71 replies to this topic

[Ustarish]

you cant balance weapons without balacing survivability.

this game dont need more weapons quirks. devs are still trying to increase ttk and you want to buff weapons to decrease it.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ustarish, on 27 October 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

you cant balance weapons without balacing survivability.

this game dont need more weapons quirks. devs are still trying to increase ttk and you want to buff weapons to decrease it.

you kinda missed what i was getting at,
right now IS has Weapon and Structure Quirks, allow more Options,
with this Clan could see some Quirks in the Areas of weapons and Structure Quirks,
id rather have much more Structure Quirks to Weapon less OmniPods,

[The6thMessenger]

That being said, i also think that ballistics should do 200 damage/ton too, that means 100 shots for ac2, 40 shots for ac5, 20 shots for ac 10, and 10 shots for ac 20. It evens out 1/2-ton ammo, as well as the AC20 already weighing 14, 12 for IS is already big and heavy, 140 damage/ton further aggregates it.

Assuming 20 free ton, An AC20 has 840 total damage with 6 tons ammo, AC10 does 1600 damage with 8 tons of ammo, LB10X does 1800 damage with 9 tons of ammo. AC5 does 1800 damage with 12 tons of ammo, 2100 total damage for ac2 with 14 tons of ammo.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 October 2016 - 08:09 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

@The6thMessenger
Yes Totally Agree with the 200Damage per Ton, needs to happen,

the Idea is to Bring Faction Tonnage to Crit Problems Closer,
as so that more Clan Mechs can get more Structure Quirks as the Tonnage / Crit Advantage will no longer Matter,
also this allows IS Lights more Advantages with Ballistics and missiles, which they do need help in,
Ballistic / Missile Is Lights are almost Un Heard of(such as a LCT with 4 Missiles)

[El Bandito]

I vote yes, simply because IS is very lacking with the introduction of Clan battelmechs.

[KursedVixen]

You Innersphere Surats don't need any more buffs.

[Andi Nagasia]

KursedVixen, on 31 October 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

You Innersphere Surats don't need any more buffs.

i say give us this (also im a Clan Player) so Clan mechs can get more in the way of Balance and Quirks!

[Vlad Striker]

IS energy weapon already overpowered... What next?

[Requiemking]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 November 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

i say give us this (also im a Clan Player) so Clan mechs can get more in the way of Balance and Quirks!

They can. As it stands now, IS is already much stronger off thanks to having better performing weapons. WE DO NOT NEED GHOST AMMO TO FIX A BALANCE PROBLEM THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

EDIT: Also, one more thing. The Quirk system is bad, it should feel bad, and it needs to **** off right now. It should have been used to make up for a chassis' deficiencies, but instead it is literally used just as a selling point.

Edited by Requiemking, 21 November 2016 - 10:45 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Unless in game data exists modeling hit frequency/location across all mechs, weapons, and game modes. You can't make this sort of decision. I have never seen anything regarding any sort of data driven modeling by PGI. Game play is developed based on how it feels. What i see driving this question is yes i can put a Gauss on a light mech but i only have 1 ton ammo.... well yea that's your choice. that's the point of tonnage allocation.

Unfortunately mech construction cost functions are completely corrupted. When the game was ported from TT to FPS nothing was modeled. Asking if free ammo would promote more more ballistics use on light mechs it would and FUBAR game balance even more. Hard hitting PP FLD in the hands of a small fast moving target that can place shots into my slow assault.... yea problematic. This question highlights PGI's intent to make 20 ton mechs a viable choice against any 60 - 100 ton mech. Until mech speed, size, hit location/frequency interaction on durability are modeled you cant balance anything. let alone tier II items like ammo vs. heat dissipation. When cool art work gets distorted because hit boxes are altered to improve mech play-ability instead of using an armor co-factor pulled from targeting models the games foundation is questionable. Can you do it... sure but you end up with the last 5 years.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Tombstoner
all what i propose will do is bring IS Tonnage & Crits closer to what Clans share,
Light Clan Mechs Boating Large Ballistics isnt the UM isnt s problem so this shouldnt be a problem,

[Dee Eight]

Its worth pointing out, that under battletech rules...except for MGs, Nail guns and rivet guns, all ammo is only available in full ton lots for battlemechs.

[Karl Streiger]

Quote

@Tombstoner
all what i propose will do is bring IS Tonnage & Crits closer to what Clans share,
Light Clan Mechs Boating Large Ballistics isnt the UM isnt s problem so this shouldnt be a problem,

Well you don't do this with more ammo - you might change the "loadvalue" of a Mech.
The loadvalue is a function of crits tons ammo and heat and can be modified by Mech variants.
I only have a rudimentary function (only work once in a blue moon at it) - but the loadvalu for a IS-ER Large Laser is 16.4 and the Clan ER Large Laser got 17.8.
You have to understand that I don't have Mech Specific values and consider that those weapons need to run heat neutral, the first stat is really necessary the second is unimportant because heat neutrality is something you don't need.

However now you need the DPS and the damage value of each weapon - ideal resulting in multiple Window Of Engagement Values that were sum together.

