203 replies to this topic

[Kaptain]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

blob:http://imgur.com/297b2524-3aca-40a0-b907-ec195dc471e3
blob:http://imgur.com/297b2524-3aca-40a0-b907-ec195dc471e3


Equilibrium at 15 and superiority at 16+, comparing PTS3 Elite to Universal 2.0 with 5% Cool Run.

Certainly sounds like 2.0 is the way to go to me. In testing grounds on PTS4 my support mauler is struggling hard. 2 LRM10s, 2ultra5s and 6MLs as backup. I usually fire the ultras and LRMs to suppress the enemy until hot where I then choose to fire just the LRMs or Ultras. Now, either weapon system overheats the mech.

This has never been a meta build and its certainly Isn't FLPP either. I like the idea of a reduced capacity but reducing capacity and dissipation is too much. This comes close to what several of us have been asking for. I hope they will give us the opportunity to test 2.0 dissipation rates.

EDIT: Ya... even stripping ammo and armor to cram in 2 additional "doube" heatsinks I no longer have the ability of falling back on my ultras. Completely destroys this mixed weapon support build. Something that has never been considered OP by any stretch of the imagination.

EDIT2: The loss of 2.0 dissipation for engine heat sinks has a very negative impact on mixed weapon Assaults and heavies that were heavily reliant on engine heatsinks for their diversity. Overall I believe that limiting capacity without a true 2.0 dissipation rate hurts mixed weapon builds where one does not have the space to cram in lots of under performing "double" 3crit heatsinks

Edited by Kaptain, 12 September 2016 - 02:01 PM.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 12 September 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Hey, Fup, for some interesting Excel fun, start looking at SHS vs DHS numbers on PTS4. (not comparing to PTS3, don't care about that; we've already established it's lower) Just look at how much closer one comes ahead with SHS vs. DHS. I'm having a really odd time with a SHS Wubshee right now =)

Cap and dissipation both. It's quite interesting.

Well, interesting for me anyways.

Since the numbers are so similar for the most part, I would need a specific number of SHS outnumbering DHS in order to figure out which is better in that specific case.

[davoodoo]

How did you get 50 heat capacity as base??

from what i know its 30 + engine + external

Edited by davoodoo, 12 September 2016 - 01:42 PM.

[FupDup]

davoodoo, on 12 September 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

How did you get 50 heat capacity as base??

Go to Smurfys.

Install any 250+ engine on any mech.

Install any random weapon that generates heat.

Go to the Weaponlab option to view capacity and dissipation.

SHS Heat Cap Tester Build
DHS Heat Cap Tester Build


I'm operating on the assumption that Smurfy's numbers for Cap/Diss are equal to in-game.

Edited by FupDup, 12 September 2016 - 01:44 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Wintersdark, on 12 September 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Because heat is NOT the limiting factor for all weapons, it's only really the limiting factor for energy weapons.

Literally not the case. One way or another, you pay for your damage... Thanks to the build rules and the heat system, your damage output and cooling are linked. Your mech's total output capability is decided in the mechlab... cooldowns have no effect on this. They're almost entirely arbitrary.

You can run the numbers yourself if you don't believe me.

Take a mech of a given heat cap and dissipation, with a given set of weapons, and modify their cooldowns back and forth. Your max output will be the same regardless of the cooldown you choose. This is the case for all weapons.

This is not some sort of obscure concept we're talking about here. This is how both TT and MWO systems actually work. If folks are struggling to understand how the systems actually work, how can we expect them to be able to render a useful opinion on what should be done differently?

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

Go to Smurfys.

Install any 250+ engine on any mech.

Install any random weapon that generates heat.

Go to the Weaponlab option to view capacity and dissipation.

SHS Heat Cap Tester Build
DHS Heat Cap Tester Build


I'm operating on the assumption that Smurfy's numbers for Cap/Diss are equal to in-game.

Ill double check but i could have sworn its 30 + 20 from 10 dhs.

