71 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 17 September 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

Many palms and faces across the internet made contact when he submitted that post.

Why he means to say is...

"Dual Gauss is fine."

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 17 September 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

The most he's ever said is this:



Many palms and faces across the internet made contact when he submitted that post.

I remember when he said that... *sighs*

[davoodoo]

Deathlike, on 17 September 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

Why he means to say is...

"Dual Gauss is fine."

No, 2 heat capacity per dhs and 0 skills would be tt treshold.
We were closer to it at live than PTS
And 2nd 30 dmg peashooter is exactly that 30dmg peashooter, half minute of precise fire to kill assault. Assuming no heat problems
Too short ttk eh?

Edited by davoodoo, 17 September 2016 - 11:15 PM.

[762 NATO]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 September 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

Because the handful of grognards that want a snails pace game so they can wipe the sweat from their eyebrows between each chainfired medium laser, represent what's best for MWO?

I take great exception to this comment as a member in good standing in GROG. We of the Grog Corps do not believe the meta dictates our fun. We will even resist if nessecary! Bring us a new meta! We will still run the same crap mechs because it is fun to reck big robots.

Cheers!

[davoodoo]

762 NATO, on 17 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

I take great exception to this comment as a member in good standing in GROG. We of the Grog Corps do not believe the meta dictates our fun. We will even resist if nessecary! Bring us a new meta! We will still run the same crap mechs because it is fun to reck big robots.

Cheers!

I wonder what youll do if they nerf everything to the point your crap builds become meta

[762 NATO]

Then the cat will be both alive and dead at the same time.

[DrxAbstract]

davoodoo, on 15 September 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Well **** if thing that spawned license the game is based on and previous games arent relevant to establish balance...

Let me just stop you right there... Previous MechWarrior games had as much to do with BattleTech as MWO currently does: Names, appearance and lore only. Weapons in Mech 1, 2, 3 and 4 all had different mechanics and implementations while Mech Labs were vastly different from one another and from MWO. None of them, not a single one, was well-balanced in respect to Multiplayer (PvP). Not even BattleTech itself is 'well balanced' despite having several mechanisms in place for that sole reason - It's certainly not an example a Video Game should follow or replicate for obvious, repeatedly discussed reasons.

Quote

Nope, no one complaints about archer, ppl dont even complain about splatcat with 72 dmg from srms, maddog with again 72 dmg aint a problem at all.

So because nobody complains about them there's automatically nothing wrong? That's like saying the complaints people do have are all automatically valid - LOL. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But as a matter of point, when people talk about "Big Alphas" they're typically not just referring to pinpoint weapons (Unless they specifically say it).

Quote

**** you could grab 2 lbx20 and 2lbx10 direhwale and fire it without penatlies in gh and no one batches an eye for this 60 dmg cool as **** alpha...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...99067f9a9b6f3b3
This monstrosity will make ppl laugh you out of the match...

And yet fighting one will get you wrecked in short order... See above.

Quote

So clearly its not dmg that is the problem... not when you got 600 armor and 300 or so structure, Case and point, 700 dmg on a mech is considered good score but thats less than what single 100 tonner got...

Again, see above.

Quote

Problem is the fact that armor of mechs is reduced to their most vulnerable part, in most occasions st or ct. 3 60 dmg laser alphas will kill direhwale, when you however grab 60 dmg of srms or llbx then suddenly you can expend all ammo and that direwhale still got a fair chance to stand.

And then we rejoin reality where a 60dmg SRM/LBX Mech expending all those munitions would deal more damage than even an Atlas has Armor+Internals 2 times over, and would likely kill said Atlas before a laservomit would simply because it can fire more often by comparison. I'm personally far more afraid of a laser+SRM spam Timberwolf/Maddog or UAC EBJ than I am a laservomit build of the same chassis because I can easily twist laser damage until they overheat - SRM/UAC/LBX is going to cost me pieces of my Mech and just keeps coming.

Quote

And heat??
Not only our heat sinks are worse than tt ones which basically vented 0.2/s per dhs and had full 2 capacity added per dhs but you then we also have lowered cooldowns so ppl dont stare at each other for 10s with thumbs up their asses and no one buffed heat dissipation due to that...
70 dmg is what you can achieve on heat neutral atlas using standard structure and armor and std engine and single heat sinks.