Those values have to be modified again by the ability to deal damage (precision aka velocity, burn duration)
This should be a data driven value.
But you can also take a rule of thumb value for example for lasers damage/time

So in case of the ER Large Lasers
its - 7.2 to 16.4
or 7.33 to 17.8
as you can see those values are really good balanced. Or at least as long as you only keep one weapon of a kind.

So please for the future, while I really like scanning the Feature Suggestion forums, please don't suggest values you "created" by feel. Use data

[Tombstoner]

Andi Nagasia, on 07 December 2016 - 06:49 PM, said:

@Tombstoner
all what i propose will do is bring IS Tonnage & Crits closer to what Clans share,
Light Clan Mechs Boating Large Ballistics isnt the UM isnt s problem so this shouldnt be a problem,

I , Karl Streiger and others object to changes without data particularly when we see many problems with design symmetry.
I must ask if such a change is warranted. Clan mechs don't have the customization that iS mechs have and is one of the fundamental problems with this game, because IS mechs are effectively omni mechs. IS change equipment clans change hard points.

One of the fundamental choices in mech design involves the interaction between heat, heat sinks and ammo.
Giving IS enhanced ballistics via more ammo interacts with everything. The space each mech has available for equipment is completely disconnected with mech volume as it was in TT. Mech size didn't affect targeting. Your propose is to give IS more space and tonnage vs increasing ammo per ton. That could be quirked if PGI so chose. +5 shots per ton of ammo on selected mechs.

Development and optimization of game play is a lot like a spider web or making changes to the time stream. small changes have unforeseen consequences. The cost functions this game is derived from have a shaky foundation in TT as it is, and that worked for TT to a point. Once MW is ported to FPS your small change affects the balance between heat sinks and energy weapons relative to ammo based weapons. Don't get me started on PPFLD with grouped weapons...

What your proposing is effectively giving IS bonus tonnage. Players will swap out that extra ammo for something else. I would add an additional med laser or more LRM ammo perhaps a heat sink for my energy weapons. Your proposing something min maxers will convert as needed. here's an idea that will blow the minds of most players...

Premium maintenance... for IS only. yup use real cash to get a 10% boost in speed... heat dissipation, re-lode speed/ charge rate and turn speed, radar and weapon range. Clans are presumed to already have this factored in thus getting it for free. IS and Clan balance is FUBAR. clans launched at full strength and balanced/nerfed the day they became available for in game cash. The game was unbalanced for monetary reasons. Clan tech is being hammered into some sort of pseudo balance vs. breaking open the fundamentals and it's pissed off lots of people. clans should get something.

[ToxicSocksWarrior]

LOL

The poll in this post only shows what everybody knew already,
that IS pilots are SLACKERS looking for an easy ride !

XD more ammo my ***..

Tox

[Andi Nagasia]

ToxicSocksWarrior, on 26 December 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

LOL

The poll in this post only shows what everybody knew already,
that IS pilots are SLACKERS looking for an easy ride !

XD more ammo my ***..

Tox

not really, im a mostly clan player, i made this Concept as an idea to help balance Tonnage an Crit Differences,
so in this way, it fits with lore can be added in quite easily, and will help Smaller IS mechs take Missiles ext,

[technopredator]

Clan 'mechs, the worst idea of this game, but since it's not going away here are my 2 cents: 1) get rid of the bingo damage, the Critical System, make it fair for all, 2) Weapon tonage should be the same since C-Weps are more powerful, IS got quirks to balance it, admittedly a tad too powerful, reducing about up to 1/3 or 33% would be more in balance, but still C'mechs would be what they supposed to be according to the storyline: more powerful, 3) engines about the same, if they're more powerful they should weigh more, and/or occupy a 7th slot, 4) Similar for the rest of stuff

Tadaaa, balanced, fun and and maybe IS can win 1/3 of the CW matches, because I'm tired to get my *** handed by OBVIOUSLY superior 'mechs

Edited by technopredator, 02 January 2017 - 03:21 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

the Problem is that changing Weapon Raw Tonnage or Crits from lore values,
isnt something allot of players as well as PGI want, many feel this would remove Faction Flavor,
many Lore Enthusiasts would like to keep the Size/Weight of equipment at TT Valus,
and such balance in other ways, which is what im proposing here,
Edit-

[Buster Machine 0]

As much as I'd like for an IS / Clan balance solution to be implemented, a fix like this would introduce too many variables.

It's best to stick with resizing / quirking chassis and specific components like ER PPCs, rather than rework the ammo system because from what I can tell this proposal would make the IS significantly more OP than the clan.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Problem with the 1 ton of free ammo is that Clan AC's over 5 fire multiple rounds (LBX's excluded) as part of their current balancing while IS ones have non-spread by design AC's. That by lore are supposed to be inferior to the Clans because the old SLDF Tech was preserved. Clan UAC 10 has 4 more chances to jam than IS UAC 5's (yes I know comparing a c 10 to IS 5 but there is no IS UAC10 but bear with me) a C UAC10 fires 2 rounds 3 times and will jam because it doesnt fire 3 rounds then let you fire another 3 with the chance of jamming it fires each shot as if it had all 10 points of damage like IS UAC10 would so yeah we have 3 times the rounds you do but our 3 shots are spread for 3.33 each so we dont even make the full 10 dmg even spread.
I voted no