[FupDup]

davoodoo, on 12 September 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Ill double check but i could have sworn its 30 + 20 from 10 dhs.

Well, if that's the case, I would expect Smurfys to display a lower cap for SHS due to their live server heatcap contribution being lower.

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

Well, if that's the case, I would expect Smurfys to display a lower cap for SHS due to their live server heatcap contribution being lower.

Or mistake at smurphys, its not like anyone used shs ever.

Especially that older tools for heat put it at 30+heat sinks
like this one here
http://keikun17.github.io/mwo-viewer/

edit ok idk what to think about it...

Edited by davoodoo, 12 September 2016 - 02:08 PM.

[FupDup]

davoodoo, on 12 September 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Or mistake at smurphys, its not like anyone used shs ever.

I'm going to try it out on the PTS with just the 10 base sinks on a 250+ engine just to make sure.

[ScarecrowES]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

Well, if that's the case, I would expect Smurfys to display a lower cap for SHS due to their live server heatcap contribution being lower.

You can double-check current heat performance here:

https://keikun17.git...heat_simulator/

I don't think any of the heat system variables has changed since this last update.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

Well, if that's the case, I would expect Smurfys to display a lower cap for SHS due to their live server heatcap contribution being lower.

They might've normalized this for engine heat sinks or it is a bug in smurfy.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Since the numbers are so similar for the most part, I would need a specific number of SHS outnumbering DHS in order to figure out which is better in that specific case.

What's interesting though is that it's possible to mount way, way more SHS than DHS on a laser vomit build. IS side, you generally cap out at, what, 20DHS? My Banshee has 30 SHS, and could have more. Looks like at ~27 you'll out-cool a DHS build with 20, and you're always at a higher capacity.

I'm interested in how many laser vomit builds are actually better with SHS now. That interests me.

Edit: Oh, dear. My Banshee has 40 SHS, not 30. Threw it together, misread the Mechlab heat sink count. Oh, that's hilarious.

At 40SHS, it's cooling MASSIVELY more than the ~20 some odd DHS it could mount.

ScarecrowES, on 12 September 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

Literally not the case. One way or another, you pay for your damage... Thanks to the build rules and the heat system, your damage output and cooling are linked. Your mech's total output capability is decided in the mechlab... cooldowns have no effect on this. They're almost entirely arbitrary.

You can run the numbers yourself if you don't believe me.

Take a mech of a given heat cap and dissipation, with a given set of weapons, and modify their cooldowns back and forth. Your max output will be the same regardless of the cooldown you choose. This is the case for all weapons.

This is not some sort of obscure concept we're talking about here. This is how both TT and MWO systems actually work. If folks are struggling to understand how the systems actually work, how can we expect them to be able to render a useful opinion on what should be done differently?

Oooookay.

So, I have a 6xLBX5 Direwolf. It's heat neutral. You're telling me that if I adjust weapon cooldowns, it won't impact damage output? Sure, once you get to the point of not being heat neutral anymore, over a long enough timeframe cooldowns will affect damage output, but until that point cooldowns absolutely impact damage output.

There are LOTS of build possibilities where you're either heat neutral, or your time to overheat is so far ahead that for any reasonable combat cooldown directly impacts damage output.

Your mech's damage output over 10 minutes of firing is irrelevant; what matters is damage output over much, much shorter time frames: Specifically, the amount of time required to output enough damage to kill your opponent.

Cooldowns matter there. Do I need to start linking builds that don't heatcap over a full minute of firing? I've got a lot in my mech bay right now.

Edited by Wintersdark, 12 September 2016 - 02:10 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Wintersdark, on 12 September 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

I imagine:



Because heat is NOT the limiting factor for all weapons, it's only really the limiting factor for energy weapons.

And that is the reason why you cannot control Alphas with just Heat Cap and dissipation. You need ED or some other mechanic to limit dakka, Gauss and missiles. I was in favor of a reload mechanism that increased cooldown time when multiples of the same type weapon system had to be loaded. This simulates overtaxing the Mechs reload system's ability to move ammo around the Mech and into the weapon. ED crudely accomplishes the same thing by charging for the energy to reload or chage up non energy based weapons.

