not what they were talking about. I do not pretend to know what Phil's agenda was for injecting it into the discussion but I do know that PGI and Dareon were not in favor of it.

IMHO, re-spawn will not be coming to Quick Play. I certainly would not waste any brain cells worrying about it.

[ScarecrowES]

BLOOD WOLF, on 08 September 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

Gotta say, I gave it a sniff, and like the trials idea. If they went with that, I can't wait to read the threads about it.

I called them Trials because, to me, the type of combat we see in QP seems more like the sort of limited, focused, purposeful engagement that happens in Clan Trials. You might have 24 specifically chosen competitors squaring off in a Trial to determine an outcome of much larger importance... the fate of a planet maybe. We can have mixed faction teams and mechs because all Houses/Clans are vying for the honor and success of their faction in that Trial.

It always made more sense to me... given that QP combat is more like playing a game than actual warfare, and that's more or less what Trials are.

Plus... calling them Trials gives them a sense of immersion and gives matches an implied importance to the greater conflict. It gave QP a reason to fall under the FP umbrella for more than just mechanical purposes.

[Johnny Z]

Davers, on 08 September 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

I imagine different slices of the pie would be different game modes. Probably random maps with time to change your deck.

This why first person mechaby needs to be added.

Go to bridge, choose "mode" either faction play or solaris or what ever.

Then walk/zone to dropship, fit out dropship for the mode that was chosen....

Fourth area is finances/guild/what ever.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 September 2016 - 06:27 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Johnny Z, on 08 September 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

Faction play was working. But the wait times were killing it even if it was successful to a degree.

That video I added is exactly what would look good to a player in many ways. It really was described on these forums first in detail about being first person with a star map etc. Even using the wasd keys to look from one to the other, that kind of detail. Then walking out of the bridge to the dropship. In those words on this forum first.

Stepping onto the bridge of a jumpship and choosing to go to faction wars, or Solaris, or one of the installed DLC's. Basically.

Logistics could be added. Jumpship and dropship upgrades could be monetized and so on.

It's more immersive... definitely something I suggested before... that every UI screen should look like various rooms inside a Jumpship (not unlike the hub in MW2: Mercs). Literally boarding your dropship after you select a queue. Something that makes it feel like you're a participant in a universe, rather than just hanging out in a lobby.

[Johnny Z]

ScarecrowES, on 08 September 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

It's more immersive... definitely something I suggested before... that every UI screen should look like various rooms inside a Jumpship (not unlike the hub in MW2: Mercs). Literally boarding your dropship after you select a queue. Something that makes it feel like you're a participant in a universe, rather than just hanging out in a lobby.

This is why this change they are making sounds good. If its a step to making it work quickly and well first, then building on that with logistics and other details, later, then great.

[Cy Mitchell]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

Planetary invasion is already a respawn game; adding QP maps doesn't change that. It's still respawn, but now people playing FP can play it on all the maps instead of just a couple. This change is only adding to FP; it isn't hurting QP at all.

And instead of being locked into one boring, repetitive, bottlenecked, Faction Play game mode, you will instead play a series of game modes on a variety of maps that will more closely follow the various steps necessary to capture a planet. Scout, invade, deny enemy access to resources, capture key strategic locations and assets, eliminate opposition and capture or destroy enemy territory and strongholds. If anything these changes should greatly IMPROVE immersion with or without Drop Deck re-spawn.

Incorporating game assets that have already been developed in game for Quick Play to improve Faction Play with very little additional development cost or time makes perfect sense.