70 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Kuaron, on 10 September 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

But this wheel would work and make sense, contrary to GH and ED.

Rly??

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar
This thing here. 4 erppc=60 heat, with 30 dhs it should be able to fire them heat neutral, however with 30 heat capacity, it wont be able to fire 2.

Mech which was designed to fire its weapons in alpha, cant fire half of its weapons at once... in what universe does that make logical sense??

"While lacking in secondary weapons, the massive volume of heat sinks ensures that barring combat damage the Hellstar can fire its main weapons as fast as they can recharge." from ******* fluff.

Edited by davoodoo, 10 September 2016 - 08:12 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

kapusta11, on 10 September 2016 - 12:23 AM, said:

But you don't fire weapons in MWO as often as you do in TT and that's the whole point. Where is this "misrepresentation" you're talking about?

You're comparing apples to oranges. You're saying the TT system doesn't require heat management, while MWO does, and you're implying that that has something to do with how the two systems use heat. That's your misrepresentation.

If you compare apples to apples, or oranges to oranges, the results are FAR different than what you were presenting.

The heat systems in TT and in MWO are nearly identical, with the exception of what MWO does with TT's 30pt penalty scale and the lack of resulting penalties.

All other factors being equal, they perform exactly the same.

You used an example to say, "see, in TT this mech is heat neutral, and in MWO it's not." But in fact, if you fire at the same rate in BOTH - once every 10 seconds - they're BOTH heat neutral. The only reason it is not heat neutral in MWO is that the game allows you to fire faster than in TT. It has nothing to do with the heat system. And as I showed, if you could fire as fast in TT as you can in MWO, you end up with the same results there too, mostly. TT just punishes you a LOT more for it.

Utilizing the TT system in MWO would NOT allow mechs to be heat neutral anymore than they already may be. You completely misrepresented the situation. And I believe that misrepresentation was intentional.

I'm just not understanding what the intent behind it is, is all. And that's not intended to be a dig against you... I'm just trying to correct the misrepresentation and provide the correct information.

Some folks have been - either through mistaken understanding of the mechanics or intentional misrepresentation - using this concept of "TT allows powerful mechs to be heat neutral!" as a reason not to use the TT heat system in MWO. That's the sort of false info I take great exception with.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 10 September 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[davoodoo]

ScarecrowES, on 10 September 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

But in fact, if you fire at the same rate in BOTH - once every 10 seconds - they're BOTH heat neutral.

Not exactly.

If we use shs for example or only engine dhs then yes, but then external dhs are 1.5 so they are 25% less effective than tt ones. Also skills(which dont make up for losses on dhs) give bit more heat efficiency.

Except that youre right.

Edited by davoodoo, 10 September 2016 - 12:01 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

davoodoo, on 10 September 2016 - 12:00 PM, said:

Not exactly.

If we use shs for example or only engine dhs then yes, but then external dhs are 1.5 so they are 25% less effective than tt ones. Also skills(which dont make up for losses on dhs) give bit more heat efficiency.

Except that youre right.

From a practical perspective, once you include skills, it makes up for the lower values on DHS.

TT, 20 DHS is 40 cap with 30 penalty = 70 total heat with 4pts/sec dissipation.

MWO (with skills) 20 DHS is 76.8 total heat with 3.91pts/sec dissipation.

Heat cap in MWO is 9% over TT heat cap, even with 1.whatever double-dubs modifier. And dissipation is only 2.3% lower.

Where MWO gets especially wonky is how its 1.whatever double-dubs modifier gives huge buffs to mechs with low heat caps.

In TT, a mech with 10x DHS gets 20 +30 = 50 total heat and a 2pts/sec dissipation rate. It gets 60 total heat and 2.3pts/sec dissipation in MWO. That's a nice lil buff for light mechs, but it does the same thing for a Kodiak-3 too. Seeing why that one performs as well as it does?