Removing ED and relying strictly on heat cap and heatsink changes while removing restrictions on Laser is just going to escalate Laser to the unlimited power of dakka and cause more power creep which will reduce TTK do that exact opposite of what is trying to be accomplished here.

[ScarecrowES]

Wintersdark, on 12 September 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

What's interesting though is that it's possible to mount way, way more SHS than DHS on a laser vomit build. IS side, you generally cap out at, what, 20DHS? My Banshee has 30 SHS, and could have more. Looks like at ~27 you'll out-cool a DHS build with 20, and you're always at a higher capacity.

I'm interested in how many laser vomit builds are actually better with SHS now. That interests me.


Oooookay.

So, I have a 6xLBX5 Direwolf. It's heat neutral. You're telling me that if I adjust weapon cooldowns, it won't impact damage output? Sure, once you get to the point of not being heat neutral anymore, over a long enough timeframe cooldowns will affect damage output, but until that point cooldowns absolutely impact damage output.

There are LOTS of build possibilities where you're either heat neutral, or your time to overheat is so far ahead that for any reasonable combat cooldown directly impacts damage output.

Your mech's damage output over 10 minutes of firing is irrelevant; what matters is damage output over much, much shorter time frames: Specifically, the amount of time required to output enough damage to kill your opponent.

Cooldowns matter there.

Still doesn't. You will always spend the same amount of time dissipating the heat from your weapons regardless of what you set the cooldown to. Not sure what's so hard about this. The gulf between output and reset is always the same, because you haven't changed even one of the numbers that determine this process.

Your DW is heat neutral at the cooldown it is currently set at, yes? So what happens when you set the cooldown shorter and fire faster? You build heat faster. Instead of being heat neutral, now you're marching to shutdown. The amount of output you do before you get there would be the same as under your heat neutral cooldowns.

It's basic math. There's nothing confusing about this.

[FupDup]

From my in-game tests to figure out heat cap...

A mech with 10 SHS and no skill tree firing a regular PPC is put to 23% heat cap on River City, which I'm pretty sure is a map without any positive or negative heat effects. The mech does not have any PPC or generic energy heat quirks.

The same mech with 10 DHS will be brought to 21% heat cap from firing that 1 PPC.

So it would seem that the 10 DHS still have a teeny tiny bit more cap than 10 SHS on PTS4. Still, a 2% heat difference from firing a single PPC is hard to judge from.

[ScarecrowES]

Rampage, on 12 September 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

And that is the reason why you cannot control Alphas with just Heat Cap and dissipation. You need ED or some other mechanic to limit dakka, Gauss and missiles. I was in favor of a reload mechanism that increased cooldown time when multiples of the same type weapon system had to be loaded. This simulates overtaxing the Mechs reload system's ability to move ammo around the Mech and into the weapon. ED crudely accomplishes the same thing by charging for the energy to reload or chage up non energy based weapons.

Removing ED and relying strictly on heat cap and heatsink changes while removing restrictions on Laser is just going to escalate Laser to the unlimited power of dakka and cause more power creep which will reduce TTK do that exact opposite of what is trying to be accomplished here.

Generally speaking, if you want to control something specifically, YES, there has to be a mechanic for that. TT has several for alphas, the most prominent of which is the penalty system - which makes sure that you, the pilot, REALLY don't WANT to use any of that last 30pts of heat you have available unless you absolutely have to. It also has the much lower (down to zero pts/sec) dissipation rate on your penalty bar if you're still using most of your heat cap.

However, any alpha in TT is pretty much the same as any other alpha... it makes no distinction between this type of damage and that type of damage. Just like cooldowns in MWO, you'd have to add a different mechanic not already in TT if you want to give preferential treatment of some types of damage over others. We do that with cooldowns already for weapon types, but if you want to place limits on how many of a given type of weapon can be fired together, you need an outside mechanic.

