203 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 12 September 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Cooldowns have absolutely no effect on combat tempo.

This is incorrect, they do have an effect on tempo, they limit how fast bursts can be repeated because not everything is controlled by heat. Can you imagine if I could fire three alphas on my cSPL cheetah within 3 seconds and then runaway to cooldown? Cooldown can alter play styles/roles. Don't get me wrong, heat does definitely play a heavier part in tempo, but cooldown is involved, it is not just a heat issue.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 12:25 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

This is incorrect, they do have an effect on tempo, they limit how fast bursts can be repeated because not everything is controlled by heat. Can you imagine if I could fire three alphas on my cSPL cheetah within 3 seconds and then runaway to cooldown? Cooldown can alter play styles/roles. Don't get me wrong, heat does definitely play a heavier part in tempo, but cooldown is involved, it is not just a heat issue.

No cooldowns for MWO weapons exceed those of the 10-second TT turn. You are still beholden to those rules regardless of what the MWO cooldown is. The only way this would not be true is if your cooldowns were LONGER than in TT.

MWO is still using a heat cap and dissipation rate that dissipates the entire heat cap of a mech - every build - over the same 10-second period as TT.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 12 September 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

MWO is still using a heat cap and dissipation rate that dissipates the entire heat cap of a mech - every build - over the same 10-second period as TT.

Yes, because they wanted heat to actually build up over time, still doesn't mean cooldowns don't play into tempo of a match in MWO.

[FupDup]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

I think I'm going to prepare an Excel spreadsheet sometime later today to figure out when the PTS4 mech is equal in dissipation to the equivalent PTS3 mech.

Here she is:



Green highlights represent which iteration of DHS is the superior one, and yellow is the equilibrium point.

The comparison with 2x Elites was more drastic than I expected.

Judging by the "difference" column, it seems that the PTS4 DHS with 2x Elites can theoretically catch up to PTS3, but it would take an extremely long time (we run out of slots and tons long before that point can be reached).

Edited by FupDup, 12 September 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

Here she is:

The comparison with 2x Elites was more drastic than I expected. Judging by the "difference" column, it seems that the PTS4 DHS with 2x Elites can theoretically catch up to PTS3, but it would take an extremely long time (we run out of slots and tons long before that point can be reached).

Can we see what it would take if DHS were normalized to -0.2 given the skill changes, because I'm lazy?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

Let's add them back in.

PTS3: 3.5 * 1.15 = 4.025

PTS4: 3.4 * 1.05 = 3.57


Also, keep in mind that not all mechs are going to have 20 DHS. Many mechs have fewer. Mechs with fewer sinks are affected by the changes more than the heatsink-boats because they don't get as much benefit from the external DHS counterbuff.

I think I'm going to prepare an Excel spreadsheet sometime later today to figure out when the PTS4 mech is equal in dissipation to the equivalent PTS3 mech.

This is a buff.

*quote used in a different game that I'm playing instead of MWO*

However, let's be honest... PTS4's HS is a nerf.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

Yes, because they wanted heat to actually build up over time, still doesn't mean cooldowns don't play into tempo of a match in MWO.

It absolutely DOES mean that. Essentially, MWO lets you fire more than once per "turn" because the cooldowns are shorter. However, the time it takes you to recover is exactly the same.

You can Max out your heat cap faster, but it takes exactly the same amount of time to reset. You are still stuck playing by the 10-second turns of TT in MWO.

You could set all cooldowns to 2 seconds, and it would have no effect on your average damage output.

Conversely, if you could only fire your weapons once-over second in MWO, you'd have the same output still, but all of your mechs would be "heat neutral".

Edited by ScarecrowES, 12 September 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Deathlike]

ScarecrowES, on 12 September 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

It absolutely DOES mean that. Essentially, MWO lets you fire more than once per "turn" because the cooldowns are shorter. However, the time it takes you to recover is exactly the same.

You can Max out your heat cap faster, but it takes exactly the same amount of time to reset. You are still stuck playing by the 10-second turns of TT in MWO.

You could set all cooldowns to 2 seconds, and it would have no effect on your average damage output.

For energy weapons, it wouldn't affect too much, but for Dakka, this would be super limiting, since heat is not the issue at that point.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 September 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Hey, Fup, for some interesting Excel fun, start looking at SHS vs DHS numbers on PTS4. (not comparing to PTS3, don't care about that; we've already established it's lower) Just look at how much closer one comes ahead with SHS vs. DHS. I'm having a really odd time with a SHS Wubshee right now =)

Cap and dissipation both. It's quite interesting.