Pgi gh boogeyman, clan laservomit with 6 erml and 2 lpl, would be heat neutral on tt timberwolf, so saying that we fire too often and for too much dmg is beyond ******** if you look at what pgi pretends this game is

Again, TT and MechWarrior are not, and have never been, the same thing. But entertaining your TBR scenario: That's because it can literally only fire once every 10 seconds. In MWO if said build was used and waited 10 full seconds it would have around 2-3 residual heat (Maybe - Dissipation while firing, etc) and that's only because MWO ER Mlas are 6 Heat instead of the 5 in TT. Otherwise, it would be heat neutral as well. Unlike TT, however, if said MWO Timberwolf wanted to, it could fire again after 7 seconds without shutdown or fire a partial alpha immediately with no shutdown... If the TT Timber did, or even could do that, it'd hit a hefty penalty on the heatscale (Which doesnt exist in MWO)... Which is ignoring the possibility of rolling misses in TT, versus MWO where all of that damage is going to hit somewhere and equate to anywhere from roughly 11%(Assaults) to upwards of 60% (Lights) armor gone regardless of which sections it hits assuming a competently aimed shot within the appropriate ranges... In a game where you dont have Lance(s)/Star(s) of Mechs to command and throw away but a single Mech where said damage-dealing capability is absurdly disproportionate by comparison.

Quote

Battletech game, where nova cant fire single arm without heat penatlies or kgc which cant fire its iconic ac20s without overheating. I fell bad for poor hellstar when it comes out. Hag40 with 40 dmg?? nope cant have that in ed. mrm40?? bastardize it until you can justify 30 ed but no one can justify using it.

Clearly you havnt driven a Nova or KGC lately - Either one, when properly designed, is fully capable of firing, respectively, all weapons from a single arm pod or alphaing 2 AC20s repeatedly without incident. I know for a fact a Nova can do this, and a KGC can alpha 2 AC20s 5-6 times before needing to cooldown... And that's more than enough for a First-Person Shooter/Sim.

Perhaps stop making nonsensical comparisons to BattleTech, which has more in common with MechCommander gameplay than it ever has with MechWarrior. They're not, nor have they ever been, the same thing--They're two completely different styles of game based on the same fictional universe... Which does not automatically mean one must equate to the other in any aspect.

[Aesthetech]

One thing that appears to be overlooked thus far in this thread is the further disparity in heat dissipation this creates between IS and Clan, as this change places more of the burden on external DHS, a mechanic already in the Clans favor:

IS Live:

10 internal DHS + 10 external DHS (about the max for many IS mechs/builds) = 3.4 dissipation (before any modifiers)

IS PTS: 10 internal DHS + 10 external DHS = 3.4 dissipation (before any modifiers)
So it's obvious where they were going here. 10 external DHS tends to be the limit/optimal for the majority of IS mechs and builds, and 10 DHS external DHS is the break even point compared to the old system. Less than 10 DHS, the old system is better. More than 10 DHS, the new system is better. So seems okay, right, if you exclude the concurrent skill and capacity changes? Well...

Clan Live:

10 internal + 15 external DHS (amount that fits on Ebon Jag laser vomit; more fit on bigger vomits): 4.1 dissipation

Clan PTS: 10 internal + 15 external DHS = 4.25 dissipation


I'm not sure that the Clans needed a bigger relative advantage in heat dissipation unless they plan to balance around those figures.

[DrxAbstract]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 16 September 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

Just wondering where IS and C-Gauss Rifle fit in? Sorry... Didnt read the rest of your statement because this question popped up in my mind (and I cant stop but wonder what the answer is). Ill continue reading the rest later.

Well, to me, Gauss is a grey area. It does all the damage in one spot, but it's not simply point and click like PPCs or IS ACs. From my personal experience, I've a much higher chance of successfully taking on an opponent that's using Gauss than PPCs or ACs specifically because of the charge time and it requires diligence comparable to keeping steady aim with Lasers to operate the weapon successfully.