Skills buff DHS proportionately less as you put more and more on, but you STILL have to put on an astonishing 42 total DHS on a mech before the buff you receive to doubles in MWO is lowered to their actual TT value. Effectively, MWO gives you more heat to work with than TT does. At the minimum 10 doubles, the game actually gives you, basically, 5 free additional doubles.

[Kuaron]

davoodoo, on 10 September 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Mech which was designed to fire its weapons in alpha, cant fire half of its weapons at once... in what universe does that make logical sense??

You mean a universe distinct from the tabletop?
Because there is no "alpha" in the TT in the sense we have and fear it in MWO, i.e. targeting the same component.
Even your fluffy quote tells nothing about volley-firing them.

Chainfiring your ERPPCs is perfectly possible, and with enough heat dissipation even as long you wish.
No one is saying that DHS which don't contribute to heat capacity would have to stay at x1,5 dissipation, of course.

[ScarecrowES]

Kuaron, on 10 September 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

You mean a universe distinct from the tabletop?

Careful with this. MWO is, in no way, distinct from TT. It uses TT build mechanics, TT weapon stats, and a semi-TT heat system. You can argue, and successfully so, that where MWO deviates from its parent systems is what causes all the problems in the game.

Balance in TT is carefully regulated with build rules, weapon rules, and heat rules all playing off each other. As we readily see in MWO, when you deviate from those rules even a little, it has BIG consequences on the game. You mess with one a LOT, it's going to effect the others a LOT, and you'll need to change the others a LOT to bring balance back. You'd have to do a whole lot more to bring weapon and build balance back to center if you drop heat cap to a pure 30. You'll never find balance again, pure and simple.

[Tarl Cabot]

Having just a 30 HS cap would not really work in MWO but the current setup should be curtailed. Be it raising the base cap but lowering the ability of how actual heatsinks increases the cap.

[Pjwned]

Kuaron, on 10 September 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

Alright.
But then there is no point in complaining to not being able to volley-firing all four.
If one fires them one by one, dissipating a part of the heat in between and after 10 seconds and four shots ending up with a heat warning, is how it should be in MWO to best suit the TT.

So yes, in this case we should reduce the the heat capacity in the game largely.
We only need to introduce a limitation for ballistics to keep them balanced to the hotter energy weapons. Btw, how is this part solved in TT? Solely by armour limitation?

There wouldn't be any point in bringing 4 ER PPCs if you're only ever going to fire them 1 by 1. If the heat capacity in MWO is slammed down to 30 with no other changes to compensate for that, then you would need to wait so long for heat dissipation that by the time you could fire an ER PPC again safely the first one would be ready to fire again, making it pointless to bring more than 1 ER PPC.

You're not understanding that heatsinks in TT effectively added extra heat capacity which is what made it possible for something like a stock Warhawk to fire 4 ER PPCs without shutting down, and when you say to throw out that extra heat capacity then you're demonstrating that you don't know what you're talking about.

[davoodoo]

Kuaron, on 10 September 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

You mean a universe distinct from the tabletop?
Because there is no "alpha" in the TT in the sense we have and fear it in MWO, i.e. targeting the same component.
Even your fluffy quote tells nothing about volley-firing them.

Chainfiring your ERPPCs is perfectly possible, and with enough heat dissipation even as long you wish.
No one is saying that DHS which don't contribute to heat capacity would have to stay at x1,5 dissipation, of course.

Only place where mwo deviates from tt is pinpoint accuracy and torso twisting.

Ppl who wrote tt rules werent ******** enough to allow for targeting of specific part without significant penatlies(targeting computer and +3 to hit roll).

Btw hellstar 2 description
"A sub-variant of the original, while the removal of five heat sinks forced MechWarriors to rely on Volley fire to avoid overheating, the inclusion of a Targeting Computer in turn made those shots deadly accurate"
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Volley_fire
You basically skip firing cycle on a weapon.