Well, interesting for me anyways.

Edited by Wintersdark, 12 September 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Deathlike, on 12 September 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

For energy weapons, it wouldn't affect too much, but for Dakka, this would be super limiting, since heat is not the issue at that point.

I don't understand... what is that comment in relation to?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 12 September 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

You can Max out your heat cap faster, but it takes exactly the same amount of time to reset. You are still stuck playing by the 10-second turns of TT in MWO.

This is where the higher heat cap has actually had a hand in changing though, because you might actually have to wait longer due to the higher heat cap, which means you can do more damage with a period of time before actually getting heat capped.

ScarecrowES, on 12 September 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

You could set all cooldowns to 2 seconds, and it would have no effect on your average damage output.

Correct, damage output would be unaffected, but that does not mean how you play mechs would be the same, especially where cooldown matters, long range versus a push.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 12:50 PM.

[Wintersdark]

ScarecrowES, on 12 September 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

I don't understand... what is that comment in relation to?

I imagine:

Quote

You could set all cooldowns to 2 seconds, and it would have no effect on your average damage output.

Because heat is NOT the limiting factor for all weapons, it's only really the limiting factor for energy weapons.

[MechaBattler]

People asked for it. And either way its not set in stone. People act like it's the end of the world. They'll change it again next week.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

Can we see what it would take if DHS were normalized to -0.2 given the skill changes, because I'm lazy?

blob:http://imgur.com/297b2524-3aca-40a0-b907-ec195dc471e3
blob:http://imgur.com/297b2524-3aca-40a0-b907-ec195dc471e3


Equilibrium at 15 and superiority at 16+, comparing PTS3 Elite to Universal 2.0 with 5% Cool Run.

Edited by FupDup, 12 September 2016 - 01:01 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

The equality point is 21 and at 22+ the Universal 2.0 Dubs are superior (with 5% Cool Run).

Unless I'm reading this wrong, the equality point against universal 2.0 dubs with the skill nerfs is actually 15 (3.16 vs 3.15).

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

Unless I'm reading this wrong, the equality point against universal 2.0 dubs with the skill nerfs is actually 15 (3.16 vs 3.15).

And it looks like I used basic Universal 2.0 rather than Elite. Derp. Now I has to edit it. :\

EDIT: Corrected picture is up.

Edited by FupDup, 12 September 2016 - 01:01 PM.

[Wintersdark]

I suspect that the lack of increased dissipation here (and indeed a slight dissipation nerf) are because PGI wants lower overall damage output, but didn't want to further globally increase cooldowns.

So, along Scarecrow's reasoning above, they simply nerfed dissipation a bit to forcibly reduce maximum damage output. Not flawless,though, as dakkaboats are not going to care much.

This is just a theory as to their thinking, though, nothing more.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 12 September 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

I suspect that the lack of increased dissipation here (and indeed a slight dissipation nerf) are because PGI wants lower overall damage output.

They just didn't want smaller alphas to be more spam-able. Reducing heat capacity has the effective of increasing the time you need to wait for alphas that previously would be able to consecutively fire 2 alphas (old Space Whale, old Laser Knight) but without touching the actual DPS of those builds (or any build for that matter). They do need to redo the dissipation rates though because as is, this is a nerf.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 September 2016 - 01:16 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 September 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

They just didn't want smaller alphas to be more spam-able. Reducing heat capacity has the effective of increasing the time you need to wait for alphas that previously would be able to consecutively fire 2 alphas (old Space Whale, old Laser Knight) but without touching the actual DPS of those builds (or any build for that matter). They do need to redo the dissipation rates though because as is, this is a nerf.

Yeah, that's what I mean. I think they meant it to be a nerf, if a small one.

Much like how ED came initially with a 15% global cooldown nerf; that wasn't required for ED to function, but they wanted to reduce overall damage output there, too.

Or maybe they intended to keep things relatively the same despite cutting the pilot skills (actually a very good goal, IMHO; the pilot skills need overhauling anyways so the less they impact things the easier that will be) and screwed up.

Dunno.

I'm just spitballing motivation here, not commenting on whether it was correct or not, or successful or not.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 12 September 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Or maybe they intended to keep things relatively the same despite cutting the pilot skills (actually a very good goal, IMHO; the pilot skills need overhauling anyways so the less they impact things the easier that will be) and screwed up.

This is more likely given how they handled poor dubs and subsequent nerfs to heat gen quirks (resulting in nerfs to several mechs, including the Mist Lynx iirc).