[Wintersdark]

Aposiopesis, on 18 September 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

One thing that appears to be overlooked thus far in this thread is the further disparity in heat dissipation this creates between IS and Clan, as this change places more of the burden on external DHS, a mechanic already in the Clans favor:

IS Live:

10 internal DHS + 10 external DHS (about the max for many IS mechs/builds) = 3.4 dissipation (before any modifiers)

IS PTS: 10 internal DHS + 10 external DHS = 3.4 dissipation (before any modifiers)
So it's obvious where they were going here. 10 external DHS tends to be the limit/optimal for the majority of IS mechs and builds, and 10 DHS external DHS is the break even point compared to the old system. Less than 10 DHS, the old system is better. More than 10 DHS, the new system is better. So seems okay, right, if you exclude the concurrent skill and capacity changes? Well...

Clan Live:

10 internal + 15 external DHS (amount that fits on Ebon Jag laser vomit; more fit on bigger vomits): 4.1 dissipation

Clan PTS: 10 internal + 15 external DHS = 4.25 dissipation


I'm not sure that the Clans needed a bigger relative advantage in heat dissipation unless they plan to balance around those figures.

You're double dipping here.

I assume you're comparing Clan's with 25 DHS to IS with 20 because Clan DHS are smaller than IS DHS (although incidentally the same tonnage), so those clan mechs with +15 DHS are paying 15 tons for them vs. 10 tons for the +10 IS DHS.

But but but, you say, Clan's have more tonnage free because they have lighter weapons! Well, that could be true, but then:

Clan UAC's are burst fire vs. single shell (a substantial disadvantage) because they are smaller and lighter. IS gets a range of very significant quirks, because Clan weapons are smaller and lighter. Clan LRM's are smaller and lighter, but fire in streams rendering them extremely vulnerable to AMS. Clan SRM's are smaller and lighter, but they spread substantially more and do 10% less damage per missile. The list goes on and on.

I get a bit annoyed here, because people use "clan weapons are smaller and lighter" as a rationale for complaining about all sorts of things. They ARE smaller and lighter, but you need to look at the whole package. Clan's pay for those smaller and lighter weapons in all sorts of ways.

[Aesthetech]

DrxAbstract, on 18 September 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

Well, to me, Gauss is a grey area. It does all the damage in one spot, but it's not simply point and click like PPCs or IS ACs. From my personal experience, I've a much higher chance of successfully taking on an opponent that's using Gauss than PPCs or ACs specifically because of the charge time and it requires diligence comparable to keeping steady aim with Lasers to operate the weapon successfully.

Clans also have more opportunity to use endo and/or ferro, or often the combination (depending on whether it's an omni we're talking about or battlemech), and thus in addition to having the lighter weapons they also have greater availability to add extra heatsinks from that tonnage. And greater XL comfort (though I'd point out I run mostly XL in most IS mechs as well).

Clans should have the ability to dissipate heat better. My concern is that the new setup benefits mechs that can take DHS in capacities that only Clans can take advantage of in a greater relative sense to previous. Again, I noted this isn't exactly an issue if the balance leads to this being necessary, or if said balance is based around it.

[DrxAbstract]

Aposiopesis, on 18 September 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

Clans also have more opportunity to use endo and/or ferro, or often the combination (depending on whether it's an omni we're talking about or battlemech), and thus in addition to having the lighter weapons they also have greater availability to add extra heatsinks from that tonnage. And greater XL comfort (though I'd point out I run mostly XL in most IS mechs as well).

Clans should have the ability to dissipate heat better. My concern is that the new setup benefits mechs that can take DHS in capacities that only Clans can take advantage of in a greater relative sense to previous. Again, I noted this isn't exactly an issue if the balance leads to this being necessary, or if said balance is based around it.

That's where it gets tricky: Yes, Clans can typically pack more Heat Sinks and Firepower, but ED works based off damage... A natural conclusion from that would be the inherent advantage in dissipation is countered by ED penalties from higher damage outputs... Which should theoretically bring some semblance of balance between the two technologies.

I... Have no opinion concerning the fairness of such a system based upon that assumption.