ScarecrowES, on 10 September 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

-snip-

But then 30 dhs, will give you 93.6 capacity and 5.52dissipation.
You get bit more capacity, but less dissipation from this.

Edited by davoodoo, 11 September 2016 - 04:10 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

davoodoo, on 11 September 2016 - 04:09 AM, said:

But then 30 dhs, will give you 93.6 capacity and 5.52dissipation.
You get bit more capacity, but less dissipation from this.

Extremely minor differences in the end. Pretty much the same practical result in most circumstances.

[Kuaron]

@ Dacoodoo: Sorry, I didn't know "volley fire" was already a set term in the TT.
So how did it work?
(The Sarna link mainly explains how it does not work, doesn't it?)

In any case, dealing the damage to the same point is the only point of "alpha" in MWO. If it is simulated in the TT by a penalty, it fits perfectly well: It would reflect (in an adjusted MWO) the difficulty of hitting with your second weapon group, after cooling down a bit, the same component you hit with your first.

@ Pjwned:

Pjwned, on 10 September 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

You're not understanding
...
you're demonstrating that you don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah... no.
I already explained why firing in the same turn in TT is not the same as firing in one alpha in MWO. If you don't get it, read again please.

[ScarecrowES]

Kuaron, on 11 September 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

@ Dacoodoo: Sorry, I didn't know "volley fire" was already a set term in the TT.
So how did it work?
(The Sarna link mainly explains how it does not work, doesn't it?)

In any case, dealing the damage to the same point is the only point of "alpha" in MWO. If it is simulated in the TT by a penalty, it fits perfectly well: It would reflect (in an adjusted MWO) the difficulty of hitting with your second weapon group, after cooling down a bit, the same component you hit with your first.

@ Pjwned:

Yeah... no.
I already explained why firing in the same turn in TT is not the same as firing in one alpha in MWO. If you don't get it, read again please.

On the other hand, we have a mechanic in MWO that is designed to account for the manner in which weapon mechanics differ from weapon to weapon from their TT versions - cooldowns. This is the mechanic that allows PGI to distinguish between the value of different types of damage and how they're done.

Cooldowns, spread, duration... these are things that MWO has that TT doesn't. Most often, with MWO weapons, it's extremely difficult to place all damage into a giving component, due to their different mechanics. MWO also replaces randomized hit mechanics with skill-based mechanics.

Once again, the heat system in either TT or MWO has ONE job, and one alone... combat pacing. That's it. It's not concerned about balancing out different types of damage, or the way that damage is done, or trying to reach a sense of balance between the real value of output from weapon to weapon. We HAVE mechanics for that, and it has nothing to do with heat.

Where ED fails above and beyond GH is it tries to use weapon balance mechanics to place some restraint on combat pacing. You're mixing two completely different systems and it wreaks havoc on balance.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 11 September 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[Pjwned]

Kuaron, on 11 September 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

@ Pjwned:

Yeah... no.
I already explained why firing in the same turn in TT is not the same as firing in one alpha in MWO. If you don't get it, read again please.

I already explained pretty clearly how your suggestion would make it more or less pointless to bring more than 1 ER PPC on a mech, so if you want to ignore that then keep being clueless.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

Cooldowns, spread, duration... these are things that MWO has that TT doesn't. Most often, with MWO weapons, it's extremely difficult to place all damage into a giving component, due to their different mechanics. MWO also replaces randomized hit mechanics with skill-based mechanics.

(coughs...).. Solaris boardgame had cooldowns (delays...) with 2.5sec turns instead of 10sec turns....

[Kuaron]

@ Scarecrow:
The heat system is a game mechanic and it can be used for whatever one can make it of use.
It already has two jobs, the other being the "cost" of ammo-independent damage. I'm not sure if you are really trying to deny it.
But please, explain without strawmen: So what exactly does worry you on the suggestion?