I, too, favor something that influences weapon cooldowns under boating conditions... either directly by increasing cooldowns if too many of a type of weapon are fired together... or with that other variable cooldown module idea suggested recently.

[davoodoo]

I tested it on pts, 0 skills highlander 2c, engine only(10), forest colony(100% heat sinks), shs got 42 heat cap, dhs got 56 somehow.
71% firing 2 cerppc with shs
53% with dhs.

Also clan shs ftw... gonna test on is.
Again 0 skills fatlas, engine only forest colony, shs got 56 heat cap, dhs got 60
2 erppc
53% with shs
50% with dhs

Seems that whatever they did to heatsinks they forgot clan shs exist, which get 30+12 from 10 shs like they should.

Edited by davoodoo, 12 September 2016 - 02:18 PM.

[Deathlike]

ScarecrowES, on 12 September 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

Still doesn't. You will always spend the same amount of time dissipating the heat from your weapons regardless of what you set the cooldown to. Not sure what's so hard about this. The gulf between output and reset is always the same, because you haven't changed even one of the numbers that determine this process.

Your DW is heat neutral at the cooldown it is currently set at, yes? So what happens when you set the cooldown shorter and fire faster? You build heat faster. Instead of being heat neutral, now you're marching to shutdown. The amount of output you do before you get there would be the same as under your heat neutral cooldowns.

It's basic math. There's nothing confusing about this.

Heat is a non-issue on most dakka builds. In fact, most of them don't add many (if any) DHS to their builds.

For everything else, you will need heatsinks... even SRMs (you can't brawl indefinitely w/o cooling down).

On TT, you can cool that off.

In MWO, you cannot cool that off quickly enough... because of the nerfed dissipation rates (aka poordubs).

It's as simple as that.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 September 2016 - 02:13 PM.

[Dracol]

Wintersdark, on 12 September 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Or maybe they intended to keep things relatively the same despite cutting the pilot skills (actually a very good goal, IMHO; the pilot skills need overhauling anyways so the less they impact things the easier that will be) and screwed up.

Dunno.

I'm just spitballing motivation here, not commenting on whether it was correct or not, or successful or not.

Hmm.... I wonder if they're working at getting feedback in preparation of a system that can work without the blanket, universally available pilot skills. If the upcoming pilot skill tree rework involves individual chassis (our one can hope, varients) gaining access to specific skills, then it would be logical to get a baseline that does not require pilot skills to achieve the desired game pacing.

[Wintersdark]

ScarecrowES, on 12 September 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

Still doesn't. You will always spend the same amount of time dissipating the heat from your weapons regardless of what you set the cooldown to. Not sure what's so hard about this. The gulf between output and reset is always the same, because you haven't changed even one of the numbers that determine this process.

Your DW is heat neutral at the cooldown it is currently set at, yes? So what happens when you set the cooldown shorter and fire faster? You build heat faster. Instead of being heat neutral, now you're marching to shutdown. The amount of output you do before you get there would be the same as under your heat neutral cooldowns.

It's basic math. There's nothing confusing about this.

I understand what you're saying, but it's irrelevant in a great many practical situations.

Take that heat neutral DWF. Decrease cooldown a bit, until it's just barely no longer heat neutral. Now it overheats after 2 minutes of fire. It has higher DPS output in practice. That, in MWO terms, is still effectively heat neutral, because you can never fire weapons on cooldown for 2 minutes consecutively. Reduce cooldowns more. Now it overheats after 1 minute of fire. Now it does EVEN MORE damage. It's still effectively heat neutral, because you can never fire your weapons off cooldown for a full minute. Whatever you're firing at is long dead, gone, or you're dead.


In practice, on the battlefield, cooldown is critical for mech damage output. The only builds cooldown becomes irrelevant on are energy and SRM builds.

You can run substantial damage output via LRM's or autocannons without coming anywhere near your dissipation capacity. As long as you're not near your dissipation capacity, and even in some cases AT your dissipation capacity, cooldown is the limiting factor on damage output.