@ Pjwned:
You didn't. You just stated it. Maybe you actually believe what you say and that's why you never play assault Mechs who can carry more weapons than they use in one alpha. In this case you'll have to give up on most of even those you play after ED caps alpha at 30 dmg.

But let's put away the polemic and try some numbers with your PPC example.

Let us assume the goal is indeed to reduce alpha, as stated by the ED design notes. Let us assume ballistic weapons get one of the penalties suggested above and this way will stay balanced to energy weapons.
Then you can have weapon groups of 3 IS-PPCs or 2 C-ERPPCs (changed according to PTS) for 30 pinpoint or regular lasers spreading their ~40 dmg (for about the same heat) over their duration. No balancing problems here, in the first place.

Now about the 4 ERPPC Mechs:
Most people suggesting reducing the heat capacity bonus of DHSs also wont to balance it by heat dissipation.
If you stay totally true to TT, which means +0 heat cap and +0.2 heat dissipation for each DHS, the 30 DHSs of the Mech davoodoo quoted above would need 5 seconds to cool it down from 30 to 0 heat. This fits the TT 10 seconds cooldown mechanic: This way you can fire your 2 weapon groups à 2 ERPPCs each once and be cool again after 10 seconds.
Ofc it doesn't fit with weapon cooldowns much faster than 10 secs, for a TT-like game dynamic you'd also have to adjust them around the 10 seconds, mainly doubling the MWO cooldown values (otherwise you could fire the same weapons in a TT-round twice making duplicate weapon groups obsolete).

If the goal is to keep the current MOW cooldowns and dynamic but still give 4 ERPPCs a raison d'etre:
This could be achieved by a compromise. Let DHS add 0.5 heat cap.
This way the 30 DHS + 4 ERPPCs Mech could fire his entire arsenal in 2.5 seconds (instead of 5), but would still be too hot to fire again the same amount of weapons immediately after their cooldown cycle (without shutting down).
This fits the demand from above, to be fire all four in one TT round and be hot in the next one, but not shut down automatically.

If, instead, the goal is to sustain 4 ERPPC fire with 30 DHS without running hot:
Just increase the heat dissipation of DHS outside of the engine largely. This way the average Mech would still need it's time in hiding to fully cool down, but a 30 DHS monster that really commits it's build on it could fire non-stop.

Anything I forgot?
But you see, goals and problems have their solutions if one puts away the fears.

Edited by Kuaron, 11 September 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Tarl Cabot, on 11 September 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

(coughs...).. Solaris boardgame had cooldowns (delays...) with 2.5sec turns instead of 10sec turns....

Solaris is... Solaris. If most people can't understand the basic mechanics of BT, Solaris might as well written in Sand Scrit.

[ScarecrowES]

Kuaron, on 11 September 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

@ Scarecrow:
The heat system is a game mechanic and it can be used for whatever one can make it of use.
It already has two jobs, the other being the "cost" of ammo-independent damage. I'm not sure if you are really trying to deny it.
But please, explain without strawmen: So what exactly does worry you on the suggestion?

The heat system has no hand in weapon balance. The heat system, as I've said, is a combat pacing mechanic. It is the practical limit for total damage output based on your build and your actions. That's IT.

Look at the build system. Damage, range, investment. One way or another you're going to pay for your output. You want low weight and low crit weapons, they're going to run hot proportional to damage and range... you'll pay for that with increased investment in heat sinks. You want low heat weapons? You're going to pay for that in weight and crits directly. Every weapon in BT is balanced around what you get from the weapon vs what you have to put into it.

The heat system places pressure on the build system for players to self-limit their output. You have to have enough heat sinks for the weapons you're mounting. The reality is, under the TT system, your output is set from the moment you finalze your build.

In TT, that output is strictly imposed - 10-second turns, 1 action per turn.

In MWO, that output is strictly imposed - and in exactly the same way it is imposed in TT... however, within the strict imposition, MWO allows more. Rather than 10-second cooldowns across the board, every weapon receives a cooldown used as a means to balance its associated mechanics and the "value" of its damage. That's a means of balancing the weapons, though. It has no actual effect on on the end result of damage over time. All it does is allow more damage to be done up front at the cost of more waiting later.

But don't confuse it... even with ED, you're still operating within the confines of the TT heat system.

So as you see, the systems and mechanics above... build, weapons, heat... are all specifically chosen and tuned. Whenever you start messing with one, you'll mess with the rest.

So you want to drop heat to 30? OK, so let's explore that. The minimum heat cap, 10 SHS, is 40 in either MWO or TT. You want less than the minimum. The build system establishes balance based on output vs investment. Part of that investment includes heat sinks for hot weapons to balance their small weight and crit investment proportionally. Your proposal not only effects output, which I believe you intended, but also completely throws off the build system.

As demonstrated above, weapons are balanced a specific way. One way or another you pay for their output. You've now completely killed that methodization for balance. You pay for the heat sinks necessary to use energy weapons, but you've now made those sinks worthless. What do you propose to put in its place to restore balance? Because the proposed 30pt heat system allows a Kodiak-3 to mount 4xUAC/10 and double-tap them just fine. It also allows any number of gauss rifles to be fired with a PPC or two just fine. SRMs too. All you've done is mess with energy builds by taking away a full pillar of investment weapon balance.

BT has worked successfully the way it has for several decades without any revisions to its basic model. Everything is carefully chosen. So please show me your carefully chosen mechanics to offset your arbitrary and poorly-understood change.

[Pjwned]

Kuaron, on 11 September 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

Ofc it doesn't fit with weapon cooldowns much faster than 10 secs, for a TT-like game dynamic you'd also have to adjust them around the 10 seconds, mainly doubling the MWO cooldown values (otherwise you could fire the same weapons in a TT-round twice making duplicate weapon groups obsolete).

Ah, silly me for not realizing that we have to completely ******* the cooldowns on every weapon too to compensate for your stupid idea.

Any other ridiculous stipulations that are needed? Maybe we should just turn the whole game into a literal Tabletop simulator to satisfy you?

Quote

If, instead, the goal is to sustain 4 ERPPC fire with 30 DHS without running hot:
Just increase the heat dissipation of DHS outside of the engine largely. This way the average Mech would still need it's time in hiding to fully cool down, but a 30 DHS monster that really commits it's build on it could fire non-stop.

If you have to make some sort of compromise like that then you're admitting that there's a problem with your idea, which I actually already demonstrated what the problems are and why they're a problem.

I'm done arguing this dumb garbage because your idea is terrible, you have to come up with ridiculous stipulations to compensate for your absolutely garbage idea, and you don't listen to anything because you have an agenda to push so there's no point in continuing.

[762 NATO]

Please, yes please, let's have a TT true system that you can fire a Guass Rifle or AC20 as often as a SPL or AC2 or MG. I dare ya. Then I will challenge any comers to 1v1. Throw in some hitreg issues where you aim at CT and hit an arm. There goes this game. No one would ever play it. Keep on whining and enjoy what little broken game you have to feed your BattleTech addiction/FPS until someone else does it better. There will not be a MW 2-4 for a long time (and honestly didn't like 4 after having played every. single. BT game on computer.)

Cheers!

[ScarecrowES]

762 NATO, on 11 September 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

Please, yes please, let's have a TT true system that you can fire a Guass Rifle or AC20 as often as a SPL or AC2 or MG. I dare ya. Then I will challenge any comers to 1v1. Throw in some hitreg issues where you aim at CT and hit an arm. There goes this game. No one would ever play it. Keep on whining and enjoy what little broken game you have to feed your BattleTech addiction/FPS until someone else does it better. There will not be a MW 2-4 for a long time (and honestly didn't like 4 after having played every. single. BT game on computer.)

Cheers!

I literally don't know what just happened here.